What are you hoping for from Talon of Horus?

[Prot]

I was originally going to post this in Black Library, but then I realized, I'm not sure I care what a terran lovin' fool wants of the book.

Seriously though I thought it would be interesting to hear what Chaos folk want from the book or even the series BEFORE it gets here. Then we could come back and see if maybe we asked too much, or even too little. Or maybe we are totally taken by surprise.

For myself, I have to say I know I've been very hard on GW for how they portrayed Horus through all those Crusades. I don't want to get stuck in a debate about the crusades, but just for me I view this as Abaddon's stage. NOT Horus'. I know they are tied at the hip, but I'm hoping to see Abaddon come out of Horus' shadow and crush it to dust.

I always thought back to that moment when Horus turned and wondered how much of that decision was a hallucinogenic nightmare/possession and how much of it was truly Horus? With Abaddon the hatred is real from within. His decision was always his alone, and not coerced.

I know Abaddon goes on a hippy journey and finds himself while killing space hippies and making friends with other space hippies. But at the end of the day, I'd like to see the guy come across as someone or something that I can envision spanking the Emperor right in front of Guilleman's frozen corpse.

At the same time I have read Warlords: Abaddon (I recommend it. It's a quick read and gives some interesting insight I haven't read before.... what he does to Berzerkers and Emperor's Children that have abandoned him is quite sadistic for example.) I hope to see that Abaddon is not just an animal... there hopefully is more than fear uniting the Crusades.

Anyway, I didn't mean to post this long thing, but I guess I might hope for too much, especially for the first book. I'm hoping the space hippie journey is shortlived. I've always admired Abaddon for not getting in too deep with the hippies. It's his feats in real space that always kept me intrigued with him.

Sorry for blabbing, obviously it's a topic we could probably debate until release, and those are my hopes. I'm curious what you guys are expecting/hoping for.

[Tenebris]

Well I am quite grounded on what I expect from the book. I simply want some hints on the Legion Wars, at least the scale and the major battles to wrap my head around this very important string of events for every traitor legion. I want to learn some more about my beloved Thousand Sons and in the end I simply want to read an epic tale, the beginning of an odyssey about First Captain Abaddon and his adventures before he was crowned Warmaster of Chaos. I think this odyssey is a much a Black Legion tale as it is the personal story of Abaddon and his closest lieutenants. As for the writer himself, from his snippets and the short story Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos I am very much confident that Chaos will be presented in all its glory, both in the martial aspect as well as the philosophical one too. 

[Chaeron]

Whatever it is: I won't be disappointed.

[the jeske]

How/why is the first possession totaly different from the one used durning the legion war and how did the BL dudes get a third way of possessing marines off.

 

What happened to the fleet that was shadowing the WB durning heresy. Did they get killed off by imperials, ended up in the storm , where they ever reunited with the BL main force. Where they the joined by the dark mecha dudes, as some of those were kind of a runing away in the same direction. And in general what happened to all the BL fleets, as they had the biggest armada of all legions

 

How muchwas the EC rise to being  the super legion was due to their primarch being possessed, unpossessed, then possessed again etc.

 

How did abadon manage to fit horus claw and where does he get the special ammo needed for the shoty part of the weapon.

 

Why couldn't abadon sacrifice a horus clone to  get his boons, instead of his poor bro.

[the emperor is scottish]

I want till see what adb does best and humanize the characters like he has in previous books.

 

Id also be interested in reading about the legion wars. Maybe a little about the IW. Would be cool to see what he would do with them.

 

Id like to see what befell little horus and Horus other lieutenants.

[Midnightmare]

What do I want? To be entertained and find out new things about the Legion, characters I already know and love, and about new characters I am yet to discover.

 

I know he will have hit this one out of the park, and can't wait to read it 

[Ammonius]

I am hoping for a book-length version of the now-classic AD-B post about life in a warband. I want to see all the things that living in the Eye does, and be thrilled and inspired by the secondary characters that are not necessarily part of the olde chaos lore of yore, but that have been written with the modern vision of what it meant to live in that time and place in the 40K universe.

 

I look forward to this new addition to the grand story of the Chaos experience.

[MaliGn]

A decent read on the crapper? I mean no offense to A D-B when I say this I have enjoyed the books of his that I have read, but I am not as invested in black library novels as an accurate telling of the history of 40k as some people. 40k is a setting first and foremost in which you are encouraged to tell your own stories. If you look back at several key pieces of 40k history then they stem from the home games of the original designers. To me the novels are more of an example of how the universe could be, much like the way different comic book writers will take characters in different directions, and even film makers. It is possible to make your own stories and interpret things your way and your truth of the universe is just as valid as anyone else's. So what I look for in a novel is the same as in any other, a good story, well told, with attention to detail as required (since 40k is such an established property it is easy for the writers to get lost in jargon) but not too obsessive, I.e a book I can happily while away a few minutes with for some slight escapism from a tedious chore and some peace and quiet away from the family.

