what does deathwing have grey knights don't?

[durdle-durdle]

So having been an avid fan of Deathwing since I first saw them and collecting an army over the past year, I saw the Grey Knights codex at my LGS.  After having flipped through it, my resolve for my Deathwing was shaken.  While I love the Deathwing look and fluff, I also rather like the Grey Knights look and fluff, but their rules seem almost strictly better than Deathwing.  While we both have scoring terminators, the main differences I see are as follows:

Deathwing

-fearless (the number of times this has screwed me into staying in a combat I didn't want to be in vs being able to fail morale and having a chance of getting out, but possibly running off an objective is beyond count)
-Deathwing assault (This rule I love.  No complaints here)

-Vengeful Strike (again, I love this rule, but it is useful for only one turn

-requires Belial. ( While Belial is a bad ass, I usually just use him for the one-use non-deep strike mishap on one squad.  This heavily encourages tying up a large amount of points up with him which is usually less than amazing, IMO.  And if I don't want him, too bad.  It's the only way I can do Deathwing.  (I don't really care for ravenwing or greenwing too much.)

 

grey knights

-nine points cheaper per terminator, if i remember correctly

-psychic ownage when compared to Deathwing

-Doesnt need me to take a character to unlock troops

-has an FOC which gives each squad a 2/3 chance to deathwing assault, basically.  While not as dependable, still nearly the same.

-access to stormravens (jesus, I want this so bad)

-nemesis banner grants a 12" fearless bubble, so if you really like fearless, it's still not hard to do.

-dreadknight. 

 

 

Another thing is that i'm very worried that when the dark angels next codex comes out (in a few years), they won't have access to troop terminators anymore like the more recent codexes.  While this wouldn't stop me from going unbound, unbound is frowned upon at my store by several people, and banned from tournaments.

 

What do we have that makes us on par with Grey Knights that I'm missing?

[Master Avoghai]

Non scatter termis?

 

Power fist?

 

Possibility to combine with bikes?

 

Venerable Land Raider?

 

Plasma cannon?

 

 

Another thing is that i'm very worried that when the dark angels next codex comes out (in a few years), they won't have access to troop terminators anymore like the more recent codexes. While this wouldn't stop me from going unbound, unbound is frowned upon at my store by several people, and banned from tournaments.

 

I don't see what allows you to be so categoric and also what new codex you are talking about...

[Lucien Eilam]

The rest of the Dark Angels codex. If you want to artificially limit yourself, that's up to you, but it's not the way GW designed the army to work.

 

 

 

Another thing is that i'm very worried that when the dark angels next codex comes out (in a few years), they won't have access to troop terminators anymore like the more recent codexes.

 

I think a Codex Deathwing supplement would be a pretty safe bet in that eventuality.

[Red Fury]

Dark Angels are supposedly going to be updated before next summer.

 

But for now, I would say that the Deathwing has several options that the GK don't, it's pretty obvious so I'm not going to write a list.  The real problem is the points balance seems to be way off, drop the prices and Deathwing is unique and fun again.  

[durdle-durdle]

Oh, i forgot another pro for the deathwing: split fire. The ability to shoot two krak missles/ an assault cannon into the back of a tank while shooting 8 storm bolter shots at a guard squad is so very useful. Don't have LOS to a good armor facing?  Shoot everything but one stormbolter into a squad of guard, and charge a nearby tank because i shot it with two stormbolter shots. Everyone i know always forgets about split fire.

[Liberame]

3++

[aura_enchanted]

Don't forget the dwk's, and pred relic of the unforgiven. They are the real MVP.

[Kilofix]

IMHO 3++ option on any squad is huge (esp. when you inadvertantly get hit by an AP1 / AP2 Large Blast Template).

 

I just saw 6 Thunderwolves kill 8 GKTs because of the former's 3++ saves (and conversely Rending).

[durdle-durdle]

Do grey knights not have access to a better invuln than the 5++ termie save?

[Kilofix]

I dont have the new Codex but I think it was 2++ with the Staff but only in CC. Doesn't help when a Vindi, Doomsday, Devil Dog, Errant or similar drops a pie plate from range on them.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Apple terminators and orange terminators. They do stuff their way, we do ours, that's why their rules are different and that's way they play in a different style, there is no "better terminator" even if we are speaking of a points difference.

If one is not happy with the DW terminators he can always start a GK army to quench his thirst for power.

[Malus Trux]

What the Chaplain just said pretty much nails it. Personally I think running the two together makes for a mean anti-Chaos force. DW has buffs against Chaos Marines while GKs have buffs against Chaos demons. Finding common ground to purge the enemies of the Imperium for fun and profit is what its all about.

 

As for invul saves, Grey Knights can only buff their 5++ with psychic powers. Defensively the stave only grants adamantium will now. Of course you could always take Azrael. Still get troop terminators & he gives 4++ to whatever unit he joins.

[Master Avoghai]

Dark Angels are supposedly going to be updated before next summer.

