Yet Another Command Squad Topic

[MisterDutch]

This topic has probably been discussed to death so forgive me that I start yet another one. A search on this topic has led me to believe that there is basically no "best" way to run a command squad - they are so incredibly versatile that it all comes down to what you want them to do and what you think is fun. Still, just because I like to talk about the game whenever I'm not playing it, i'd like to ask your opinion on how my army could incorporate a fun and effective command squad.

 

My army usually runs with:

 

HQ: Captain OR Libby (i'm wanting to buy a Chaplain too)

Elites: Flamer-ironclad in Drop Pod; 5 terminators (the shooty version)

Troops: 2x10 Tacticals in a Rhino or Razorback; Scouts with or without LSS

Fast Attack: Stormtalon; 1x5-10 Assault Squad with flamers; Land Speeder (whatever type)

Heavy Support: 1x3 Devastator Centurions (whatever weapons); Devastator Squad with missiles, Devastator Squad with something else; 1-2 Whirlwinds

 

And my planned expansion, as soon as I have painted my models, is to get either a squad of Hammernators in a Land Raider, and/or an allied detachment of Black Templars, which would be a assaulty crusader squad in a Land Raider. I'm also kind of wanting to try a Terminator Libby or Captan Lysander. I play Imperial Fists.

 

Regarding the command squad I just love the look of a company banner, so I'm looking into ways to take one and let it be useful. So far I have tried the method of drop podding them with 4 plasmaguns but they dont survive for long. It just seems like such a waste to throw the coolest guys of my company away like that. Wouldnt they be more useful in the midfield somehow, moving up with the tacticals and land raiders?

 

I usually play against Orks, Dark Angels, Eldar, Necrons, Space Wolves.

[Imren]

they get killed killed because you play them wrong, What you do is to add an apothecary with them and a librarian in termie armour with storm shield. You drop them and have them disembark in such a way that the libby is closest to the enemy, you whoot with your 4x plasmaguns (or 4x meltaguns) and then when the enemy ragefires this squad you take the incoming saves on the libby (2+/3++) since he is closest to the enemy, if the shooting unit positioned in such a way that the libby is not the closest model, then take the apothecary can help reducing the casualties. But you should play and position the unit in such a way the libby takes the incoming shots. This way, your command squad gets to shoot at least two turns and usually brings back their points cost in killed enemy units. Even if you loose the libby and you disregards his libby perks its still a bargain when it comes to points killed before libby dies depending on you really position the squad properly. This squad landiing in a flank or behind lines can cleanse the line of enemy high AV vehicles with meltaguns or elite inf with plasmaguns

[knife&fork]

 you shoot with your 4x plasmaguns (or 4x meltaguns)  

 

or 4*meltagun + 4*flamers

 

Filling up with dual special weapons is the bomb, particularly if you use salamanders  CT.

[minigun762]

There is something about the Command Squad that always draws my attention.

 

Beyond the various bike builds (which I will begrudgingly admit might be the best option) I like the simple special weapon drop pod death squad, especially with melta.

 

People love the Sternguard melta squad but a Command Squad can do the same thing for fewer points and get melta guns compared to combi melta.

[Axagoras]

yea a melta command squad is 20 cheaper then a sternguard squad... But dont have special issue ammo.

[knife&fork]

But you can give them dual specials for that melta+flamer goodness. It's the one thing that's unique to the command squad so why not use it? 

 

I'll be hard pressed to think of a game where you can't find targets for this. 

 

Knight? Give him 5 melta shots.

Open topped transport? Shoot 2-3 flamers first to roast the embarked unit and finish off the transport with the meltas.

Closed transport? 5 meltas to break it, or have someone else pop it and roast the contents. 

Monsters and tough infantry all go down nicely to melta. MEQ and worse can be decimated by massed flamers.

Character with inexpensive bubble wrap? Use 3 flamers to clear out the chaff and then hit the character with 2 melta shots when he has run out of bodies to LoS to.

[minigun762]

yea a melta command squad is 20 cheaper then a sternguard squad... But dont have special issue ammo.

But I have melta guns. While they can't ignore cover,,they have better AP and will wound most anything on a 2+ anyway.

 

I'm not knocking Sternguard, I just believe Command Squads make better melta death squads.

