Fuss with Russ making me Cuss :)

[captain sox]

Hey folks,

 

 I have a question or 2 about the Leman Russ. What is the preferred load-out to them and why? We can break in down in to the 2 Model Kits - LRBT and Punisher. My tanks will be magnetized, so I ask this more so on as a gaming question vs a modelling question. Are certain variants better than others? Are there some variants that aren't used much at all? What do you use your Russes for primarily and how many do you field at a time? Do you bother with sponsons? What about Lascannons? Do you move them around or are they basically static? 

 

 

I currently have 5 LRBT and will be getting at least 3 Punisher / Executioner models.

 

Thanks for any and all info. 

[scatmandoo]

I use a Exterminator with full bolter load out plus heavy stubber.

 

Also, a executioner with plasma sponsons and heavy stubber with hb in the front too.

 

Also a home made vanquisher with a lascannon, debating whether to use melta sponsons too though.

 

Debating a demolisher but worried about its cost and lack of range.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

My standard load puts are:

 

Vanquisher w/hull las cannon - anti tank specialist

Vanilla Russ w/hull hvy flamer - budget multipurpose

Demolisher w/hull hvy flamer - multipurpose with more bite

Demolisher w/mm sponsons - the kitchen sink (don't use this too often though but can out the Vanquisher turret on this hull for max AT

 

I don't do magnets so those are my load outs. I gave 2x hulls w/ hvy flamer, one w/ las cannon, one with mm sponsons

[librisrouge]

Demolisher naked

 

Exterminator with Heavy Bolters

 

Executioner with either Heavy a Bolters or Plasma Cannons

 

Vanquisher with Lascannon

 

All of the except the Demolisher are focused on their role and seek to achieve it almost to exclusion. Makes the points efficient.

[WarriorFish]

I like to keep them cheaper ideally like libisrouge, ordnance Russes generally with no more than a hull heavy flamer. Eradicator can be done cheap too, but slapping some heavy bolters on can make it brutal. Punisher and Exterminator like heavy bolters but the Eradicator I'm still undecided on how I'd like to run. Vanquisher must have a hull lascannon on at the least.

[cypherthefallenangel]

For my command tanks i take.

Vanquisher with lascannon, camo, multimeltas and probably Pask.

Or.

Punisher with 3x heavy bolters, heavy stubber and probably Pask.

Or.

Exterminator with lascannon, camo, heavy bolters, heavy stubber, and probably Pask.

For my standard tanks.

LRBT and Demolisher only hull flamer and maybe if i spam LRBTs then camo nets.

Executioner with lascannon and plasma cannons.(but i won't take one this edition.)

Exterminator, Punisher, and Eradicator get 3x heavy bolters and maybe a heavy stubber and camo.

Vanquisher gets lascannon and camo.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If it's Pask, my favoured loadout is a Punisher with a Lascannon and Sponson Multi-Meltas. Excellent anti-Tank and anti-MC at closer quarters, while also being able to turn to horde or Marine killing at a pinch, a real generalist.

 

Currently my vanilla Tank Commander runs in a Vanquisher with a Lascannon. Cheap, snipey anti-Tank goodness. I buddy both of these guys up with an Executioner with Sponson Plasma Cannons and a Lascannon. Also throw Camo Netting on each to boost their camping abilities while my other Russes push forward.

 

I always run either a Battle Russ with just a hull H/Bolter if I'm facing Marines, or an Eradicator with Heavy Bolters all-round and a Storm Bolter up top. May try the Stubber for the range affinity, but mainly this guy deals with customers that get too close, especially of the Horde variety.

 

My final slot is a Demolisher or two. Completely stripped bare, but have been debating Sponson Heavy Flamers for when the enemy closes, so they can switch to massacring Hordes if needed. H/Flamer Sponson are cheap, and will soak up Weapon Destroyed results that can turn your Demolisher into an expensive Heavy Bolter platform...

