Chaplain_Sam Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Anyone else read the Torrent of Fire article on army winning percentages and such in 7th ed.? http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in I find these articles pretty interesting to read. The sample isn't perfect of course, but the big take-away for us is that Blood Angels are at the bottom of the pack. I kind of like the underdog mentality so this doesn't bother me at all, but I'm curious what other folks think? Honestly I have more fun playing my Blood Angels than any other army because my opponents generally have fun too, win or lose. I think that has something to do with that fact that with BA I'm not clearing the board every game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood & Thunder Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think most don't play blood angels because we don't have the tremendous fire power as some other armies can bring. But we provide a much more enjoyable tactic to the table, mobility. I recently played a game with assault marine spam (40 assault marines) and I had a ton of fun because I was able to have fantastic board control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain_Sam Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think most don't play blood angels because we don't have the tremendous fire power as some other armies can bring. But we provide a much more enjoyable tactic to the table, mobility. I recently played a game with assault marine spam (40 assault marines) and I had a ton of fun because I was able to have fantastic board control. That sounds fun. I've been scheming up a 60+ ASM list to try for fun, but I've always been too short on models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I've said this in a few places before, but I believe its all about "perceived strength". Ultra competitive players will choose the armies that they feel will win -not always the armies they have a burning desire to play, or a fluff interest in. As a result, those players (usually good ones) gravitate towards the armies with higher perceived strength and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when they win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Honestly, we've an old codex designed to function in an area the main rules have since hammered hard. Tournament results are essentially meaningless unless you're going to a big tournament and in a 1 on 1, unless yoy've built a bad army or are playing a tournament list, its not that much of a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I agree with Mort, just look at Bay Area Open 2014. With large percentage of Space Marine players chanses some of them are gonna win/finish high. Blood Angels – 5 Chaos Daemons – 4 Chaos Space Marines – 6 Dark Angels – 2 Dark Eldar – 4 Eldar – 13 Grey Knights – 4 Imperial Guard – 9 Imperial Knights – 2 Necrons – 11 Orks – 5 Sisters of Battle – 3 Space Marines – 26 Space Wolves – 4 Tau – 8 Tyranids – 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 See, I personally don't play my BA as much any more not because I struggle to win, but because I struggle to have enjoyable games with them. That's a much bigger factor than any sort of 'competitiveness'. I'm also sick of facing other marine armies who can do everything Blood Angels can and more, for fewer points, and without a 1/6 chance of each individual unit getting demonstrably worse. I've just played one too many games of lining up against an opposing army of models with the same stat-line that outnumbers me 3:2 based on points costs, has added flexibility because of a chapter tactic that's actually worth using, characters that actually have access to wargear, and don't pay over the odds for a rule that buffs melee combat when the rule is half as good as it was when the codex came out, and hasn't had two editions of nerfing combat into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think most don't play blood angels because we don't have the tremendous fire power as some other armies can bring. But we provide a much more enjoyable tactic to the table, mobility. I recently played a game with assault marine spam (40 assault marines) and I had a ton of fun because I was able to have fantastic board control. The only thing we need are some slight point adjustments and the ability to take double specials in 5 man squads, or any gun in a 5 man tactical. At least a single power weapon in assault squads (like SW can) would be great too to help assault squads to not just bounce off an equal number of marines. I often find myself just short of those points needed to get that extra unit to complete a list, very frustrating when you are effectively fighting matches with a 100-300 pt handicap. I've said this in a few places before, but I believe its all about "perceived strength". Ultra competitive players will choose the armies that they feel will win -not always the armies they have a burning desire to play, or a fluff interest in. As a result, those players (usually good ones) gravitate towards the armies with higher perceived strength and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when they win. Yes and no, those players stay away from certain codex with a good reason. But they are often not good at picking up changes that might make an older dex good. You do well with BA, but your meta is also quite different from most places. Tourney missions are varied and almost anything is allowed. When you're forced to play pure BA and can't patch any holes with FW units or have other restrictions on army comp you feel the power difference a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 HQ pricing and upgrade options are also quite frustrating. Looking forward