Cleverness and Cowardice, Heroism and Stupidity

[Frater Cornelius]

Recently this rather philosophical question popped into my mind. Where is the line between a tactically savvy general and a cowardly one.

For example, your army is outnumbered so you decide to withdraw and lure the enemy into an ambush by faking a retreat, thus gaining the upper hand. It is clever, but is it honourable?

Another example, you lure the opponents army outside of his fortifications with a mobile force while other units infiltrate the now almost abandoned fort and take control of the siege weaponry there.

Someone said that the only honour is in survival. I disagree. But at the same time, when you are dead, no-one will tell any story about you. But what stories would there be about you in the above cases? What a dirty player you are?

 

This brings me to another point. The general does not do any of the above moves but makes a final stand. Heroic, but foolish, because certain death awaits him.

 

So, being Space Wolves players and legends and sagas are pretty much our life-blood, I want to ask you: for you, where is that line between being a coward and an honourable general?

[Karack Blackstone]

Bravery, honor, duty, stupidity, anything else one wants to discuss about how one conducts a fight, this thead is going to be watched closely.

 

So, without further ado...

 

Honor is keeping one's word.  The entire battlefield of WH40K is the range one has to all maneuvers present upon the field of battle.  The problem is when tactical moves that appear cowardly are very different than charging in blindly and fighting with no cunning whatsoever.  People tend to react to what they see, feel, rarely do they let what they think or inquiry guide their thinking internally.  My single greatest issue with how any game, including WH40K, is played, is that one person's tactical flanking is another person's cheese move; one player's well executed charge is another's foolhardy rush into a losing battle. 

 

This game presumes some pretty complicated stuff in the setting has occurred to assemble to two fighting forces present upon the field of battle.  WH40K is a simulation of hyper tech battle, something that we likely will not see in real life for some time, however, it is in the skills of strategy, tactics and logistics that one shines, and another does not, one proves either a layman or a skilled individual based upon how one interacts with the moves of the enemy, and what counters that one uses to do their best to win the fight.

 

Words are not deeds.  Let your deeds stand upon their own merits, and you shall find the honor your deeds have earned.

 

This philosophical discussion could be had for quite some time; so, in short, keep one thing in mind.  If you doubt that something is honorable, find out, or don't do it.  Keeping one's honor is not always easy, however, more rewarding is the deed done in the name of honor than anything one can do in the name of oneself.

[tochtli]

Toys gentlemen, little plastic toys !!!  On another note regarding honour, required reading could be - STEEL INFERNO - 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy - by Michael Reynolds     

 

Didn't someone in GAME OF THRONES say that "honour was 's**t', but you do it anyway "  ?         

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

My Wolf Lord sees it as such:

 

If you are a being of conscience, his presence is not required. He will grant any being the chance to depart if they conducted themselves with honor and some trace of dignity. You get the chance, before any blows are struck, to depart.

If you depart he has no fight with you. He removed a threat from the All-Father's realm while saving his forces for another fight.

 

If this offer is rejected, all notions of honor are dismissed. He will pull any trick, feint or action to exterminate you and your followers. There is no room for further negotiations. The chance for a peaceful resolution was dismissed, and you've proven yourself no better than an rabid animal.

 

I see this offer being given to the: Tau and their auxiliaries, the Eldar, any human world free of Chaos taint, any of the various branchs of the Imperium's fighting forces currently present.

My Wolf Lord offers nothing but death to any follower of the Chaos Pantheon, Orks, Nids, Necrons. 

 

WLK

[Frater Cornelius]

Toys gentlemen, little plastic toys !!!  On another note regarding honour, required reading could be - STEEL INFERNO - 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy - by Michael Reynolds     

 

Didn't someone in GAME OF THRONES say that "honour was 's**t', but you do it anyway "  ?         

 

Well, actually I though about it when playing Shogun 2 and doing some cunning tricks to make up for a big numerical disadvantage ;) So it's actually pixels!

 

But this is not about game mechanics or the constraints of any given rules. This is full on philosophy and discussions of personal opinions.

 

Some good stuff here already, keep it going.

[Vykryl]

Look to history for an idea, the war between USA and CSA maybe.

 

General Lee has been considered a tactical genius. I've also read an opinion that he made many tactically desperate moves, against standard military doctrine, that caught his opponents flat footed with his audacity. Could be a mixture of both.

 

General Grant wasn't much for tactics, he just dogged after Lee until he wore him done. Lee's army won most of the engagements, but that didn't matter in the end. Of course this was basically General Patton's strategy, even if you get your button stomped, attack.

 

In the end it's only sound tactics if it works. If it doesn't then the General is a fool. Both sides will accuse the other of dirty tactics and claim their side fought with honor. In the meantime the soldiers will do what they have to to survive the schemes of their officers.

 

When I get home I'm going to look up a passage from a John H. Carroll book that sorta fits this topic.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Honor and heroism...............ahhh the age old military question. Heroics and honor happen if you win and live to tell the tale AND (this is the big part) your society believes you to be honorable and heroic etc. You could be a absolute genius tactically and strategically fight the good fight win everything hands down..............always apply the right amount of force but if your society thinks you're a coward or dishonorable then it is very hard to dissuade that notion. The sad part is military arms of any society that lasts are a very small percentage of the population.

