Battle report: footslogging DW. part 4!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

This time my DW faced Orks.

MY list:

Belial

LIbby: TDA, Lion's roar

2x 5 DWT: AC

2x 5 DWT: Cyclone

3 bikes, 2 MM, AB MM

2x LS Typhoon , HB

I faced a 2 CAD ork army

Warboss, painboy and sluggas on BW

Weirdboy, painboy and sluggas on BW

2x 12 trukk boyz

2x 3 meganobz on trukk

6 tankbustas on trukk

3x warbuggies

every think had rokkits, all boyz had eavy armour.

Maelstrom mission 3.

Objectives were pretty much on center of table which favoured the ork player.

Dploy was something like this:

I kept my distance trying to soften them up a bit. I figured that later on the game, we would get more objectives so I didn't have to rsk so much.. with that said, having pyromancy and a molten beam I risked a Deepstrike with belial , libby and knights in enemy lines, trying to take out 2 trukks and a BW. It would also serve as a distraction. If he split up I could capitalise... Gamble didn't pay because damn night fight cover saves denied me of a glorious molten beam. Lion's roar overheated. yay.

So basically Belail got surronded by 40 orks, warboss, weirdboy andmeganobz the squad endured shooting loosing only 2 knights and endured the charge. Belial challenged warboss, wounded and lukky stikk gave warboss a re.roll ensuring the beast wasn't instakilled. Smiting knights only killed 1 mega nob.. appaling. At least I made him sweet because it all went down to powerfists and Belial was the last to fall, to the last powerfist attacks by the challenging boss. Oh well, live and learn.

In the meantime I was trying to remove some of vehciles so I coudl get to the chewy inside. I did manage to down 2 trukks and a battlewagon, but too little too late.. he got a big point adavntage very early.

I likes my Speeder that kept sending long range shots and earning their keep.

I still struggle with only 5 knights, 7-8 would be perfect for tanking wounds and maintaing eficiency.

It's hard to take out hordes, double hard if they're mechanised hordes. The 4+ save and FNP also helped the orks immensely against shooting.

Stupid moment of the day. I fire 2 frags at ork mob... get 10 wounds and warboss was closest model and tanks all the wounds with his 2+ re-rollable save.

End result lost 10-0. I conceded after my turn 3 because I couldn't get points and the game was lasting for 3 hours and a half already.

Comments, crtics and tomatoes accepted.

[plasmaspam]

Initial thought is that it's a big case of bad luck, given the overheat, cover saves, and the Knights failing to have an impact.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I would say it was all down to bad luck. Dice being dice is something we all have to count when playing, specially with an army that doesn't throw so many dice, so it becomes more crucial to have them do "normal".

 

I'm actually thinking of going double CAD to field a Chaplain in the unit, so the Knights get re-rolls firts turn of combat. I could replace the libby, but he brings so cool stuff to the table.

In any case I think I'll have to cut down the DW squads from 4 to 3 in order to do something about the DWK issue. I feel they are solid performers but thy need help accomplishing it.

[plasmaspam]

Have you considered ditching the DWK's altogether, and swapping for some longer range firepower, e.g. Dreads?

 

I ask this as someone who has never actually fielded any DWK's, so probably amn't qualified to actually advise in this capacity!  I have always ended up fielding other units, as regardless of how solid and punchy they are, I see them (admittedly from a theoretical standpoint) as being a "first strike" or "one hit wonder" sort of unit. They excel at alpha-strike close assault, but after that first strike I've viewed them as being at risk of redundancy.

 

Whenever I've tried building a unit on paper, I've always been drawn back to thinking 1) they need to be in an LR Crusader or Redeemer, and 2) they need to be with a TDA IntChappie.  when you grow the unit to an acceptable size (in line with your own thoughts above), it ends up close to 1000pts for around eight guys in a tank.

 

For me, my lists are always drawn back to 5-man DW squads with podded Mk.V Mortis support.  You clearly have more experience fielding DW than me, but just wondered if this line of thought might be a viable alternative.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Dreadnoughts can be an alternative since the termiantors can also absorb the anti-tank fire meant for them. The biggest downfall is that they can be killed in one shot or tarpitted. Two dreads cost as much as a DW squad but it the DW squad is more resistant to missiles, lasannons and autocannons than a dread.

One thing is certain... they have to be fielded at least in pairs and with venerable upgrade.

 

My problem with DWK is that I know they can perform but they need numbers. If I just replace them by a TDA squad, I would have to buy TH&SS and they wouldn't get the precious T5/WS5. So I would end up with a more expensive squad that wold be less survivable. Goodside is that the regular termies always would have that S8 AP2.

[Gillyfish]

It does sound like you had a bit of bad luck, but I suppose the question would be, without changing the list, what might you have done differently? Would you have tried a more aggressive move, focusing on one flank, destroying the transports and then the squishy insides, or would that not have made any difference?

 

Assuming the DWKs survived combat for an extra round do you think they would have still gone down and would the additional casualties inflicted have made a difference to the way things played out by delaying the involved units from advancing?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The outcome would have been more or less the same even if the DWK's survived. I was still further from the objectives and getting into CC would be bad for me.

