Sister fluff change in the GK codex

[Jacinda]

I have not seen it mentioned here. No spoilers, but the lamentable Blood tide story has been changed to actually make sense now.

[Warsmith Aznable]

First thing I looked for. Didn't really care about how wargear or any of that changed.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'll admit: I never understood the Sisters hate of that story. From a Sisters point of view, it shows us standing firm against a chaos plague, and then being sacrificed to protect the Grey Knights, because we're less corruptible than they are without our blood.

 

Surely that's showing the Sisters in a relatively good light, apart from the 'had to be rescued' part.

 

I liked it from a Grey Knights point of view, too: It shows that they're Ends Justify the Means types, and that their vaunted "incorruptibility" is a matter of ritual magic and doing what they must, and not simply inherent like the Sisters' immunity is.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

The standing arguement was all about that if the GK's are so uncorruptable as written, that they have never fallen to chaos, tht they are so blessed, why would they need to commit murder, then smear themselves in some blessing of blood (cough... chaos ritual with a shiny name) to fight chaos??

I mean using blood sorcery to fight blood chaos rituals, sounds ridiculous. Another contentious point is that if the Big E, banned sorcey, condemned one of his children for dabling why would he allow a bunch of Knights to be created to use it??

 

It's this sort of fluff we SoB players had with the history that a "will never be named again" created.

I don't care about their rules, i don't care that one of them carries a daemon sword so corrupted that they cannot imprison it in a vault, lest lesser GK's feel its seduction, i don't care that he HAS to carry it, I don't care that carrying it into battle is a sure way of losing it, me throw it into a sun... done.

 

The GK's are a great army, its their fluff that was carried way way way to far for us. They could have made them more sactious than they already are, without the need to muder Sisters just because they felt insecure of their own devine hermetic protections.

[*Furyou Miko]

But that's the whole point - the Grey Knights aren't pure because of some innate, undefinable quality. They're immune to corruption because they have the correct tools - Aegis, training, rituals - to ward their souls against chaos. The blood tide ritual is just part of that arsenal. Grey Knights aren't pure, they're well equipped.

[Thoqqu]

Would have been sweet to see corrupted GK... like the perfect host.

[Knight of the Raven]

Yeah, my understanding of the Daemonhunters codex wasn't that they were innately incorruptible, but that they were the best equipped marines to fight daemons, faith being their greatest tool of all.

 

That said, from what I've read on this forum, the old codex was all "INCORRUPTIBLE 100%, ALWAYS, ALL THE TIME!!!!one!eleven" so the sisters' murder clashed harder than a vestal virgin in a slaaneshi gathering.

[*Furyou Miko]

That was mostly Crowe, actually. I think it's Crowe? The one with the daemon sword.

[Knight of the Raven]

I wouldn't know if it's only his lore entry. I wanted to get the codex to follow Daemonhunters, because I liked that book, but then I was introduced to the lore and how broken the rules were.

Castellan Crowe is indeed the one with the daemon sword. And contrary to others, I wouldn't advise on sending it into a sun. Because then, congra--lations, you've got a daemon sun. The little can probably move on its own now too. You had one job, Crowe. ONE JOB.

[Crimson Hawk]

Oh, if only. The (old) codex had a very tell-don't-show mentality about the whole thing, so throughout the codex it is made clear, without feasible explanation, that the Grey Knights, (I assume) through nature of their training, are incorruptible. However, the Purifiers are even incorruptibler, whilst there appeared to be a tie between Kaldor Driago and Castellan Crowe for the title of the incorruptiblest of them all. But yes, the super-incorruptibility of the Grey Knights was not restrained to Crowe's entry, and as such  made the Sisters-massacre all the more jarring and stupid, at least for me 

[tvih]

Yeah, it just felt stupid and unnecessary.

[Jacinda]

It could have been as easy as "the only way to be sure the nanite corruption does not leave the planet is to wipe out everyone and everything on the planet."  And really, according to the original story, that was how it was set up anyway.

[Marshal Rohr]

How does it make sense now?

[thade]

omg, the 'blood thing'...textbook Woman in Refridgerators trope. Tacky, vapid, and dumb.

 

I haven't read through the fluff yet (waiting to have a paper book to feel in my hands) but here's hoping it has in fact improved somehow. And by improved, I mean either have been removed or not involve the sacrifice of any Sisters by the GK.

[*Furyou Miko]

Having actually read the entry in the GK book, it seems that it hasn't been retconned to respect the Sisters, it's been retconned to either imply that there were no sisters on the planet... or they were all corrupted by the bloodtide. Soo, not really sure I can count this as a win any more.