 

Example how many billions of people in the Imperium? Now how man space marines of all chapters? How many guard? Still a fair bit smaller than general population I would wager. So unfortunately a lot of the time it falls to the perception is 9/10ths of reality rule. Perceived as a coward and whether or not it is the truth becomes irrelevant.

 

Now from general to general terms I think it goes like this: We join the battlefield in order to achieve our goals. Usually on a strategic level both sides have a fairly clear idea of what the other sides strategic goals are. I'm here to wipe you off the face of the planet. You are here to take section A of land away from my country faction etc. Tricks of the trade are what I would consider acceptable. Sneaking around a flank. Infiltrating for a sniper shot or to open the gates. Dropping an orbital space platform on top of my army all valid. Poisoning local populace so eventually all my troops are sick and everyone croaks? Not cool. Non combatants are just that. They shouldn't be used as a tool and not for terror tactics or to rack up body counts.

 

All that is very serious and there are millions of books and thousands of generals whom are perfect examples of military genius. Stupidity can be changed at the drop of a hat..........snatch victory from defeat. Lose because grass was two inches higher than expected and bogged down troops. Or maybe the guy and army were just unlucky. Results are what make a general great or a laughing stock I've found in 12 years of military service with lots of history studied. You win you are awesome. You lose you can still be great. Lost too much and that's it. You could be Patton or Alexander the Great reincarnated. If you lose the wrong battle at the wrong time (socially, economically, perceptually) you will be the worst general ever.

 

Ok almost done with this long rant. Gamewise a good general I think realizes we are playing a game with little plastic men and if you take it too seriously you may or may not burn out other players. It is for fun and for narration and collecting and painting and getting together and saying "Dude! That was awesome." If both sides can say that once in a game at least you are doing it right.

 

my 2 cents

 

DoC

[Vampyrer0me0]

The norse had an idea of inside and outside people. Those you were going to war with did not get the same treatment as those that you had bonds of society with. Id imagine wolves have a similar idea, those that can be reasoned with are, those that cant/shouldnt be are destroyed mercilessly.

 

As far as courage and cowardice. It is not cowardice to retreat when you know you need to do so to have the strength to attack again and win. Retreat becomes cowardice when it is a rout, when you run before the other options have been exercised. It is a matter of intention, if you are running for no reason other than to save your skin its likely cowardice. If you have a plan to attack once more, or a strategy developed from the retreat you are probably not a coward. I guess what I am saying is that cowardice is a selfish act, and retreat isnt. 

 

Stupidity and courage. Assaulting a force that you have no chance of winning I think falls into the same idea as above. Its about intentions, are you so prideful that you think you can win even though the odds are against you? or so thirsty for glory that you will ignore wisdom? then you are suffering from stupidity. If you are assaulting a huge force because it is what needs to be done to win the day, with a prayer in your heart and a howl on your lips. Then thats courage.

[The Rose Princes]

would you cal the Mongol Army dishonorable?
 

 

So the Mongols would ride up to the European army, fire a volley of arrows, and disperse (ride away). As European feudal armies lacked discipline. Often the Knights would charge after the fleeing Mongols, believing that they were "running away". However the Mongols were in fact laying a trap. For it was their intention to lure away the mounted cavalry from their infantry. They then would defeat each part in turn, who needed one another to fight a successful battle.  The heavy knights would soon tire from chasing the fleeing Mongols. On seeing the Knights tire, the Mongols would then counter attack, the exhausted knights, who's horses were trained for quick attacks and not long pursuits weighed down by armor.  Once the knights were defeated. The Mongols would be free to attack the Infantry. Who on foot, could do little against the Mongols who would constantly ride up to them firing volley of arrows into them.

 

of course you would call Mongols dishonorable!!!!  but, they were so epically effective.  (and if there was any army as a direct translation of rules to reality GW got right, it was The White Scars)

 

 

For me, every aspect of the game is part of the game:  why i play Tyranids in tournaments, i put almost every model i own on my display board, cramming 200+ gaunts and genestealers in a 2x2 field; it gets the player sweating seeing the sheer number he's facing.  when i loose a lot of hormagunts to a large shooting volley,  i nonchalantly grab handfuls of models away as if it's not a big deal... a drop in the bucket to the stuff you didn't kill.  

 

when i play my Oger Kingdoms, i have a blood stain apron and toque blanche i kept from cooking school (seriously, it's in there good) and i wear it to tourney's and just keep saying "nyum nyum.......... nyum nyum!" (see Azande warriors).  it's funny and unnerving to see a 6'2" dude who looks like he wants to eat you. 

 

psychology is part of the game.  if the player is out of his comfort zone, i'm already ahead.