to 65 point librarians and hopefully some unique BA upgrades for Captains. I also really miss shield of sanguinious, but i suspect that will be a random power, If it comes back i doubt it will be a primaris. I generally like BA alot more after 7th edition. I'm also very optimistic on the new codex as we do not require a big overhaul, just some tweaks. Hopefully a new unit or two, but that's just gravy. My biggest fear is they move assault marines to fast, but looks like GK will keep termies as a troop choice at 33 points per model, so keeping fingers crossed that JP marines will be strong again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Defs right about the different meta. But, the last big tourney (1500 ICON) was no FW or Dataslates. BA defs need a little support from allies etc., though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Honestly, all we need is a points drop and some slight rules tweaking. Descent of Angels is absolutely fine as a combat tactic, Red Thirst could use some work. Mostly, our marines need costed along the same lines as everyone else; lucifer engines need to get cheaper (maybe a 5-10 point optional upgrade, as it's definitely better on a vindicator than it is on a rhino); HQs need to get options (hell, even artificer armour would be nice); need the ability to unlock special/heavy weapons in 5 man units; jump packs need to come crashing down in points. That's all we really need to be competitive. Incidentally, Wings of Sanguinius is borderline worthless as a randomly generated power. I really hope it becomes Mephy specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Since I play exclusively with a handful of friends, I don't see the competitive nature of the game many others do. I agree with Chaplain Admetus when he expresses frustration with an army just not having a chance in most games. I had to shelve my Tau and Eldar for the entire 5th edition. That's what got me into marines, more specifically, Blood Angels. I prefer fast moving armies. Therefore, my marine army was going to be jump pack and transport heavy. I hate GW bikes, so Blood Angels it is. Even though my DIY and Blood Ravens chapters let me play any codex, it tends to be counts as Blood Angels. We'll see what happens my friends move to 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 See, I personally don't play my BA as much any more not because I struggle to win, but because I struggle to have enjoyable games with them. That's a much bigger factor than any sort of 'competitiveness'. I'm also sick of facing other marine armies who can do everything Blood Angels can and more, for fewer points, and without a 1/6 chance of each individual unit getting demonstrably worse. I've just played one too many games of lining up against an opposing army of models with the same stat-line that outnumbers me 3:2 based on points costs, has added flexibility because of a chapter tactic that's actually worth using, characters that actually have access to wargear, and don't pay over the odds for a rule that buffs melee combat when the rule is half as good as it was when the codex came out, and hasn't had two editions of nerfing combat into the ground. Spot on, brother. I've said this in a few places before, but I believe its all about "perceived strength". Ultra competitive players will choose the armies that they feel will win -not always the armies they have a burning desire to play, or a fluff interest in. As a result, those players (usually good ones) gravitate towards the armies with higher perceived strength and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when they win. Yes and no, those players stay away from certain codex with a good reason. But they are often not good at picking up changes that might make an older dex good. You do well with BA, but your meta is also quite different from most places. Tourney missions are varied and almost anything is allowed. When you're forced to play pure BA and can't patch any holes with FW units or have other restrictions on army comp you feel the power difference a lot more. Mort's right about ulta-competitive players and it's only logical that those who have no particular affinity or allegiance would choose the strongest faction. At the same time, this is why a strong competitive BA player can turn up with a dread list or a pod list or whatever and cause a few big surprises. This year's adepticon, a SW pod army came well high up. 6th I think. Personally I resent having to use allies, but yes it is necessary if you want to compete in a tourny environment. With FW allowed at least we can even the odds and even do it in a style befitting our chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Incidentally, Wings of Sanguinius is borderline worthless as a randomly generated power. I really hope it becomes Mephy specific. I reckon, if they keep it, Wings will be an additional 6" jump pack move in the psychic phase. And will be primaris ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Incidentally, Wings of Sanguinius is borderline worthless as a randomly generated power. I really hope it becomes Mephy specific. I reckon, if they keep it, Wings will be an additional 6" jump pack move in the psychic phase. And will be primaris ! Nah. If you do that it would have to confer over onto the unit (otherwise your librarian has to run solo) and they'd probably prohibit charging from it, much like levitation. Otherwise you could stick it on a unit with jump packs... 