[Kol Saresk]

How/why is the first possession totaly different from the one used durning the legion war and how did the BL dudes get a third way of possessing marines off.

This is already answered as early as Censured, Betrayer and Vengeful Spirit. Already that early we see the Unburdened(Censured), second generation of Gal Vorbak(Betrayer and The Underground War) and the Lupercali.

 

The Unburdened-What we have seen of them in Censured, Vulkan Lives and Unremembered Empire, we know four things. 1.)Their process of daemonic possession was created by Erebus. 2.)It consists of the aspirant covering his body in ritual symbols and then being around enough bloodshed until a daemon takes notice. 3.)They can be killed by something as simple as a fall from a great height. 4.)Although they become wracked with a high amount of irreversible mutation, the human is completely in ascendance.

 

Lupercali-Consists of using the body of essentially a brain dead Son of Horus as a vessel for a Daemon. No evidence of the host's identity has been witnessed and it appears the daemon is fully in control. However, despite this the only mutations seen are the hosts' bodies becoming enveloped in black flames while in the midst of combat. It is unknown if the daemon voluntarily restricts itself so it can pretend to be the host in a manner similar to Fulgrim's possession, or if the process restricts the daemon's power and it then chooses to pretend to be the host for simple amusement and to hide its true identity.

 

2nd Gen Gal Vorbak-Referred to as half-blooded mongrels by Argel Tal, there isn't that much known about them other than how they are created. Which is, the supplicant is killed while in transit through the warp where the gellar fields are the weakest and then the host is possessed by a daemon. Like the original Gal Vorbak, there is evidence of a symbiosis between the daemon and the host, but they don't seem to be as powerful as the Gal Vorbak. For example, in The First Heretic, we see Argel Tal disembowling himself and then continue on as though it were nothing. In The Underground War, the Gal Vorbak we see has trouble just coping with the radiation poisoning of being on Calth's surface.

 

Also, in the Chosen of Chaos short, we are briefly introduced to the Secondborn. From what little we are shown, their creation is similar to the Lupercali in that a daemon is planted in a host body with no consciousness. In this case, the corpses of dead Astartes were filled with the very daemons that devoured the hosts' souls. That is all we know about them.

 

But essentially, the meat of the matter is that the Gal Vorbak are singular in what they could do. Their power levels were simply astronomical when compared to the average possessed. Then again, the purpose in their creation was to convince Lorgar that 1.)a symbiosis between Humanity and the warp was possible and 2.)the boons were well worth any price asked in return. After that, there was no need for the possessed to be all powerful and we have seen since then are varying examples of either the host and the daemon sharing control(usually through a contest of wills) or one or the other being in control most, if not all the time(Vandred/the Exalted).

[Prot]

As a side note, I'm trying to remember far back here, but did Fulgrim die to become possessed? I just recall him staring in a mirror a lot.

 

Really this is probably worth of its own topic (possession in 40K).

 

+Back on topic I was thinking more of what I personally want to see from this book. I think at its heart I am really hoping to see some form of triumph from Abaddon and not just infighting, and internal struggle. I realize we'll probably have to build up to that because we don't even know at which point this story begins. Is it right after the retreat? Is it after Horus' corpse has been messed around with by Bile? etc, etc.

 

But I think Black Legion and Abaddon have been whipping boys too long for a lot of past fiction writers.

 

+I'm also curious about the relationship between Chaos and Abaddon. This to me has been a big, muddy, grey area. We (kind of) know the relationship of Chaos to Marines in Heresy era but does Abe actually get a 1-800 number to call when he wants to talk to one of them? How would that work?

 

+What is Abaddon's real thought about the Heresy and the current war? I mean, does he ever think that a line was crossed that never should have? (But it's far too late now). Does he think the Emperor is evil? Some of that old talk of the Star Child stuff, and how the Emperor MUST die to start anew. Are we going to see any of that deep stuff?

 

+ Further.. does Abe want to see mankind suffer and die? Or does he just think the Emperor is a heinous dictator that needs to be chopped off at the knees? Or is it just blind anger (a little hollow if you ask me) that motivates him to kill the Emperor.

