Assassins in your TAC lists? What and how many?

[Kilofix]

So, I'm sure some of us are excited about the new Assassins Detachment (including some of us 'on the other side' who couldn't / wouldn't field Assassins without also having to take GKs).

 

That said, they are very expensive pointswise - and I doubt that a 2K army could afford more than 1 or 2 of them (unless you're planning a really funky list - of which I would like to hear about it).

 

So, I'm trying to get folks thoughts on what, and how many you might be planning on including in your TAC lists (whether SM, BT, GK, IG, Chaos, etc.).

 

Me myself - I'd like to add at least 1 to my TAC but I'm having a really really tough time deciding between Culexus (vs Pskyers), Vindicare (vs hard targets including Seerstar), or Calidus (vs Gunlines with Reserves).

 

The Eversor is cool but I think I have enough straight combat capability.

 

Thoughts? Thanks for the opinions.

[stuckinbermuda]

Back in the days of 3rd ed. I always ran a vindicare although I have a collection of all of the assassins. Being able to field them again now means they will come out of the display case for the first time in many years. The game has changed a lot since 3rd but shooting has remained strong so my first instinct would be to return to my old favorite but the new psychic phase opens up new possibilities as I've seen in recent games. Try each one out and see what works best for you.

[knife&fork]

The eversor is probably the worst of the bunch. He'll need an expensive assault transport and could have benefited from 'rampage' to help him last more than one combat phase. 

 

Other than that I could find myself taking all of them for different reasons. 

[Tiger9gamer]

I love the callidus assassin a lot (and not for the skintight outfit >.>)

 

 

basically it's another unit I can use to hamstring reserves and break down enemies in the backfield. Might even replace my TFC if I have the points for it! =D

[Captain Idaho]

I been thinking of the Culexus as a great addition to any army that hasn't got a dedicated psyker but might come up against serious psychic heavy opponents. Beats a standard psyker who will get overwhelmed by a Grey Knight or Daemon or otherwise annoying psyker cheese army.

[Gentlemanloser]

Two Vindicares to pop tanks and 8 Callidus Assassins.

 

If you go second and don't seize, concede. ;)

 

If you go first, drop 8 AP2 Wound on 4+ Templates, and only get hit on Snap Shots in return.

[L30n1d4s]

I am excited about all four of the assassins in their new iteration (I think GW made all of them competitive, useful, and different from each other, which is GREAT!).... of the four, the one I think I am most excited about is the Eversor, which may be a surprise to some people

I think, at first glance, many see him just as another uber close combat unit, with no real special tactical employment (i.e. why not just use the points to get a squad of Honor Guard, Ogryn, Death Company, Purifiers, etc.?).

Well, taking a look, he has all the "standard" assassin rules (i.e. Fearless, Independent Operative, Infiltrate, Lightning Reflexes, Move through Cover, No Escape) and the standard, very impressive Assassin statline.

In addition to all this, he has the following special rules:

-Bio-meltdown -- Not the craziest of abilities, but against a horde unit (say fearless Orks or Guants or Rippers) he can take bunch of models down with him

-Fast Shot -- Again, not the craziest ability (given that his pistol is good, but not as good as, say Cypher's Plasma Pistol or an Inferno Pistol), but 4 shots a turn at BS8 is still useful at chipping away wounds from tougher units (with Needle Pistol) or taking out extra horde bodies (with Bolt Pistol)

-Feel No Pain -- Not game breaking, but combined with his 3W, 4++, and high WS, it means against the majority of units in the the game, he can really last a while in combat and is not a complete "glass cannon" (except against S8 PFs/TH, of course)

-Furious Charge -- In 6th/7th edition, this is not a game-breaking rule either (especially on a single model), but with his excessively high number of attacks on the charge, it turns his Power Sword basically into a Power Lance... anything with a standard MEQ statline or less is going to be "blenderized" by him when he charges.

Regarding his Wargear, I have already touched on his Executioner Pistol and Power Sword. Additionally, he has Melta Bombs (for anti-vehicle duties) and a Sentinel Array, giving him almost guaranteed hits with his pistol on Overwatch.