Source?

 

All the rumours state that the goal of GW is to replace all the soft cover codex/Army Book into hard cover versions + WHFB release before end 2015.

If only a hard cover dex should be redone during this period of time, it would be chaos space marines due to announced releases and most of its content being not playable.

[Quixus]

Venerable Land Raider?

Don't forget those are dedicated land raiders. With Belial they even get Objective Secured.

[JeffJedi]

Preferred Enemy: CSM?

[Kastor Krieg]

If one is not happy with the DW terminators he can always start a GK BT army to quench his thirst for power + ZEAL +.

Crusaded that for you, Brother ;)

[durdle-durdle]

Apple terminators and orange terminators. They do stuff their way, we do ours, that's why their rules are different and that's way they play in a different style, there is no "better terminator" even if we are speaking of a points difference.

If one is not happy with the DW terminators he can always start a GK army to quench his thirst for power.

I am actually very happy with my death wing. Its just sometime the grass seems greener on the other side, and I wanted to see other peoples opinion on it.

 

Having gone over this thread, we do have a lot of great things I didn't realize set us apart from the others.

[SvenONE]

This isn't really a fair contest, the "pros" DA have over GK are either acquired through similar means.

 

GK are meant to be a terminator heavy army.  The DA/DW lists are something that exist simply because they gave us an option.

[SnakeChisler]

So now they've peeled off Paladins so they can no longer be troops and gutted the Inquisition it doesn't look like were not going to loose Terminators and Bikes out of Troops slots if indeed they decide to come up with a new codex so soon

 

Just to get some of our current stuff working without Bikes as troops and Terminators as Troops we'd have to pay a Marine/Scout tax in a Combined Arms Detachment?

 

I'm happy enough to pay a bit over the odds points wise and keep us as we are, if they did it properly with Ravenwing Formation & Deathwing Formation maybe but that forces you down a strict build most of the guys like to mix/match their Death/Raven wings to suit thier own playing style.

 

Personally think 7th is great in a lot of respects but the take what you want thing has been really overplayed, yes its something different and formations that aren't OP are viable but which ones are they and who decides and Lords of War are a complete crock on the one hand you have Draigo on the other there's a 750 point Stompa.

[Kilofix]

Also - Deathwing isn't hampered and doesn't die to the new Culexus (ignores armor / Instant Death to Psykers, negates Warp Charges, forces Psyk success only on a 6, Psykout Grenades cause Perils on a HIT / not a Wound).

[IanSturrock]

For me, the 11-point points difference is too huge. Yes, DW have some advantages; yes, so do GKT. Bear in mind that if we want TH/SS, we're then paying *half as much again* for our Terminators as GKs are for theirs. That's before you add the Belial tax! You could get a unit of GKTs for significantly less than the cost of Belial alone.

 

If you want to play an army that plays like deep-striking Deathwing, then Grey Knights do it flat-out better than Dark Angels, now, particularly when you consider deep-striking Dreadknights (MUCH better than any Dreadnought + Drop Pod combo that we have).

[Interrogator Stobz]

We should do it differently, just like the good Chaplain says. We are Sons of the Lion, not some tool of the High lords.

 

But it does all come down to points on the table top. That is all I'd like looked at.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Stobz,

 

By that logic a devistator squad has no place in any marine codex because MM attack bikes do the same job cheaper.

 

But anyone who has played both units, and better still both units in the same list, can tell you that while they both hunt tanks well, they do so in a very different way. Also both units have very specific weaknesses, that the other unit easily overcomes.

 

Back to the topic of the GK vs. DW... sure TH/SS DW models are more expensive than stock standard GKT.

If the player was smart he would not direct those 2 units against the same targets, and certainly would not pit one against the other.

Well at least I wouldn't send the GK to assault the DW... because the GK would get creamed.

 

We are all W1 so force is useless.

GKT at I4, hit on 4s, would on 4s, DW save on 2+

DW at I1, hit on 4s, wound on 2s, GKT save on 5++

That seems pretty one sided to me... or did I miss something.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm not sure how my statement was interpreted that way; neither unit should not be played solely on cost alone but cost becomes a huge factor when multiplied across a 'pure' army.

 

That is the issue, not of selective awesomeness vs. a small type of high value target (as you correctly say we would likely win one on one) but of all-round usefulness at a reasonable price.

 

Which is better is dependant on the rest of your army; players of pure DW armies choose to miss out on some of our other good options where GK armies that maintain the pure looking theme are more effective across the board and gain resilience through the extra bodies.

[Master Avoghai]

Having read and started thinking about the GK army list, I would say we are not concurrent but rather complete each other...

 

I mean... Let's imagine a allied detachment composed of stern and one squad of GK termis with psycannon.

 

Stern automatically knows sanctuary, so imagine what he can do in a DW knights squad... And since you'll use the allied detachment and not the specific GK detachment, the GK termis have the "objective secured" special rule...