 

+ I also wonder what kind of relationship he has with Primarchs. It is hinted they still see him as the leader of all this. That he barters with them, but they listen to him.... but what does an ascended DP /Primarch look like? what do they do in the warp? Knit little daemons? Sleep a lot? Play video games?  Like Perturabo was kind of taken for a ride by that fool Fulgrim. What does Perturabo look like? All daemonic? Or just 'ghost like'? All kinds of questions here.

[Kol Saresk]

I tried starting up a Possessed Index to keep track of all the various methods of possession we've seen so far. The interest was so overwhelming that it took no time at all to slide off the front page. Sorry, that sarcasm is really thirsty apparently. To answer your curiosity, no. He killed Ferrus, gave control of his body to the daemon in the sword(who he often talked to through a mirror thinking he was talking to himself), was trapped in a painting for a while, but then used the opportunity to learn some new tricks and then steal his body back, trapping the daemon in the painting and then using Perturabo's lifesource and a planetwide eldar graveyard to fuel his ascension.

As I understand it from Chosen of Chaos and A D-B's posts(so don't quote me on it; I was educated in the American Public Education so understanding is relative), it is a flashback to the Legion Wars, specifically when Abaddon is essentially starting the Black Legion. Since Chosen of Chaos pretty much already had it started, I don't know if that means we'll see some grandiose speech and the whole "We all wear the black now!" scene or if the flashbacks will start just afterwards when Abaddon is beginning to gain momentum and draw others to his banner. Most likely the latter.

Eventually, the series is supposed to culminate with the First Black Crusade. Which I feel needs reminding that it was never recorded as being pushed back. Rather, it is recorded as Abaddon bursting from the Eye, seizing Drach'nyen and then "disappearing" and it is after that the Imperium begins to militarize Cadia. Don't know how much of that will stay the same in the series but there is definitely a build up and there will at least be a victory in the capture of Drach'nyen.

[Strazhakov]

I'd like to see Abbadon presented as the threat he is. Show why he is Warmaster and no one else. Explain his endgame in more detail.

Also I crave to know more about Drach'nyen, its history, powers and the role it has played in the Despoilers conquests. Stuff like that. 

 

I trust in ADB to deliver even though I wasn't exactly pleased by his depiction of Abbadon in Soul Hunter. Well it wasn't really bad it just bothered me to no end that Talos  told him "Why you no have arms?..lol" well not that bad but he still basically called him a failure to his face...

[Kol Saresk]

That's because in Talos' eyes, Abaddon is a failure. Talos is the Chaos player who has bought into the part where the majority of the background calls Anaddon a failure because, like the majority of the background, Talos is unaware of just what exactly Abaddon has achieved over the last ten thousand years.

[the emperor is scottish]

I thought talks just hated anyone that worshiped the dark gods.

[incinerator950]

I'm hoping adb makes Abbadin climb over ashes, bones, and bitter hatred in a way that exemplifies the character. Quite honestly reading BL background is like reading Ultramarines fluff nowadays.

[Kol Saresk]

In what way?

[Xenith]

I want to not have to wait a year for the paperback to come out.

[Dragonlover]

Well, whatever I wanted, I didn't get it. Don't get me wrong, it's a good book, but The First Heretic and the Night Lords Trilogy were better. I think Talon lacked the spark, the... enthusiasm that I've come to associate with ADB's writing. You may have over-researched this one a touch dude.

 

Dragonlover

[Son of Carnelian]

I have no idea at this point. The level of hype has gotten completely out of control and almost put me off of the book completely, though no fault of AD-B. The hyperbole I've see thrown about turns me off and I'm not sure if people really, honestly think that this book heralds "a new era for the Black Library." That seems like an overstatement.

[incinerator950]

I haven't (nor do I want to) read a BL novel in... what, five years?

 

Anyway, I would love to go on a topic of possession, but there is no predetermined way to explain it as every writer evolves it.

 

The sixth codex says Possessed Marines are subsumed into the demons, carrying over their memories.

[Kol Saresk]

Under the most prevalent form of possession which is described in Index Chaotica: Possessed, that is mostly true. The supplicant ritually prepares his body by performing eight tasks, each of which he learns through visions. At the end of it, he offers his body up to the daemon that has chosen him. Completely. And totally. The daemon has dominance over the body and mind of the supplicant. However, if the daemon is banished and the host survives(very, very, very unlikely), the host's personality will resurface. And in most cases, will attempt to become possessed again.

[A D-B]

I'm trying to post a lot less on forums right now, largely because of time (and I've avoided every Talon thread since its First Edition release) but I think it's probably safe to stick directly to my own stuff if I keep it brief.