Finally, and perhaps most significantly, are his Neuro-Gauntlet and his Frenzon Drugs, providing a basically auto-wound CCW (but no AP) and the ability to charge 3D6"/get 3 bonus attacks on the charge, respectively. The Neuro-Gauntlet gives him the option to go after high toughness model (say Wraithnights, Nurgle DPs, all kinds of MCs) and have a solid chance of doing some damage, as well as enabling him to rip through squads with lots of numbers and low saves (say Orks, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar) with basically guaranteed (97% succeess rate) of wounding everything he hits. This alone, coupled with his high number of attacks and Hero level WS/Initiative, makes him exceptionally versatile.

So, Frenzon... ah, Combat Drugs, what possibilities they open up. Pretty much every other unit in the entire game, even cavalry, beasts, bikes, jetbikes, Ravenors, and Harlequins, are limited to a maximum of a 12" charge range, some with re-rolls (like Fleet) and some not. The only exceptions are units like Orks when using Waaaghh (can combine run and assault for a single turn to create, for all practical purposes, 3D6" charge range) and one of the rulebook WL traits, which enable the WL and his unit to add +1" to their charge range.

Back to the Eversor and his Frenzon... with his 3D6" charge range (average of 11" charge, max of 18" charge), he gives a commander a whole new menu of options. For example, place the Eversor in a friendly vehicle with Assault Vehicle rule (i.e. Land Raider, Stormraven on a Skyshield Landing Pad) during deployment. Turn 1, move the vehicle 6", disembark the Eversor another 6", then roll 3D6" for his charge in the assault phase... with just a slight above average roll (12" or more), he will be able to successfully assault an enemy unit turn 1, before they even have a chance to move or shoot themselves. What does this mean? Well, for super-shooty units like Centurions, Missileside Teams, AM Blob Squads, Riptides, Zoanthrope Broods, Loota Boys, or Dark Reapers, that means that they are tied up in combat immediately and, hence, unable to shoot. While Eversors have lots of attacks, against many of these units he will not be able to kill them in a single round (or even several rounds), but since most of them are not strong at CC, they will not be able to kill him either. That means that, for multiple turns, you can completely neutralize the shooting of your opponent's Earthcaste Riptide or 5 man Centurion Deathstar or the potential of 45 S7 shots from a max squad of Loota boys. Unless these units get CC help from nearby allies, it is quite likely the Eversor will eventually kill them, either through grinding them down with his potent attacks over several turns or, more likely (at least against non-Fearless/non-ATSKNF units), by winning combat and then Sweeping Advance them with his Initiative 7. Another way to take advantage of this first turn charge potential is to use the Eversor on an enemy "force multiplier unit, like Tau pathfinders or Buffmander or an Eldar Jetseer with Mantle of the Laughing God or a Tyranid Venomthrope/Malanthrope providing cover saves to the units nearby or Ulrik the Slayer handing our Preferred Enemy to all Space Wolves within 6".... take these key units out turn 1, before they can begin contributing to the game, and you can kick the stool out from underneath the synergy on which your opponent's army is depending.

Now, this is just one example of how to use the Eversor's unique abilities. Another way to employ him is as a counter-assault unit. Place him inside your fortification/manning your Quad-gun behind an ADL and wait for the enemy to come to you (remember, even though he is close combat focused, he still has BS8, meaning he can be very deadly while manning a weapon station on a fortification.... think of an Icarus Lascannon shooting flyers at BS8 or the Krakstorm Missile from the Fortress of Redemption only scattering, at most, 4" due to his high BS). Once enemy units get close to your DZ, either to get Linebreaker, seize objectives, and/or to assault your units, move the Eversor out 6" and then charge another 3D6"... he can either "save" a unit that the enemy has already assaulted or he can catch an opposing unit (say a squad of BA Assault Space Marnes who just DSed in) with their pants down before they can charge. Remember, in 7th edition units can assault when they disembark from fortifications, so if he is manning the emplaced turret on a bunker, he can still assault. Also, remember, the Eversor is scoring now (like almost every other unit in the game), so if he stays in your DZ to man the Quad gun and serve as your counter-attack unit, he can still claim objectives if no one is near him at the end of game (or turn, if you are doing Maelstrom missions). If the Eversor "counter-charges" a squad of Ravenwing Black Knights and kills several of them before they can strike (remember, he is I7), he can likely absorb the remaining attacks and then eventually destroy them over the next few rounds of combat, all the while protecting your other units from their shooting/assault.