[march10k]

I currently use three variants, and eagerly look forward to fielding a fourth.  Right now, though, it's the stock LRBT with hull lascannon (snap shots, I know, but it prevents the enemy from ignoring the tank if the battle cannon is destroyed), the demolisher (never leave home without a pair of them!) with no upgrades (I'm about to test them out with dozer blades, haven't really had a problem with terrain yet, but it seems that's the ONLY tank across three armies that doesn't regularly roll ones!), and Pasquisher with lascannon...two antitank shots at BS4 with preferred enemy and long range is AMAZING.  He owns enemy armor, and if there isn't any, two wounds per turn off of a MC isn't bad...

 

What I don't use yet is an eradicator.  It's cheap, it ignores cover, what's not to love?  I'm getting one! The plasmacutioner is a good idea...but only as a wingman for Pask, you really need preferred enemy when you're trying to avoid ones on five dice!  Not really a fan of the exterminator...it gives me stuff I can get in an infantry squad!

 

But for heavy support, demolishers all the way!

 

/edit/

 

Left out the punisher...a really good way to field pask...and with three heavy bolters, 29 S5 shots is great...till you realize that a squad of fire warriors can do the same thing!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Left out the punisher...a really good way to field pask...and with three heavy bolters, 29 S5 shots is great...till you realize that a squad of fire warriors can do the same thing!

 

Not exactly, given that the Punisher also has Rending with re-rolls to Pen in Pask's hands. I've killed Land Raiders in a round of shooting with it. IMO the Eradicator with Heavy Bolters all round is better at anti-Infantry duties, (and cheaper too!)

[Jacinda]

I am looking at starting an allied detachment from AM to play with my Sisters.  I want to take some tanks and with Leman Russ HQ it seems perfect.

 

Anyway, I plugged a bunch of numbers in a spread sheet for the different loadouts to calculate their abilities to kill guard equivalent, MEQ, MC (T 7 with 3++), AV 11, AV 13 and AV12 flyers.  All of this was then scaled based on weapon range.  

 

 

For Pask the Punisher is far and away the best option.  This should be no surprise but even scaled back hard due to range AND assuming he will not have a target on turn 1 (which he will but it could happen) the Punisher is still the best choice.

 

For the squadron mate, I came up with the Autocannon version as best choice, closely followed by the plasma version. I get the names crossed quite often because they are so similar  but I hope you know which I mean.

 

I did similar calculations for sponson weapons based on point cost but it really falls back to what you want to do with the unit.  I have a hard time justifying the cost of heavy bolters for how I plan on using the Russes.  I will probably go with melta for Pask (or no sponson weapons at all because honestlky, he does not need any more fire power) and plasma for the mate.  

[march10k]

Left out the punisher...a really good way to field pask...and with three heavy bolters, 29 S5 shots is great...till you realize that a squad of fire warriors can do the same thing!

Not exactly, given that the Punisher also has Rending with re-rolls to Pen in Pask's hands. I've killed Land Raiders in a round of shooting with it. IMO the Eradicator with Heavy Bolters all round is better at anti-Infantry duties, (and cheaper too!)

I can see where you would get the idea that I was comparing punisher pask to fire warriors...not my intent. Basic punisher versus fire warriors was the intended comparison. Pask in a punisher is...punishing!

I am looking at starting an allied detachment from AM to play with my Sisters. I want to take some tanks and with Leman Russ HQ it seems perfect.

Anyway, I plugged a bunch of numbers in a spread sheet for the different loadouts to calculate their abilities to kill guard equivalent, MEQ, MC (T 7 with 3++), AV 11, AV 13 and AV12 flyers. All of this was then scaled based on weapon range.

For Pask the Punisher is far and away the best option. This should be no surprise but even scaled back hard due to range AND assuming he will not have a target on turn 1 (which he will but it could happen) the Punisher is still the best choice.

For the squadron mate, I came up with the Autocannon version as best choice, closely followed by the plasma version. I get the names crossed quite often because they are so similar but I hope you know which I mean.

I did similar calculations for sponson weapons based on point cost but it really falls back to what you want to do with the unit. I have a hard time justifying the cost of heavy bolters for how I plan on using the Russes. I will probably go with melta for Pask (or no sponson weapons at all because honestlky, he does not need any more fire power) and plasma for the mate.