 

the other thing is, i'm wicked silly.... as if you can't tell by now this far down the post.  but i have excellent tactics and a quick mind, so i can joke and move into positions and the tactics are deceptive and exact, but looks just like casual placements.  it's not just the rules, it's the player.

 

 

 

i'm gonna save actual philosophical conversation for later if we go to that... i don't want to dust my philosophy degree off without due cause.

[Apok]

In Sturm Brightblade's words (dragonlance chronicles) "My honor is my life, and my life is my honor".if you can acheive a glorius death in the fields of battle, you can rest easy, knowing you did the best you could in the life of a profecional soldier.a valourous deed will be remembered through the ages, where a victory, no matter how important will fade from memory in time.all that remains in history is glorious acts of heroism, victories are only counted n numbers and statistics.The sons of Fenris, being bred for war and nothing else would think little of anything beyond glory and valor.a victory is the most important thing for a leader but for the warrior, honor is the only road to his ideals' accomplishment.Of course what i just wrote matters only for warriors of different ideology from a mercenary or a drafted soldier who is not  bred from infancy to wage war.the only such warriors in history (and correct me if i'm wrong, were the greek hoplites and the feudal knights).if i can say anything about heroism and cowardise in realistic modern settings, my somewhat long experience with airsoft games has tought me that "whoever hides and stays quiet the longer,avoiding battle, is the last to die" :D

[spjaco]

A hundred years from now few will remember, or care; what caliber bullet was used, what tactic was used, they will remember who won and who lost.

 

Remember the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army lost every major battle they fought against US forces, but they ponied up and fought everyday, anyway.

 

My father remembered a Huey that came back with a crossbow bolt in its tail boom.  A FRACKIN CROSSBOW BOLT! 

 

Is that stupid?  Maybe.  But its crazy brave too.

 

In combat when I am outnumbered I will into charge my enemy then break off the attack before they can reposition to counter my attack.  I then move to a new location and attack again, stinging, like a wasp; from multiple angles/directions/methods until the enemy is either defeated or no longer combat effective. 

 

In training units to deploy I have beaten 40+ soldiers with a force of only four using this very type of tactic.  My opponents were openly ticked off about it, and that meant that not only did I beat them in the physical sense, I beat them mentally too.

 

Honor is something old men at a bar can talk about when the bleeding is done. 

[Knight of the Raven]

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.

[spjaco]

Courage lasts as long as the ammo does.  Then Bravery kicks in.

 

 

For some.

[spjaco]

The norse had an idea of inside and outside people. Those you were going to war with did not get the same treatment as those that you had bonds of society with. Id imagine wolves have a similar idea, those that can be reasoned with are, those that cant/shouldnt be are destroyed mercilessly.

 

As far as courage and cowardice. It is not cowardice to retreat when you know you need to do so to have the strength to attack again and win. Retreat becomes cowardice when it is a rout, when you run before the other options have been exercised. It is a matter of intention, if you are running for no reason other than to save your skin its likely cowardice. If you have a plan to attack once more, or a strategy developed from the retreat you are probably not a coward. I guess what I am saying is that cowardice is a selfish act, and retreat isnt. 

 

Stupidity and courage. Assaulting a force that you have no chance of winning I think falls into the same idea as above. Its about intentions, are you so prideful that you think you can win even though the odds are against you? or so thirsty for glory that you will ignore wisdom? then you are suffering from stupidity. If you are assaulting a huge force because it is what needs to be done to win the day, with a prayer in your heart and a howl on your lips. Then thats courage.

 

Don't forget the reasons for attacking may be varied.  Just because you have no hope of winning a protracted engagement does not mean you attacked to defeat your foe.

 

In guerilla warfare the guerilla will often attack a superior force in order to buy time for various assets of theirs to escape, sometimes senior leaders as well.  Even though the superior force wins the firefight, the guerilla movement lives to fight another day, and this is a victory in itself.

 

How many times does a wasp have to sting you before you realize you need to leave them alone?  Its either that or find a better way to confront them.

[Knight of the Raven]

Fighting fair also depends on who you're fighting.

 

You fight fair against those who deserve a fair fight. And if you, the righteous, the defender of the weak, the savior of the oppressed, are out to kill them to begin with, then it's obvious they didn't deserve a fair fight.

 

Orks, tyranids, tau, necrons, eldar of all kinds, traitors, heretics, selfish inquisitors... these all prey on the people of the Imperium and as such, the Space Wolves have no reason to offer them a fair fight.

[spjaco]

Let me put it this way, if my opponent is around to debate whether or not I fought them fair....

 

THEN I DID NOT DO MY JOB!

[Spacefrisian]

You ask the question if its fair if you lure your opponent out of some position to strike tham at a weak spot?

 

Ofcourse it is, and its how you are supposed to play the wolves anyway, wear opponent down and lure them to a site of battle of your chosing, than sink your fangs in them.

 

Wolves arent crusaders that yell and scream honour and duty and that kind of stuff, nor blood thirsty maniacs, Spacewolves are predators and should act as such. Its also in the lore btw.

 

Be proud of those kind of tactics as that shows you are a real Wolflord. Grab some ale.