Another example of an innovative use for the Eversor is employing him in conjunction with a very aggressive style army, like Scouting White Scar Bikers or a Drop Pod list. Since he can Infiltrate, turn 1 he can be between 12-18" away from enemy units, depending on LOS. Now, say you have a DP heavy force and bring in 3-4 pods on one of the enemy flanks Turn 1. Troops in the pod disembark, shoot up the enemy, and wait for the counter-attack/shooting response... simultaneously, the Eversor moves 6" up, then runs another D6" and hides behind terrain or out of sight behind one of the newly arrived pods. If the enemy concentrates his combat power on the newly arrived DP units (as is quite likely), the Eversor has a very good chance of being left alone for Turn 1.... Turn 2, as you bring in further waves of DPs and continue your shooting/assault from the recently arrived squads, the Eversor moves in and charges a key enemy unit, either devastating it (if it is MEQ stats or below) or tying it up so it cannot interfere with the rest of your force. This tactic can work in a similar fashion with massed Scouting Rhinos from a Ravenguard force, Deathwing Terminators coming in Turn 1 using their special rules, or massed Infiltrating Scouts. In any of these cases, by providing target saturation, you give your Eversor a very strong chance of getting into position for a turn 2 charge, unmolested. In turn, once he can charge in, he can measurably aid the effectiveness of the rest of your army by tying up and/or destroying very significant portions of the opposing battle group.

One last example is using the Eversor to take out enemy vehicles.... say your opponent is Eldar and is spamming Wave Serpents. Turn 1, he goes first and maneuvers a Wave Serpent with embarked Fire Dragons up to about 16-17" away from your DZ (i.e. out of average charge distance), shoots you up with multiple S6/7 shots, and is waiting to pounce Turn 2, when it can disembark the Fire Dragons and melta your Land Raider or Bunker or Terminators to death. Normally, it would be very difficult to stop this, since he absorbs shooting with his AV12 and 3+ Jink save (Holofields + normal Jink) and he is too far away to charge. Enter the Eversor... with his enhanced charge range, he can move 6" and then charge 3D6", for an average total threat range of about 17", just enough to get the charge off successfully. Against very tough targets, he has his Melta Bomb (i.e. Land Raiders) for a chance at immobilizing or destroying the vehicle, but in this instance, since the Wave Serpent has AV10 rear armor, he can use his S5 attacks on the charge to glance the vehicle to death.... 8 x S5 attacks on the charge, all hitting on 3+, means 5-6 hits, of which 33% will glance AV10, so that is about 2 lost HPs for the Wave Serpent, giving you a decent chance of killing it outright with good rolls, especially if it had already lost a HP to shooting earlier on. Since most vehicles (even including heavy tanks, like most Leman Russ Variants, Necron vehicles, and Preadtor/Vindicator models) have rear armor of AV10, this same tactic can work against them as well, I just used the Wave Serpent as an example, since right now it is one of the most competitive vehicles in the game.

So you can see why I am excited about the tactical possibilities of the Eversor... I am sure you all can think of other ideas that I haven't imagined, but I really do think he is a versatile, capable, and highly synergistic unit to ally with any of the Imperium (or even Chaos ) armies.

[incinerator950]

I'm not really excited about them from the Chaos perspective. CtA makes us not have many options, very little synergy, and a lack of tactical use if you have short deployments or run synergized mech lists.

 

Now this could change later if GW and FW go into Chaos mode, but for everyone else it's great you don't need Inquisition. Except we don't all run an Imperial army. Just remember, it's a dataslate. It's not difficult to write a document online so people can use alternative rulesets.

 

Can easily have made more if they released multiple assassins for everyone instead of milking the barrel scraping by taking it out of one book. Just like Chaos version of scions for traitor guard, eldar pirates, genestealer cults, and traitor or eldar knights. You can guess the rest of where this goes.

 

Yeah though, this sounds like something a lot of people can go for, like Cypher. These guys are less than 200 points no?