~sigh~ Mathhammer...it leaves out so much! Punisher Pask is widely accepted as the no-brainer choice. Statistically, he is. The thing is, the statistics only account for him hosing down an enemy that isn't fighting back. Pasquisher is obviously not great against infantry (would you really waste Punisher Pask on a mob of orks?), and statistically less likely to kill a land raider. I get that. What you people don't seem to get is that Pask doesn't respond well to melta or melee. The "issue" with his 24" range isn't the chance that he won't have a decent target on turn one (by the way, don't dismiss that so lightly, my demolishers rarely get to shoot their ideal target before turn two), it's the fact that you have to drive him into the heart of the enemy formation to do anything with him. Driving your warlord straight at the enemy with his three HP and no invulnerable save is, frankly, stupid. My demolishers kick serious tail, but rarely survive the game. So, too, with Punisher Pask. The difference is they're not carrying a bonus VP around with them that the enemy would just love to harvest. So, yeah, Pasquisher is a little less killy, and he's really only useful against tanks and MCs (well, and TEQ). But he's really, really good against those two threat profiles, and I've only lost him once in 19 7th edition games. That's a lot of slay the warlord VP not surrendered, which does not reflect in your mathhammering out how many HP he glances off of a land raider if he takes a punisher instead.

/edit/

As for the exterminator being the best companion to punisher pask, I would recommend checking out the eradicator. The one thing that punisher pask doesn't do is bust cover...a S6AP4 pieplate is "meh" in the eyes of many, but even those who think that should consider that it'll be rolling around with Pask...what AP4 doesn't kill, Pask's rending will! Besides, who wants to waste a perfectly good tank on infantry weapons? Autocannons belong in heavy weapons teams...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Pask doesn't confer Rending to the Eradicator, only to the Exterminator and Punisher. He makes the Eradicator Twin-Linked, effectively.

 

Reliable, but coming in at least 190pts it's a lot to pay for a very reliable 4+Sv killer.

[WarriorFish]

I am looking at starting an allied detachment from AM to play with my Sisters. I want to take some tanks and with Leman Russ HQ it seems perfect.

A return to the old Witch Hunters codex perhaps? Guard and Sisters go very well together, even more so now with the new tank commander letting you cherry pick the most suitable Guard units :tu:

Pask is good yes, but as march says it's not always so straight forward. The question should always be "what is best for my list" after all, but this is a good argument for magnetising more than anything ;)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

As an example of what march10k speaks of, in a recent tournament, one of my DKoK infantry platoons destroyed Pask with their krak grenades in two rounds of combat. And they got the charge second turn after Pask had fired only once failing to kill my lone inquisitor in power armour.

[WarriorFish]

Kraks are usually the true enemy for armour, they should always be in your mind when considering your tactical options. Infantry support tanks who support the infantry in return :)

[Jacinda]

Math is not everything.  I agree.  But it is the difference between paying for your weekend in Vegas or having to make an early withdraw from your 401k when you get back home.  It gives you the odds yet you still have to employ those odds to your advantage. However not knowing the odds means you are at the mercy of the house.  Knowledge is the true weapon.  Ignorance is a foible to be exploited.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I can see both viewpoints. Mathhammer is useful as a guideline, and really shouldn't be much more than that. Most of the time you can prove it on the table anyway, I've done say with the Pask-nisher versus the Pask-quisher a lot. IMO the Punisher is better in raw damage, but March brings up a good point about Pask in a Vanquisher being able to hang back in (relative) safety. 

[captain sox]

Hey fellas, I don't want this to turn into a flame ware / ruffle feathers. Can we just discuss what YOU use rather than debating why? I know I asked what the preferred load outs are, and whether you move them or keep them stationary. 