18" move, and then 2d6 means you have a potential turn 1 assault, and GW won't let that happen because combat is bad (though completely obliterating 20% of your opponent's army with bullets before they even get a turn, totally fine). Too many problems. Having a dedicated psychic phase really limits anything you'd want to do with psychic powers related to movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain_Sam Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Looks like this thread had some activity while I was away! Honestly, we've an old codex designed to function in an area the main rules have since hammered hard. Tournament results are essentially meaningless unless you're going to a big tournament and in a 1 on 1, unless yoy've built a bad army or are playing a tournament list, its not that much of a problem... ehh, I think that's a bit of stretch. The results are far from meaningless. Are they a perfect indicator of codex strength? No. But the stats are a good general representation of the strength of armies relative to one another. The only reason it would be meaningless if an individually was 100% purely a friendly/fluffy player. I've said this in a few places before, but I believe its all about "perceived strength". Ultra competitive players will choose the armies that they feel will win -not always the armies they have a burning desire to play, or a fluff interest in. As a result, those players (usually good ones) gravitate towards the armies with higher perceived strength and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when they win. Good point, Mort. The players who gravitate towards an army they perceive as strong are probably more likely to build maxed out lists too. I agree with Mort, just look at Bay Area Open 2014. With large percentage of Space Marine players chanses some of them are gonna win/finish high. Blood Angels – 5 Chaos Daemons – 4 Chaos Space Marines – 6 Dark Angels – 2 Dark Eldar – 4 Eldar – 13 Grey Knights – 4 Imperial Guard – 9 Imperial Knights – 2 Necrons – 11 Orks – 5 Sisters of Battle – 3 Space Marines – 26 Space Wolves – 4 Tau – 8 Tyranids – 8 That's true, the more space marine players there are the more likely a space marine player is to win the whole thing. But the article was about winning %, not number of top finishes and such. The number of each type of army doesn't have an impact on win % other than making the stats more/less accurate and defining the population of opponents. Incidentally, Wings of Sanguinius is borderline worthless as a randomly generated power. I really hope it becomes Mephy specific. I reckon, if they keep it, Wings will be an additional 6" jump pack move in the psychic phase. And will be primaris ! I'm miss Wings! But the psychic phase is pretty unreliable and honestly I'd prefer it if Mephiston had some equipment/rule that helped him get around without having to roll for it. Edit: grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-beard Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'd like to have weapons on my HQs Honestly, all we need is a points drop and some slight rules tweaking. Descent of Angels is absolutely fine as a combat tactic, Red Thirst could use some work. Mostly, our marines need costed along the same lines as everyone else; lucifer engines need to get cheaper (maybe a 5-10 point optional upgrade, as it's definitely better on a vindicator than it is on a rhino); HQs need to get options (hell, even artificer armour would be nice); need the ability to unlock special/heavy weapons in 5 man units; jump packs need to come crashing down in points. That's all we really need to be competitive. Incidentally, Wings of Sanguinius is borderline worthless as a randomly generated power. I really hope it becomes Mephy specific. I'd also like to have it so that my HQs don't have their very high initiatives reduced to 1 by unwieldy power weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 That's a specific Dante issue. That's going to get fixed, pretty much a guarantee. Look on the bright side, at least he still has hit and run to make use of said initiative. Astorath, on the other hand... I can't see us getting two HQ models that swing at initiative and are AP2. But then the Executioner's Axe also took an indirect nerf by every other axe in the game getting +1 strength... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 How is that a nerf when his axe is still superior in every way? It's S6 permanently and forces rerolls on invuls. It lost nothing except striking at I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 It's a comparative nerf in that whilst it didn't lose much (though in the same way as Dante, it's costed for a model that's swinging at a decent initiative rather than I1), it was also costed to reflect the +2 strength, whereas regular axes give +1 strength. It's better, but not as much better as it was when the codex was printed. Hence, indirect nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 He wasn't worth it in 5th either... At least in my case I always had furious charge coverage on squads in 5th but haven't bothered with that since the nerf to FC. So the difference between a 5th and 6th-7th ed power axe isn't huge to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 PDF Dex was still one of my favs - with the bubbles! I used to run Dante/Corb tag-team of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I enjoyed podding terminators and non insanely expensive DC with jump packs and rending :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I enjoyed podding terminators and non insanely expensive DC with jump packs and rending speaking of which can you imagine if DC come down to 23 pnts a pop for jump pack DC O_O Will finally be able to play JP DC again. rwar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I have 40 of the little buggers waiting in their tray for that day to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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