[knife&fork]

Yeah, they're in the chapter master bracket.

[SyNidus]

Funnily enough, I actually have a metal Culexus from back in the day, never used him as a Culexus, but I think he might have just found a niche in my Raven Guard. As I'm already infiltrating Shrike and Vanguard and I've got no psykers, he'd make a great psychic defense, especially against screamer and seerstars.

 

The Callidus is also intriguing indeed, with the ability to re-roll seize and negative modifiers to enemy reserve rolls, I can really see this working quite well to ensure that i get one more turn to decimate the opponent's army piecemeal. Against some opponents, especially air Cav, if I can wipe out his army before his reserves, I foresee an interesting possibility for tabling my opponents as early as turn 2.

[Captain Idaho]

Tau will hate the Callidus. :)

 

The beauty about these Assassins is I can shore up the vulnerabilities to the cheesier armies out there yet maintain my own balanced list. My own army struggles against psychic cheese so it's fairly obvious which way I'll go...

[Toldavf]

For me the culexus is head and shoulders above the others his abilities finaly put pay to all those invisibility abusers.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed.

 

And even if you face non-psychic users, he's still pretty capable of killing many an independent character.

 

Tactically I'd use him to hunt psykers I might struggle against. Where that is unnecessary I would choose smaller support squads for him to assault. Life Drain makes him pretty nasty against just about any model outside Eternal Warriors. Again, Tau won't enjoy him.

 

With my Land Raider, I'd run him up the field centrally and ensure he doesn't get shot off the table (not easy to do with his special rules!) Though that shouldn't be an issue considering other targets soaking his attention.

[minigun762]

Funnily enough, I actually have a metal Culexus from back in the day, never used him as a Culexus, but I think he might have just found a niche in my Raven Guard. As I'm already infiltrating Shrike and Vanguard and I've got no psykers, he'd make a great psychic defense, especially against screamer and seerstars.

 

The Callidus is also intriguing indeed, with the ability to re-roll seize and negative modifiers to enemy reserve rolls, I can really see this working quite well to ensure that i get one more turn to decimate the opponent's army piecemeal. Against some opponents, especially air Cav, if I can wipe out his army before his reserves, I foresee an interesting possibility for tabling my opponents as early as turn 2.

Plus it would be fun to use a different model for it each game.

One game It's a space marine scout, next a filthy dark eldar wych and next a traitorous chaos cultist.

[L30n1d4s]

I think the Vindicare will not be as "dramatic" as some of the other assassins in his gamplay, but he may have a more subtle (and potent) impact than people realize.

Given that he usually cannot kill a multi-wound model with a strong invul save in a single round (like, say, the Culexus shooting a high mastery level Psyker or the Callidus in close combat against a character with 2+ saves can), what he can do is slowly "unhinge" an army by slowly and precisely taking out key elements one shooting phase at a time.

Take for example Tau... while the Vindicare is not able to kill a Riptide in a single shot, he can take out Ethereals, Cadre Fireblades, Shadowsun (no cover saves for you Ms. Blue-Frog-Faced-Ninja-with-a-Jumpack-Field Marshal-for-the-Greater-Good!!!), Crises Bodyguards with PENChip or MSS or C2 Node, etc.... since all of these elements contribute to the synergy of the Tau army, being able to selectively remove these elements is a tremendous benefit.

Similarly, against Eldar, you can snipe out Warlocks in Guardian squads, Warlocks from Seer Councils (taking out that one Warlock with a critical Psychic Power, like adding +1 to the Jetseer Council armor save to make it a 2+), or Exarchs from their Aspect Warrior squads (taking the Exarch abilities away with them when you assassinate them). Also, using Shield Breaker you can finish off wounded Spiritseers or Farseers, taking away a very critical piece of the Eldar warmachine.

Against AM, taking out Commisars, Priests, or Primaris Psykers (or Company Commanders/Platoon Commanders in their Command Squads, eliminating the potential for using Orders) can debuff the rest of the army, especially if you are taking out one of these units every single turn. Also, Regimental advisors are another good target for the Vindicare, since they are single models that impact the entire game (i.e. Artillery Bombardment, Reserves manipulation, and Telepathy powers all can make a significant difference in a competitive setting).