 

First off the bat:

 

I have no idea at this point. The level of hype has gotten completely out of control and almost put me off of the book completely, though no fault of AD-B. The hyperbole I've see thrown about turns me off and I'm not sure if people really, honestly think that this book heralds "a new era for the Black Library." That seems like an overstatement.

 

I... sort of see what people mean. This is a significant point in the lore and in BL's publishing history, in the way the Heresy was a significant point. I'm not saying it's as good, and it's certainly not as renowned, but this is a key moment in 40K lore. I realise there's a lot of hype. I've caught maybe 200 opinions on the book so far, and the worst (also, the only semi-negative) has been Dragonlover's, which was still "It was good" along with some assumptions that are interesting but probably not that accurate. (I don't care if someone dislikes my work. I only care when they assume things about me personally or get something wrong.) But the prevailing opinion is that it's a big deal, and I certainly hope it comes across as a decent science-fiction/fantasy novel, one way or the other.

 

The opinion I've seen overwhelmingly so far is that it's my best work. That'll surely change with its major release, when you'll get a wider spread of reviews - some people will go into it disliking it because it's popular (see: every fandom ever), and others will want X when it gave them Y, and others will just find it not to their tastes, or they wanted things from Book I which will end up in Book II, or Book III, or Book VIII, or whatever else. Some people will just find it boring. The reasons will be - as they always are - many and varied.

 

I can't judge, because all I see are the holes in it (like every writer with their work), but I do see why people are getting excited about it. You'll note that beyond posting 3-4 things on my blog and Facebook, I've done practically no promoting or discussing it on any forums, though. I'm keen not to raise people's expectations or pimp it to them. I'm not That Guy.

 

If anything, the hype terrifies me, because I see some people saying "I want X" when I know that won't show up until later. There's only so much you can put in the first novel of a long series. In terms of the Possessed, f'rex, you don't know all there is to know about the Ringwraiths in Fellowship.

 

And I want there to be many gradients and nuances of possession. The catch-all term that the future Ezekarion use might be Secondborn, sure, but there'll... levels and degrees introduced over time.

 

 

I'd like to see Abbadon presented as the threat he is. Show why he is Warmaster and no one else. Explain his endgame in more detail.

Also I crave to know more about Drach'nyen, its history, powers and the role it has played in the Despoilers conquests. Stuff like that. 

 

I trust in ADB to deliver even though I wasn't exactly pleased by his depiction of Abbadon in Soul Hunter. Well it wasn't really bad it just bothered me to no end that Talos  told him "Why you no have arms?..lol" well not that bad but he still basically called him a failure to his face...

 

About a year ago, a guy I went to high school with (and loathed) mentioned on my Facebook feed: "Jesus Christ, you still like Warhammer? Put away your Magic: the Gathering cards, you--" ...ending with some choice swear words that wouldn't get past this forum's filter.

 

Now, I've never played Magic: the Gathering in my life, but I got where he was going with this. And I looked at all the Space Marines on my desk, forming part of a hobby I love, with some of the funnest (and funniest) weekends of my life happening at party/campaign weekends; and the fact I could feed my family doing a job I loved; and the ridiculous blessing of getting daily compliments from strangers who liked my work, telling me what it meant to them (and many of those stories are very touching, as it happens); and the fact my publisher flies me around the world to meet people and sign stuff. 

 

My penchant to go to war and argue over absolutely anything makes me unpleasant at times, but that time I looked at the guy who knew nothing about me, my situation, my family, or how happy I was, and thought "...eh." And went to go make some tea.

 

That was Abaddon in that scene, when Talos was waxing poetic about how they were all lesser than their fathers. Because Talos and his brothers were indeed lesser, they saw things through that lens. Abaddon listened to all of it, and it meant absolutely nothing beyond an amusing anecdote. There's no arguing with idiots, sometimes. And Talos was famously ignorant, which (I hope...) was one of the reasons he was a compelling character. Down to brass tacks, I'd not be pleased by that depiction of Abaddon if that was all there was, too. So I guess what I'm saying is "Don't worry." That wasn't Abaddon. That was Talos projecting, and Abaddon too uninvested to care about educating a peasant.

[Tenebris]

I think that the Lupercali from A Vengeful Spirit, were quite a direct and quick form of possession. It was crude, unrefined but very effective. It helped to return some severely wounded legionaries to the frontlines as well as it sealed the destiny of the Sons of Horus as a chaos force. Gone was the pomp and pretence of the Word Bearers rituals, it was a painful but brief communion between daemon and marine but it was undeniably effective.  