[Axagoras]

well whats a even more cost effective melta torpedo is a da company vet squad since they can take 5 combi meltas and a pod for 10 cheaper and are a elite... I found this out after being told by a TO that a da libby on a bike cannot take a ravenwing and a normal command squad (even though frontline said its legit.. but thats for another thread)

sure its just  combis not full guns but you deal the same damage on arrival and survive the damage the same :D

[minigun762]

well whats a even more cost effective melta torpedo is a da company vet squad since they can take 5 combi meltas and a pod for 10 cheaper and are a elite... I found this out after being told by a TO that a da libby on a bike cannot take a ravenwing and a normal command squad (even though frontline said its legit.. but thats for another thread)

 

sure its just combis not full guns but you deal the same damage on arrival and survive the damage the same :D

Good call, I tend to forget about the first legion.

[malorn24]

has anyone ever tried this flamer/melta gun in a game yet or is this theroy hammer?

[minigun762]

has anyone ever tried this flamer/melta gun in a game yet or is this theroy hammer?

I thought member Greycrow tried it but I can't find the post.

 

My memory is telling me it was too expensive but I'm not 100% on that

[Ming]

I went with 3 plasma guns, apothecary, and power axe/storm shield, deathwind pod. Accompanied Tigurius.   Survived the game!  You can't upgrade a champion to a stormshield, but some other guy can do it.  I kept tanking the nasty wounds to the stormshield guy.  Even got stuck in with a Thunderwolf lord, survived it with some great rolling. 

[malorn24]

I went with 3 plasma guns, apothecary, and power axe/storm shield, deathwind pod. Accompanied Tigurius.   Survived the game!  You can't upgrade a champion to a stormshield, but some other guy can do it.  I kept tanking the nasty wounds to the stormshield guy.  Even got stuck in with a Thunderwolf lord, survived it with some great rolling. 

 

 

Do you think they earned thier points bac k?

[Ming]

Yes. They accounted for 3 wolf lords and the battle leader/warlord also on a wolf. Probably half of the heavy hitters, plus tied them up to help win the game.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I run a command squad on bikes.  It is really effective but i wish i could have them with jump packs.  Vanguard vets are a nice option but i wait for the day i can have a Apothecary with a jump pack.

[GreyCrow]

 

has anyone ever tried this flamer/melta gun in a game yet or is this theroy hammer?

I thought member Greycrow tried it but I can't find the post.

 

My memory is telling me it was too expensive but I'm not 100% on that

 

 

I did try it !

 

There's a definitive cool factor when doing that. The problem is that you'll ever use one or the other, because a 5 man squad will definitely NOT survive the return fire, unless they are part of a full drop pod army.

 

I'm not really a fan of suicide Command squads to be perfectly fair. Simply put, gear is the main reason for effectiveness of a suicide squad and for Marines you pay a premium for premium stats plus the extra points for the special weapon.

 

For the loadout of a Command squad, I really believe they shine when they are placed in support of nearby Tactical squads, in escort of the HQ. I'm also a firm beleiver of different special and melee weapons all around to be able to provide a sufficient boost in different circumstances.

[malorn24]

I always viewed a Command Squad like a QRF which is why I put them in a razorback but I am thinking of changing that to a rhino for the firing ports rather than just an extra LC shot. I usually run them as a ranged group becuase of thier transport not being a assault vehicle. But there in lies the issue of putting with the Captain. I guess I could just run them with a Libby instead since I can make them sorta of shooty. Captains are more beat stick then shoot sticks.

[Gothical]

I apologise for resurrecting a slightly older topic, but a comment really stood out to me.

 

 

For the loadout of a Command squad, I really believe they shine when they are placed in support of nearby Tactical squads, in escort of the HQ. I'm also a firm beleiver of different special and melee weapons all around to be able to provide a sufficient boost in different circumstances.

 

 

That is how I am planning on using my Command Squad for my Salamanders - supporting a pair of Tactical Squads, ideally covering the things they can't deal with. This also allows the Company Standard to be somewhat relevant - 25 Marines covered by its effects can be really difficult to dislodge, preventing a lucky roll from stalling the force's momentum.

 

However, I am unsure how to efficiently equip the unit for such a role, and I was wondering if you had any advice? The Company Standard and Apothecary are definite includes, but there are so many options that I just get lost and end up wanting to throw everything and the kitchen sink on the squad!