[Urauloth]

I assumed they'd just make the whole thing quietly disappear and not mention it ever again like they did with a bad, lore-unfriendly fluff snippet from the previous space wolf codex. I guess not.

[Warsmith Aznable]

There's a story earlier on where Draigo leads a strike force to a plague infected world and finds the only hold-outs are the Order of the Vermillion Hand. He talks to their Canoness who then orders the Sisters to go from a defensive posture to an advance straight into the enemy. They all know it's suicide, but they willingly plunge in to assist the Grey Knights in defeating the daemons.

 

Later, deep in enemy territory, Draigo gets separated from his own battle brothers. He finds them surrounded by daemons and being beat up. He tries to reach them but gets surrounded and dragged down. Suddenly the remaining Sisters led by the Canoness show up and force the daemons back, allowing Draigo to fight his way to his battle brothers. The Grey Knights were right outside the enemy's HQ, the final target. The Sisters formed a defensive position and bought the Grey Knights enough time to get in there to accomplish their final task.

 

So, the big difference between the Sisters in the 5th edition codex and the 7th edition codex is that the Sisters are more than just props in the new story. They remain the only faithful Imperials on a planet that basically suddenly turns into a daemon world. They willingly choose to go with the Grey Knights plan even though they know it's a one way trip, because that's the sort of hard that they are. When their allies are in trouble, these Sisters come flying in to the rescue. Then they see what they need to do in order for the mission to be accomplished, and willingly sacrifice themselves to buy more time to get things done.

 

That is a way better depiction of faith in action than being used as paint ever could be.

[*Furyou Miko]

OK, yeah, I didn't read the Draigo fluff. That's awesome.

[Transgressor O'Malley]

I assumed they'd just make the whole thing quietly disappear and not mention it ever again like they did with a bad, lore-unfriendly fluff snippet from the previous space wolf codex. I guess not.

I am very curious, what was that snippet? Feel free to PM me if it's too off topic.

 

On topic, if Matt Ward was a competent writer, a brilliant move would have been to firmly establish that the GKs are actually on average worse people than the average Astartes because of all the daemonic business they have to get involved in, and play on how the only reason they haven't all fallen is that they have the right tools and strategies for dealing with it. This would make the Sisters murder make perfect sense and be the capstone on this theme: in order to do what they do to fight daemons, the GKs have to do terrible, horrifying things which would be unforgivable if the ends didn't justify the means.

[Kastor Krieg]

The question of the inherent incorruptibility is actually raised in-character by an Inquisitor talking to Hyperion, one of the Grey Knights (who in previous life was none other but Zael, of the Ravenor series!).

[*Furyou Miko]

And what does Hyperion reply? That's the important part.

 

O'Malley, the old passage was thus;

 

876.M41 The Bloodtide Returns

 

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the orgies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

 

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga'nath's spirit can escaped his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warp, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

- Codex: Grey Knights, 5th ed., pg. 15

The newer version effectively replaces the second paragraph and the penultimate sentence of the first paragraph with "The Grey Knights show up and kicked its arse.", removing any mention of the Sisters from the entry and just saying "The Bloodtide instantly corrupted or destroyed everything it swept across".

[Kastor Krieg]

I can't find the exact dialogue, but in internal monologue he says:

 

Some say the Emperor's Gift [i.e. being made from His genestock, being Sons of Anathema for daemons, along with the inherent psychic ability - KK] makes us immune to corruption. This may be so, or it may be that our resistance requires a simple explanation for our Inquisitorial masters' minds. Sometimes I believe our lords and mistresses within the ordos fail to understand this about us. As sons of Titan, we are incorruptible through tireless effort. No soul is born perfect, but a warrior can be bred to become it.

[Leif Bearclaw]

And what does Hyperion reply? That's the important part.

 

O'Malley, the old passage was thus;

 

876.M41 The Bloodtide Returns

 

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the orgies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

 

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga'nath's spirit can escaped his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warp, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

- Codex: Grey Knights, 5th ed., pg. 15

The newer version effectively replaces the second paragraph and the penultimate sentence of the first paragraph with "The Grey Knights show up and kicked its arse.", removing any mention of the Sisters from the entry and just saying "The Bloodtide instantly corrupted or destroyed everything it swept across".

 

I think O'Malley was asking what had been removed from the Space Wolf Codex. Which is something I'm also curious about.

[Transgressor O'Malley]

Yep, that was two different points in one post; sorry if I was unclear.

[Crimson Hawk]

Ok, now I have to read the Emperor's Gift, because that not only negates the point in my post, but also makes about 100% more sense of half the stuff in the codex (which, to be fair, isn't saying much to begin with)