 

Thanks

 

Cat of reason

[cypherthefallenangel]

I think the exterminator gets a raw deal here. This thing will reliably pop transport from a distance. Nothing else in the codex has the range, durability, and volume of fire this thing has. 5(4 areTL) high strength shots at 48" from an AV14 tank, with a 3+ cover save have worked wonders for me. When used as a long range support tank its pretty good at it's job. I like them as escorts for Pask in his vanquisher since you'll be hanging back, popping transports and supporting your other long range units. It may not be for be good for killing marines but its great at killing rhinos so make them walk.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Hey fellas, I don't want this to turn into a flame ware / ruffle feathers. Can we just discuss what YOU use rather than debating why? I know I asked what the preferred load outs are, and whether you move them or keep them stationary. 

 

Thanks

 

Cat of reason

 

Cpt. Sox,

 

Sorry I realised I only answered you with my preferred load-outs.

 

As for moving them/stationary, all of my tanks are generally on the move since I prefer a very aggressive posture and use my tanks as mobile cover for my infantry as well as fire platforms. The Vanquisher might hang back but it can definitely move too since it benefits fully from the Heavy Vehicle rule.

 

EDIT/P.S. -- check out my Road to Astronomi-con thread and let me know what you think of your namesake piloting the Valkyrie!

[WarriorFish]

I think Russes should always be moving thanks to the Heavy rule, no point making yourself even more vulnerable to assault without good reason.

I should add that I also run a couple of classic Russes with lascannon and heavy bolters but that's out of a stubborn refusal to leave the models behind. They hit the table fairly often and are normally the only Russes with sponsons. They usually don't do badly though that could just be the dice gods rewarding my loyalty - and the veteran crew of course!

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think the exterminator gets a raw deal here. This thing will reliably pop transport from a distance. Nothing else in the codex has the range, durability, and volume of fire this thing has. 5(4 areTL) high strength shots at 48" from an AV14 tank, with a 3+ cover save have worked wonders for me. When used as a long range support tank its pretty good at it's job. I like them as escorts for Pask in his vanquisher since you'll be hanging back, popping transports and supporting your other long range units. It may not be for be good for killing marines but its great at killing rhinos so make them walk.

 

Mmmmmmm...

 

My question is always, "Do I want to spend 140-170pts on killing 35pt Transports?" The answer is often no, and it's outclassed a little by Autocannon Weapons Teams in everything except durability, and Autocannon teams only cost 75pts for 3...

[cypherthefallenangel]

 

I think the exterminator gets a raw deal here. This thing will reliably pop transport from a distance. Nothing else in the codex has the range, durability, and volume of fire this thing has. 5(4 areTL) high strength shots at 48" from an AV14 tank, with a 3+ cover save have worked wonders for me. When used as a long range support tank its pretty good at it's job. I like them as escorts for Pask in his vanquisher since you'll be hanging back, popping transports and supporting your other long range units. It may not be for be good for killing marines but its great at killing rhinos so make them walk.

 

 

Mmmmmmm...

 

My question is always, "Do I want to spend 140-170pts on killing 35pt Transports?" The answer is often no, and it's outclassed a little by Autocannon Weapons Teams in everything except durability, and Autocannon teams only cost 75pts for 3...

Well its 75pts for 3x BS3, T3, autocannons that can't take camo cloaks and if you want to twin link them you'll need a primaris psyker so thats another 25pts minimum. Then if you want to give them orders, add on 30-60pts. Now your up to the same price as the exterminator for models that get insta-killed with S6+ weapons and a crappier cover save. Thats not really a better solution for the points.

Now i almost always take 3 basilisks in my list so to me getting my opponent out of his transports is key for me to slap those S9 AP3 pieplates on his troops. Well that and generally i take vets over platoons.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You're adding the price of Orders when an Exterminator can't receive those either. They don't need Camo Cloaks when I can take twice as many of them. You don't need to Twin-Link them when they get an extra 50% of shots and are cheap enough to double that again. 

 

Also they're slotless if you take a Platoon, and so you can save Heavy Support slots for Artillery or other Russes.

[WarriorFish]

There's more than one way to kill a xeno, especially in our Emperor-blessed codex. Each unit serves a purpose so it's up to you and your list to decide which is best for what you need so we'll be here all day going in circles if you want to try and draw direct comparisons! :P