Against Tyranids, finishing off already wounded MCs with Hellfire rounds (kind of like an insurance policy if you roll badly with your normal monster hunter units or you almost kill them, but they have a single wound left and your REALLY need that MC to die this shooting phase) can be helpful, but I think where the VIndicare really shines is removing Venomthropes, since his shots ignore their armor and cover saves and, when they die, the entire Nid army loses survivability.

Against Necrons, Crypteks with special Wargear are a great target, as are Lords with Orbs and high points value units, like Destroyers with Heavy Guass Cannons. Another great "debuffing" use of the Vindicare is to use his S10 Turbo-Penatrator rounds to get a penetrating hit on a Necron vehicle, thus bringing down it shielding and so reducing it from AV13 to AV11 for follow-on shooting (say Auto-cannon fire) to finish off.

Against Space Marine (or BA, DA, SW, GK) style armies, sniping out Apothecaries, Banner Carriers (especially DA Relic Banners), Vet Sgt with PW/PFs, and single wound models with critical war gear (i.e. a DA Biker Techmarine with PFG or a WG Pack Leader with TDA, Dual Wolf Claws, and a MB) every game turn can make the difference over the course of an entire battle.... imagine if, by turn 5-6, you have killed all the Sgt models in his squads, meaning that as you fight to contest a critical objective, he can only muster regular S4 AP- close combat attacks (i.e. all the power weapon/power fist wielding units have been sniped) and must rely on Ld 8 (vice Ld 9 from the Vet Sgt) to prevent retreating off the objective.

None of these examples are as dramatic or inspiring as a Callidus infiltrating in and killing an entire Terminator squad with a single (good To Wound rolling required, of course) shot from her Neural Shredder or a Culexus debuffing an Invisible Seerstar and then burning it to the ground with 12+ BS8 S5 AP1 shots in a single Psychic phase or an Eversor getting a Turn 1 charge off (using a Land Raider and his 3D6" assault range) and destroying an entire Tau Pathfinder squad before it can use a single Markerlight, but since the Vindicare can influence the fight from turn 1 (with his 72" range and ignoring all cover saves), this "death by a thousand cuts" approach can truly make an impact over the course of a game, as long as it is executed in coherence with the rest of your army's actions.

Oh, and one more thing ... all of the other three Assassins have to get close to the enemy to be effective, both exposing them to mass enemy shooting (i.e. Rapid Fire weapons, templates, etc.) and meaning that you have to move to where the enemy is at, so they have a hard time claiming objectives. Not so with the Vindicare.... between his ridiculous range and Stealth USR (for 3+ cover saves behind Defense Lines, 2+ cover in Ruins with Bolstered Defenses), you can easily keep him in cover in your DZ and shoot all game long, all the while holding a remote objective for you while the rest of your army maneuvers around the board. If you are really concerned about the Vindicare surviving, pop him in a bunker/fortification and shoot out the firing ports... if the fortification is destroyed or the enemy gets too close, have him jump out of an Access Point to assault an enemy unit and/or claim an objective (remember, he can still shoot his Exitus Pistol at 12" on the move and he is not completely horrible at CC, with 6 x S4 attacks on the charge, all at WS8 and I7 and backed by 3W and a 4++.... will die against any dedicated assault units, but can be decent in a pinch against a Combat Squad of Tac Marines or a min unit of Dire Avengers trying to contest your objective).

[Bronze Templar]

I am going to be using the Vindicare assassin rules for my Counts-As Telion model because I really do not want an army with Ultramarines tactics. On top of this as I run a Black Templars Tactics Main Detachment and the above mentioned assassin as an ally I will probably look into a Culexus for more defence against psychic's.

 

Overall the Vindicare assassin has more synergy with my heavy long-range SM army (only took Black Templar Tactics for the Crusader Squad and Adamintium Will rule).

[Toldavf]

Have him crew an aquilla strong point with a mac cannon.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

while the Vindicare is not able to kill a Riptide in a single shot, he can take out Ethereals, Cadre Fireblades, Shadowsun (no cover saves for you Ms. Blue-Frog-Faced-Ninja-with-a-Jumpack-Field Marshal-for-the-Greater-Good!!!), Crises Bodyguards with PENChip or MSS or C2 Node, etc.... since all of these elements contribute to the synergy of the Tau army, being able to selectively remove these elements is a tremendous benefit.