 

For reference, the Captain that I am tempted to use has a Combi-Melta, Thunderhammer and Artificer Armour; and the two Tactical Squads the Command Squad would be supporting have a Power Sword, Flamer and Multi-Melta each (in Rhinos).

[markham82]

I say give them gravguns.

[LamerVonDoomieMcdoomerson]

As a salies player, I love the Flamer/melta load out for a command squad.  I usually only equip two marines with this load out, preferring the upgrade to a champ over a third marine with the f/mm.  In addition, I have a TH/SS banner bearer and apocath.  This squad plus Vulcan and a TLHF razorback have won me games by themselves.   The ability for the whole squad to engage both large number or high toughness/mid armor is phenomenal.   Using Vulcan and the SS banner bearer to tank high str/ap wounds as the termi-libby example above is crucial with the added benefit of the mobility and fire support from the RB.  This squad is my go to choice for where to put Vulcan in my lists. The combination of the banner and Vulcans warlord trait have turned a lack luster combat into a moral check for my opponent.  That abillity alone has saved my bacon.

 

As far as advice for any command squad:

1. dont forget the standard bearer doesn't loose his weapons with the flag upgrade. You can equip him with the same options as the other vets. I recommend a SS and a Powerfist or Thunderhammer, it keeps him interesting while helping preserve the banner.

2.  

3. The squad only has 5 to 8 wounds (5 base with whatever attached IC you have), so you have to expect some casualties by the end of most games my CS is usually down to Vulcan, the banner bearer and the apocath.  with such a small number of bodies learn to have the squad function effectively with a few bodies. Keeping the upgrades simple especially on the models you don't upgrade to a specialist (champ, stbearer and apothac)

4.  

5. Put at least one storm shield in the squad for help taking those pesky ID high str/ap attacks. I’d much rather lose the banner than Vulcan.

6.  

7. Put the CS inside something! Rhino, Razorback, Landraider Stormraven maybe even a drop pod. Its more about the shooting protection rather than the mobility. The thing about drop pods is they're all mobility and no protection, you need to weather at least 1 shooting phase, likely 2 before you can get your CS into close combat where they excel.  

8.  

9. Assault over rapid fire.  Its much better to use your weapon upgrades for things you can assault with after firing. Getting stuck in prevents the squad from falling to massed shooting.  Consider this: when not in combat every ranged squad could start forcing saves, as opposed to melee where only the unit(s) they’re fighting can force saves.  Its a way to narrow the wounds your opponent can bring to bear on the CS

10.  

11. They have a huge bullseyes printed on their helmets. Most opponents will want to shoot a CS off the board than deal with it in CC.  

As for advice to the IF player who posted the question:

Try storm bolters, they seem like a good synergy with your CT

Id equip the squad as such:

1 company champion

1 apothecary

1 vet with banner, storm shield and storm bolter

2 vets with storm bolters and special weapon of your choice.

[malorn24]

I am thinking of doing the whole Grav/ bike squad and have them TEQ and MC hunting. My question would be 5 grav guns with no apoth? 4 with apoth? or 3 with 1 SS and apoth? ARGH the combinatios are endless!!!!! Taste the Rainbow!

[SyNidus]

As a salies player, I love the Flamer/melta load out for a command squad.  I usually only equip two marines with this load out, preferring the upgrade to a champ over a third marine with the f/mm.  In addition, I have a TH/SS banner bearer and apocath.  This squad plus Vulcan and a TLHF razorback have won me games by themselves.   The ability for the whole squad to engage both large number or high toughness/mid armor is phenomenal.   Using Vulcan and the SS banner bearer to tank high str/ap wounds as the termi-libby example above is crucial with the added benefit of the mobility and fire support from the RB.  This squad is my go to choice for where to put Vulcan in my lists. The combination of the banner and Vulcans warlord trait have turned a lack luster combat into a moral check for my opponent.  That abillity alone has saved my bacon.

 

As far as advice for any command squad:

1. dont forget the standard bearer doesn't loose his weapons with the flag upgrade. You can equip him with the same options as the other vets. I recommend a SS and a Powerfist or Thunderhammer, it keeps him interesting while helping preserve the banner.

2.  

