Frater Cornelius Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With allies being tossed around like candy, let us adress the elephant in the room: do allies improve our codex or can we handle our own business better without. Here I would like to discuss a certain one that I have been thinking about since forever, and those are White Scars. With the introduction of Maelstrom the game has shifted from objective camping to a mobile force. With that in mind, let us have a look. For a shooty SW army, they are very valuable. What SW lack in my eyes are fast 'objective secured' units to snatch objectives and something to consistently deal with 2+ monstrous creatures. Get Khan with 2*5 bikes with grav guns and possible a trike. Then get your 2 biker Rune Priests, GH in Rhinos and LF and Stormwolves and get going. I think they bring a lot to a shooty SW list. But is shooty the way to play it? Enter the melee builds, saturated with WG bikers, fenrisian Wolves and TWC. Do White Scars help here? Less so, in my eyes. TWC deal with anything really and WG bikes can score while having way more melee pressure. One could take them but it would force one to subtract either the Stormwolf or Rhino squads. I value both units highly for their utility, so I not sure. What your take on it. What allies would you take if any? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 If was was worried about objective secured allies the most bang for you buck seems to be guard. You can take an infantry platoon with 5 squads for 280 bare. They are not fast but they can camp the backfield while the wolves advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3788634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Maelstrom of War is... not a serious format. Treating it competitively is setting yourself up for frustration. Seriously, you can have a score of 6-1 turn one. It's a beer and pretzels game. Can certainly be fun and a nice change, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. Rhinos and Drop Pods are more than enough for your objective steeling purposes. The issue with White Scars is they tend to take over Space Wolf Lists. The stormwolf, Rune priests on bikes, and Thunderwolf Cavalry are all they really want from us. That being said, allies... Guard: Cheap blobs of 30 guys (with autocannons), artillery, Leman russes. Space Marines: Thunderfire Cannons, Stormtalons, Stormraven Rides for Bjorn and Murderfang, Scouts that aren't terrible, sternguard, scoring bikes. Blood Angels: not at the moment. Maybe when they get a new codex. Dark Angels: Powerfields, Black knights, fluff themes about teeth clenched alliances Inquisition: The book of cheese. You want just about everything out of this book, frankly Knights: Yes. Sisters: Awkward codex. they do have a few cool toys, though. Grey Knights: Psychic terminators, Stormraven Rides, Dreadknights Eldar: Jetbikes, Wave Serpents Necrons: Croissants of both flavors Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3788645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Personally I use allies to add fluffy options to my wolves. Blood Angels Death Company to represent Wulfen, Imperial Guard Veterans as Skaerls and so on and so forth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3788739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rose Princes Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With my lack of psykers going only mounted army, I wonder about adding some anti psyker ally of some kind.... i just have to figure out what. possibly new Grey Knights stuff, possibly some Inquisitor stuff, maybe the Assassin book. I'll have to do some reading. (if anyone has any immediate thoughts, i'm all ears) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3788846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 With my lack of psykers going only mounted army, I wonder about adding some anti psyker ally of some kind.... i just have to figure out what. possibly new Grey Knights stuff, possibly some Inquisitor stuff, maybe the Assassin book. I'll have to do some reading. (if anyone has any immediate thoughts, i'm all ears) If you want fast GK units assisting, consider the much cheaper Dreadknight and decent interceptors. They can do their 30" jump and do the turn 2 charge along with the cav. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3788868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 With my lack of psykers going only mounted army, I wonder about adding some anti psyker ally of some kind.... i just have to figure out what. possibly new Grey Knights stuff, possibly some Inquisitor stuff, maybe the Assassin book. I'll have to do some reading. (if anyone has any immediate thoughts, i'm all ears) Pretty sure the anti psyker assassin shuts down psykers hard now I think i heard something along the lines of a 12 inch denial area that can shut down blessings as well Don't have the book personally but that what I recall from the skim of my friends book yesterday. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 With my lack of psykers going only mounted army, I wonder about adding some anti psyker ally of some kind.... i just have to figure out what. possibly new Grey Knights stuff, possibly some Inquisitor stuff, maybe the Assassin book. I'll have to do some reading. (if anyone has any immediate thoughts, i'm all ears) Pretty sure the anti psyker assassin shuts down psykers hard now I think i heard something along the lines of a 12 inch denial area that can shut down blessings as well Don't have the book personally but that what I recall from the skim of my friends book yesterday. 12" radius can not produce Warp Charges and removed all blessings/maledictions. He is also immune to being targeted but can still be affected by indirect stuff like novas. He can also shoot in the psychic phase in addition to shooting phase and the numbers of shots depend on the amount of Warp Charges in his denial area. In short, he is a beast against the right armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rose Princes Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 12" radius can not produce Warp Charges and removed all blessings/maledictions. He is also immune to being targeted but can still be affected by indirect stuff like novas. He can also shoot in the psychic phase in addition to shooting phase and the numbers of shots depend on the amount of Warp Charges in his denial area. In short, he is a beast against the right armies. oooooooooooooooooh, pretty!!!! serious thought now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 With my lack of psykers going only mounted army, I wonder about adding some anti psyker ally of some kind.... i just have to figure out what. possibly new Grey Knights stuff, possibly some Inquisitor stuff, maybe the Assassin book. I'll have to do some reading. (if anyone has any immediate thoughts, i'm all ears) Pretty sure the anti psyker assassin shuts down psykers hard now I think i heard something along the lines of a 12 inch denial area that can shut down blessings as well Don't have the book personally but that what I recall from the skim of my friends book yesterday. 