 

He now has to face Look Out, Sir!.  A couple of good Lo,S rolls and your Vindicare has done nothing of impact all game.

 

I think the Culuxes and then Callidus are the better choices.

[Reichfaust]

 

while the Vindicare is not able to kill a Riptide in a single shot, he can take out Ethereals, Cadre Fireblades, Shadowsun (no cover saves for you Ms. Blue-Frog-Faced-Ninja-with-a-Jumpack-Field Marshal-for-the-Greater-Good!!!), Crises Bodyguards with PENChip or MSS or C2 Node, etc.... since all of these elements contribute to the synergy of the Tau army, being able to selectively remove these elements is a tremendous benefit.

 

He now has to face Look Out, Sir!.  A couple of good Lo,S rolls and your Vindicare has done nothing of impact all game.

 

I think the Culuxes and then Callidus are the better choices.

 

 

While I admit there's some merit in this line of thinking, I could say "don't bother shooting Plasma at Terminators, a few good Invuln saves and your Plasma has done nothing all game". Personally I think the best targets for a Vindicare are things that can't be LOS'd, anyway--special weapons in squads, banner carriers etc, as mentioned previously in the thread.

 

Regardless I am certainly looking forward to the ability to field assassins alongside my Marines again without having to pay a Grey Knight tax! Just like the old days :)

[Captain Idaho]

Another tactic is to snipe squad leaders out of units and then force an independent character into a challenge or to skulk at the back. LO, S! Is only a 6 for non-independent characters.

 

I think the benefits of a Vinidcare are more irritating thorns in the sides of opponents than the game changing strike against the opponent like the Culexus or Callidus.

[knife&fork]

If people doesn't stop taking invisibility death stars I'll put the culexus in a SR. 

 

If this means the end of the psychic death stars I'm partial towards the vindicare. Depending of course on how they FAQ his precision shots since neither RAI or RAW is clear at the moment. Removing a melta from a squad or putting a wound on those pesky rerollable invul/cover saves could be neat. 

[Captain Idaho]

Could you clarify? His shots are all precision shots RAW.

 

I'd like the Vindicare but the Culexus is just damn useful because he's hard to kill with shooting. Even Tau without psykers will be in trouble because he can attack them in assault and cause problems for a gun line.

 

And anything that trolls the Queens of trolls (Eldar) is a worthy addition in my book.

[knife&fork]

Could you clarify? His shots are all precision shots RAW.

 

 

yes, but precision shots are only allocated by the controlling player on a six to hit...... similar problem we had with the AM order cards.

Compare it to the wording they used for eldar pathfinders and Illic, no doubt there.  

The vindicares wording on the other hand is all messed up so either the controlling player can allocate all wounds as he please or it's just something they added so the vindicare could make precision shots with everything he might shoot, like emplaced weapons or tossed grenades. Can't really say that one way is more RAW than the other. RAI who knows?

 

GW writes in strange special rules (like muderfang and his FC that can only be used when he has lost both arms) from time to time and isn't consistent about how they should be applied. 

[Captain Idaho]

Reading the Precision Shot rules it tells us that rolls of a "6" are considered a "Precision shot". Since the Vindicare states it has precision shots on all successful hits under the Deadshot rule, this would mean that it is a Precision Shot.

[knife&fork]

Here's the issue:

 

Assassins dataslate:

"All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare, excluding snap shots, have the Precision Shots special rule"

 

7th ed rulebook:

Precision shots:

"If a model with this special rule rolls a 6 to hit with a shooting weapon, that shot is a precision shot.... 

 

The annoying part is that 'Precision shot' is both the name and effect of the USR. The vindicares entry doesn't state that all hits are counted as a precision shot, it refers to the complete 'precision shots' USR. Follow the USR and only to hit rolls of 6 allows you to allocate the wound. 

 

RAI is probably as you say, but RAW it's a mess. Given GWs previous track record I'll hold my breath until I see a FAQ.