3. The squad only has 5 to 8 wounds (5 base with whatever attached IC you have), so you have to expect some casualties by the end of most games my CS is usually down to Vulcan, the banner bearer and the apocath.  with such a small number of bodies learn to have the squad function effectively with a few bodies. Keeping the upgrades simple especially on the models you don't upgrade to a specialist (champ, stbearer and apothac)

4.  

5. Put at least one storm shield in the squad for help taking those pesky ID high str/ap attacks. I’d much rather lose the banner than Vulcan.

6.  

7. Put the CS inside something! Rhino, Razorback, Landraider Stormraven maybe even a drop pod. Its more about the shooting protection rather than the mobility. The thing about drop pods is they're all mobility and no protection, you need to weather at least 1 shooting phase, likely 2 before you can get your CS into close combat where they excel.  

8.  

9. Assault over rapid fire.  Its much better to use your weapon upgrades for things you can assault with after firing. Getting stuck in prevents the squad from falling to massed shooting.  Consider this: when not in combat every ranged squad could start forcing saves, as opposed to melee where only the unit(s) they’re fighting can force saves.  Its a way to narrow the wounds your opponent can bring to bear on the CS

10.  

11. They have a huge bullseyes printed on their helmets. Most opponents will want to shoot a CS off the board than deal with it in CC.  

As for advice to the IF player who posted the question:

Try storm bolters, they seem like a good synergy with your CT

Id equip the squad as such:

1 company champion

1 apothecary

1 vet with banner, storm shield and storm bolter

2 vets with storm bolters and special weapon of your choice.

 

Now that's some brilliant thinking, I've honestly never considered using a command squad in that way. Putting them in a razorback to move up the field as opposed to using them as a first blood grabber. 

 

The current setup i use is a Command squad with 2 Gravguns and 3 Meltaguns in a drop pod. It's pretty decent imo, but generally i seemed to have awful luck!. One thing i'm considering is using the Reclusiam command squad. It wouldn't be shooty in the least, but i reckon it might be a nice cheap way to get an extra HQ slot (then I can have a librarian as well).

 

How about a command squad like this:

 

Command Squad - Apothecary, Champion, Banner (w TH/SS), 2 Meltaguns - Razorback w TLAC w Dozer Blade -  285

 

What do guys reckon? Seems abit expensive imo, but I think if i put an IC of some sort with them (Thinking of possibly grabbing a techmarine), they could achieve a similar effect to your setup.

[Gothical]

As a salies player, I love the Flamer/melta load out for a command squad.  I usually only equip two marines with this load out, preferring the upgrade to a champ over a third marine with the f/mm.  In addition, I have a TH/SS banner bearer and apocath.  This squad plus Vulcan and a TLHF razorback have won me games by themselves.   The ability for the whole squad to engage both large number or high toughness/mid armor is phenomenal.   Using Vulcan and the SS banner bearer to tank high str/ap wounds as the termi-libby example above is crucial with the added benefit of the mobility and fire support from the RB.  This squad is my go to choice for where to put Vulcan in my lists. The combination of the banner and Vulcans warlord trait have turned a lack luster combat into a moral check for my opponent.  That abillity alone has saved my bacon.

 

As far as advice for any command squad:

1. dont forget the standard bearer doesn't loose his weapons with the flag upgrade. You can equip him with the same options as the other vets. I recommend a SS and a Powerfist or Thunderhammer, it keeps him interesting while helping preserve the banner.

2.  

3. The squad only has 5 to 8 wounds (5 base with whatever attached IC you have), so you have to expect some casualties by the end of most games my CS is usually down to Vulcan, the banner bearer and the apocath.  with such a small number of bodies learn to have the squad function effectively with a few bodies. Keeping the upgrades simple especially on the models you don't upgrade to a specialist (champ, stbearer and apothac)

4.  

5. Put at least one storm shield in the squad for help taking those pesky ID high str/ap attacks. I’d much rather lose the banner than Vulcan.

6.  

7. Put the CS inside something! Rhino, Razorback, Landraider Stormraven maybe even a drop pod. Its more about the shooting protection rather than the mobility. The thing about drop pods is they're all mobility and no protection, you need to weather at least 1 shooting phase, likely 2 before you can get your CS into close combat where they excel.  

8.  