12" radius can not produce Warp Charges and removed all blessings/maledictions. He is also immune to being targeted but can still be affected by indirect stuff like novas. He can also shoot in the psychic phase in addition to shooting phase and the numbers of shots depend on the amount of Warp Charges in his denial area. In short, he is a beast against the right armies. Couple of additions/corrections. He can only shoot his animus in the psychic phase, it can't be used in the shootinf phase. But the 12' bubble also means that psykers within the distance only manifest WC on a six, instead of a 4+. Plus he's got an assassin profile, and ignores all armour saves in combat. For the same price as a tri-las Predator. The Culexus is ludicrously good, it's rather sickening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Look again, he has a second profile for shooting which is for the shooting phase, which he can use independently of the Animus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yes he can also throw a psyk-out grenade in the shooting phase as well as the animus in the psychic phase. But your previous post suggested the animus could be fired in both the psychic and shooting phases, which isn't the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 I am talking about the s8 ap2 small blast psi-shock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Um, the Culexus doesn't have one of those. The pysk-out is small blast and psi-shock, but it's range 8" S2 AP-, not S8 AP2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3789979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Um, the Culexus doesn't have one of those. The pysk-out is small blast and psi-shock, but it's range 8" S2 AP-, not S8 AP2. HAHA, damn you got me. I was seeing the 8" as S8. Moved a line in my head. I am taking everything back. Cheers for bringing this one to my obviously lacking attention :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3790052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not that the Culexus really needs a S8 AP2 grenade, it's twisted enough as it is . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3790102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 To get back on track: I do not think that pure lists can hold up all that well in high end play. I mean, I can't think of a SW list that would not benefit from Grav Centurions, especially since SW can put them in drop pods. Have Tigurius toss out blessings. I mean LF and GH can only do so much before you can not justify their cost anymore. What SW do amazingly well is melee but in the ranges department allies take the upper hand if you ask me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Eh, only Ultramarines and Salamanders outdo us in Drop Pod assaults, and Ultramarines have to carefully chhoose which turn to use Tactical doctorine on, while Salamanders need Vulkan to be the Warlord for full effect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 The point remains that Grav Centurions outdo any SW unit in shooting for their cost and Tigurius is hands down the better psyker between him and our selection. White Scars have better troops, but that might change once (if) they get their 7ed codex, given how most FOC altering shenanigans are gone. Today I played against a tourney list, White Scars + Grey Knights. The alpha strike is so ridiculous, I have no idea how a pure SW list can ever hold against it. In the end, we have 4 things that are better than other lists, and that is TWC, TW Lords, Grey Hunters and arguably anti-air with the Stormwolf (when compared the to Storm Raven). And even Grey Hunters pale in comparison to some other shooty squads in 40k. So in the end it comes down to our Thunderwolves. This is also the reason why I want my ranged component from either GK shunts or SM (either bikes, TFC or centurions). If anyone can get me a pure SW list that has high end value against the current SM and Eldar dominance, I will reconsider my position. As of right now I feel that you get Thunderwolves from SW and ranged components from SM allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Eh, Give the metagame time to adjust. I highly doubt the Grey Knights/White Scars list is going to stay flavor of the month for long. It really doesn't do anything to knight titans, and folds to the Raider Rush, since bikes depend so heavily on jinking (thus making meltaguns less reliable). Tournament lists aren't generally pure, though. The tournament mentality requires you to be heavily critical of what performs best. 7 out of the top 10 at the Bay Area Open (one of the biggest U.S. Tournaments) had multiple detachments. 2 of the 3 that didn't were Ultramarine drop pod lists (with 5 tactical squads, 2 other pods (One had 2 Sternguard pods, the other had 1 Sternguard, 1 Assault Squad with double flamers), and Marneus Calgar*), and the third was 'Cron air. *Because he has a 2+/4++, 4 wounds, and Eternal Warrior. The tournament metagame places a big value on Warlords not dieing- So much so that one of the Necron lists there made a Harbinger of Despair the warlord instead of a Barge Lord, simply because the Harbinger could teleport to the back line and hide instead of being on the front lines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Heh, well I wouldn't be asking about allies and trying to find more optimal solutions if I was looking for friendly games, would I ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Yeah, I was just pointing out that, "Needs allies to build top tier list," Is something that can be said about virtually all armies- The only time that isn't true is when a strategy requires complete dedication, like 'cron Air* or Drop Pod assault. *And if you're careful, you can actually fit a few armies into those. It just often ends up making certain things small taxes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Well I have build myself a small blueprint of my thunderlord with 2 wolves, 2 twc units, 2 TW iron priests with 2 wolves each, 2 minimal GH with plasma in rhinos and allied 3 grav centurions in a FA drop pod. This clocks in at around 1300-1350 I believe, leaving me 500 points to ally. I am split between UM for Tiggy (then get scouts in LSS and after that flesh out GH units or get Sternguard) and WS for grav bikes. I am looking to solidify my shooting department and allow some decent alpha strike on top of my beta strike charge from all the TWC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
viddar Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Allies definitely are the way to go now as far as tourneys are concerned. I won't run them otherwise tbh (really feeling fortunate compared to my friends who play orks and GK). That said I don't think there is a one size fits all strategy to it. Between our codex and supplements I think we'll have more than one competitive build, and those builds will benefit more from different allies. Factor in different tournament rules (limits to number of detachments, mission structure, etc.) and I just can't see one force that compliments wolves that well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295753-allies/#findComment-3791549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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