If I could do it again I would spread my 3 objectives much farther apart in an attempt for him to split... I lost the game in objective placement thinking if the objectives were close it would be easier for me to hop from one to another. Very far from the truth.

What I could have done with DWK was to DS further away from him but opposite from my main force  and force him to waste a turn chasing me with split up troops., gaining me time to destroy the transports.

[Prot]

As  much fun as I had with Belial and the funky Termie bunch, this is definitely their achilles heel. This is the sort of match up I hated with it. It was either this or Nids. Either of the two felt like an uphill grind.

 

This pretty much shows why I stopped playing a specific wing style army. My most successful lists (and not just ones I won with, but lists that had a feeling of 'if I do the right things, I can definitely win this game'. Those lists always had a good smattering of Multiwing, and always some Greenwing.... the numbers don't lie. I think it's absolutely mandatory.

 

My last game against Orks was 2 days ago... but my last game against a bike list was almost identical to yours... about 2 weeks ago. I used indirect fire to snipe the pain boss. It took forever, but it did happen. The guy giving the FnP MUST go. The squad is way too reslient. I couldn't help but think of how that squad is pretty unsable against some lists... like Tau, or even Heldrakes, and Astra.... but against Dark Angels, elite heavy lists, that kind of army is (not to be too repetitive) your achilles heel.  Honestly I think the only remedy is more multiwing action, less reliance on so much heavy lifting by a few key units.

 

I don't mean to say you can't win this, because you can, but if we're talking about what's going to work in this situation, that is the conclusion I've come to.

 

Nice batrep though! Glad to see some pictures! 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Yeah, Multiwing is the way to play DA to get confortable matchups against everyone. With DW or RW is always more rock, scissors, paper situations. I will still try to get some more games in while I build a multiwing style of list.

[Prot]

Re-reading my post I realized it comes off kind of pompas or perhaps too negative..... What I mean to say is there are a few units that change the dynamics of an 'X'Wing list....

 

Here's an example.... 3 units that get me way more mileage out of Deathwing (heck even my Ravenwing):

 

1. Tacticals in pods. Lack of horde killing power? Add the Deathwind Launcher. Why does this work for me?

  1. Two, potentially three, scoring units in one unit (makes up for small DW numbers in a very easy way)

   2. Depending on my opponent, this unit is good for holding back (allowing DW to advance) or front line tarpit if necessary/precision removal of an enemy unit that my opponent has been sloppy with.

   3. Cheap dakka. Sometimes it's just that... cheap dakka in an expensive list.

 

2. A three Lascannon Dev squad on a Bastion. I've reluctantly admired what this unit does for me game, after game after game. It is not exciting, it is not heroic, nor game breaking, but what it does, every single game is fill a huge gap, and remain a workhorse in every game I've used it. Why does it work?

  1. It's a built in honeypot. No one can ignore this as a unit. If they do, you have unimpeded lascannon retribution, anti flyer, and a deep scoring unit built in one. (Orks hate these things. I see a lot of Dakka jets. Nids even know it can be a problem.)

   2. It frees points elsewhere in your list. THIS is the unit that has built in line of sight in almost every game to that hidden Deathstrike, or Battlewagon, or Hive Tyrant. It adds instant flexiblity to your lists.

  3. No babysitting required. In 7th it's really hard to dislodge a unit from the simple bastion. At end game, learn to time it right, disembark, and grab the objective. 

  4. Deploy it in advance. What I mean by this is during objective placement, keep in mind great spots for your Bastion. In your mind, know that either table edge gives you a good placement for it, next to the marker of choice. You've now got a plan for your easiest objective marker in your zone (provided your opponent hasn't run you over! lol ) This point I have found to be super helpful for both RW and DW based on their need to get in deep.

 

3 Lastly, and the most fickle is the simple Whirlwind. Two would be ideal. But this has to be the cheapest way to 1: add to anti horde, 2: hide a scoring unit deep in your zone, and 3: potentially snipe a hidden unit.

 

I always wanted to try scouts in the above scenarios, but I was always too addicted to wasting points on super high point units that may or may not yield results, just because they look so darn cool. :) Also, last but not least, I always keep in mind that the DA Greenwing is IMHO the weakest of all the tacticals in the game. So I try not to replicate what a 'normal' space marine player would do.... I always geared the greenwing to support the main 'Xwing' of my choice, never steer it. 

 

In a perfect world, I would do none of this. Ravenwing, and Deathwing are so cool, and the hardest part of this adjustment is accepting that they really aren't proficient at doing all the work on their own. Every piece of green you put in, means less termies or bikes. I find that the hardest part to accept EVEN though it does (almost 100% of the time) add to my tactical advantage by doing so.

 

Just my experiences. Maybe not great advice but I will say my compete ability felt notably better once I went this direction.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I understand were you are coming from ut for some of us grumpy old DA players a DW army with green stops being a DW. That's why we stubbornly try to make it work without green. At least now I can put a touch of black without guilt. Next step is to put some green on DW without guilt. Step by step.

Your insight is much apreciated. It's always good to have someone thinking out of the box!