9. Assault over rapid fire.  Its much better to use your weapon upgrades for things you can assault with after firing. Getting stuck in prevents the squad from falling to massed shooting.  Consider this: when not in combat every ranged squad could start forcing saves, as opposed to melee where only the unit(s) they’re fighting can force saves.  Its a way to narrow the wounds your opponent can bring to bear on the CS

10.  

11. They have a huge bullseyes printed on their helmets. Most opponents will want to shoot a CS off the board than deal with it in CC.

 

Some very helpful advice there!

 

Do you find the Company Champion particularly helpful with the "Must Challenge" rule (I was wondering on the exact meaning in the Rule forum, and have been informed that if anyone can challenge it has to be the Champion)? Seems like a lot of the time I would rather have a Captain/Vulkan fighting the challenge, unless it is against a Sergeant-equivalent character, given their better weaponry and defensive stats.

 

Does a unit of Standard Bearer, Apothecary, Champion and 2 Veterans with Storm Shields and Meltaguns in a Razorback sound like a good unit? It seems to fit with the guidelines above - Assault weapons, added survivability to make up for low numbers etc. I was temped by a Hammer on the Standard Bearer, but I felt the squad was getting far too expensive as it was.

[LamerVonDoomieMcdoomerson]

I'm glad you liked my ideas.

 

As I answer the company champ question I must say his inclusion is primarily due to Vulcan.  Vulcan Is a good combat character with two exceptions: no AP 2 and no real way to deal with av 12 and up.  Where I want vulcan is, where he can make the most out of his attacks, removing models from the squad with his str 6 ap 3 attacks. Getting him stuck in a challenge is use-impaired moving toward useless, forcing Vulcan to use all of his attacks on one model is a waste.  Against most troops Vulcan is woulding on 2's and with his one re-roll (on the wound roll) he can inflict the most damage against squadies. The champ, has a MC power sword, so he has the same AP as vulcan, he has (against most foes) the same to hit, along with a re-roll to boot. Aside from his lower strength his combat capabilities mirror Vulcan (for most foes).  So my inclusion of a champ is specific to Vulcan being included with the squad.

 

As for general advice about the champ,  include him if you have your attached IC kitted out to be outside of a challenge, (chaplain, buff/stalf/libby).  If the HQ of your choice wants to be in the challenge, then I would leave him at home. for only ten more points you can get a vet with a SS and a PS to fulfil the same niche but without the pesky character type getting in the way.

Also, a little more indepth explanation of the assault attitude I mentioned earlier.  You want your command squad in assaults, but assaults they can win. This can vary widely based upon the character you choose to attach to the squad, A master with a thunder hammer will want to assault different units from a chaplain.  The squad itself is relative combat focused with each vet having 2 attacks base. With the champ and apocath adding 1 to their base value. While this is an assault focus, it is not assault dominance. They aren't vanguard vets, or hammernatiors and you can’t expect them to perform as such. My favorite use for them is as a center for a battline, hopefully taking on non-elite brunt of the enemies assault.  With the large number of bodies the squat can hike up. (the overwatch can be devastating). They’re tooled up to clear bodies over engaging elites.     

Also, when transporting them in anything aside from a Land Raider, use a Land Raider to intercept incoming fire.  One major shortcoming of this squad is their close, close range.  The template is about 8”long, ideally I want to be within 3” to 5” to when I hop out of my transport to bring the fire. It is not fun to have to footslog the whole squat across the map with such a close-ranged unit.  Part of this can also come from threat saturation, but that is spreading more into list building.  Remember this, all units in your army are cogs in the greater game to win.  You must build them to work together, and support each other.

[UltraTacSgt]

I don't mean to re-direct this thread, but from reading this, am I understanding that for a command squad meant to support the main battle line it is usually most effective to give a slight mix of weapons and wargear? The mixed wargear being in contrast to a specialized squad like you'd use for a suicide pod or something similar.

 

Say a Rhino/Razor, 2 or so Specials to fit your list needs, one vet kitted for combat w/ SS and/or PW, an apothecary, and maybe a standard or champ upgrade as fits your list needs?

 

Using a squad equipped as described above to move up along with your Tactical Marines etc and deal with emerging threats as they arise?

 

Is the main battle line Command Squad a more fluffy and casual choice or is it a viable choice for competitive play? Competitive being tough lists playing to win, but not WAAC spammy cheese-monger lists.