 

And huzzah ADB, I remember from eons ago when we played together in WoW when I asked you which was your favourite legion in 40k and well... 

 

I can't wait to read about the Black Legion. Really we need to fill the gap of several millennia, or days, or years or eons on what actually happened that transformed the traitor legionaries in chaos space marines. That and we need a hitch-hikers guide across the pivotal events and places in the Eye. I can't wait to read Talon of Horus.  

[Balthamal]

Just going to pop my 2 pence in and try to clarify some of the things I posted in the general board since my attempt at avoiding general fanboyishness muppetry appears to have failed on a colossal scale.

 

When I said this novel could usher in a new era for the BL in general, I didn't mean for it to be taken as "OMG every book from now on is going to be so bad-ass that everything is going to brain-pulpingly mind blowing" I meant it in terms of what publishing a series about the central villain in 40k lore means. Eisenhorn and the Ghosts showed that there was a market for material published away from central GW codices/army books whilst the Horus Heresy series showed that there wasn't just a market for BL to tap into but an out and out goldmine.

 

Abaddon is different. Abaddon has been in the general lore for a very very long time. He had a model and rules before he had a filled out background. He generates hype all of his own because, like Horus, his name carries weight and, unlike Horus, he's been in games. Horus has had a model and rules for 6 months. Abaddon has had them for 20+ years. There has already been a significant amount of paper devoted to him across several editions not to mention appearances here and there doing dastardly things.That presents a challenge. THE challenge. How do you reconcile everything that has gone before, including the most minor details in case they just happen to be vitally important in a few thousand years time line wise. Managing that mountain and still getting out a story that is both engaging and coherent is an achievement in itself, never mind the fact that it's a damn good story to boot. 

 

Do I rate it as Aaron's best work? Still undecided on that. Only one I haven't read is Cadian Blood (no interest in Imperial Guard at all) and I'm going to wait for a full length HH novel with Night Lords (I love Sevatar as a character more than probably anyone else he's written about although now Khayon comes in at second) before trying to decide on this and Betrayer. Do I think there is better to come? Absolutely. For all this book's fine achievements, it's really just Stage 1. I'm trying to keep some objectivity with that, there will be better down the line.

[Prot]

I'm trying to post a lot less on forums right now, largely because of time (and I've avoided every Talon thread since its First Edition release) but I think it's probably safe to stick directly to my own stuff if I keep it brief.

 

First off the bat: /snippage

 

 

Well ADB, thanks for posting. I'm sure the fact you've made any appearance at all will bring people to the thread/discussion that would probably not otherwise participate.

 

Honestly I had/have the most hope in your portrayal in Abaddon specifically. I know this will be very unpopular to say but I did not like Dan Abnett's portrayal of Abaddon in the least. Actually to me, he came off as the school yard ingrate in your own Magic the Gathering story. I realize many will defend Dan's interpretation, however, it was short, and I am admittedly a massive fan of Dan's so I mark everything against Gaunt's Ghosts/Blood Pact. (Not to mention the beautifully woven Unremembered Empire... loved that title.)

 

Abe has been such a one dimensional character for so long.... The really old stuff was so bad... so very bad. But we're all 'experts' on our own opinions... I am very guilty of this as well, but that being said I think the reason ADB was the best choice is his ability to go where some writers seem to tread lightly.

 

That's just my opinion but one thing I found so frustrating about the Horus Heresy series (early on, like the first 10 novels or so) was that no one wanted to tell the story of a Primarch, through a Primarch, or feature a Primarch. It was so frustrating to me seeing these opportunities.... squandered? (If that is the right word).

 

But ADB just flattened that style of telling the story 'around' the story by doing First Heretic. At that time I think we as HH fans were finally exposed to how a Primarch moves, talks, commands, and leads. Until then it was glimpses, second hand stories, etc. But after that book, for me anyway, I noticed the primarchs were suddenly being leveraged left and right. (about time!)

 

You can say it was planned that way if you want. I really don't know, but still I thought finally this is the story we want to read. And as I mentioned other authors suddenly started going that same route. Suddenly the arch got a lot more interesting, and we finally had character behind these demi-gods.

 

That in a nutshell is why I expect a fair amount of Talon of Horus. I realize I may not be making my point very well, but believe me, I make perfect sense after about 2 more cups of coffee....

 

Still anxiously awaiting my copy. Smoked through Scars on the weekend knowing I will probably put anything down once Talon arrives..... Can't wait.