What are you hoping for from Talon of Horus?

[Kol Saresk]

For a minute there I was trying to figure out when Dan portrayed Abaddon and I realized you were talking about Horus Rising. And I admit, I agree with you. In Horus Rising, Abaddon came across as a petulant, spoiled brat who got where he was by being the best liked son after Sejanus. Looking back, I still don't like it, but I rationalize it by thinking of it as a stepping stone upon Abaddon's growth from First Captain to Warmaster.

[Conn Eremon]

As a "Terran lovin' fool" ( :p ), I'll be getting the first mass release. Probably the ebook first, but this is one I will likely want on my shelf as well.

 

What I am hoping to get out of it . . . A little bit ago AD-B tore me a new one when I stated my belief that Horus was greater than Abaddon. Okay, not really, he is always quite civil. But he flipped it around, saying Abaddon was more than Horus ever was. I realized I had no investment in my original view, and the way he described it intrigued me. I have always been a fan of Abaddon, and irritated by his meme.

 

So what I am hoping to see in this book is AD-B showing me that Abaddon has surpassed Horus. Since this is the first book of a series, it is likely that Abbadon won't really come to his strength by the end of it. What I am hoping for might be in a later book. That's fine, so long as I enjoy the journey. I'm sure I will.

 

Edit: Isn't it Luperci, not Lupercali?

[Prot]

For a minute there I was trying to figure out when Dan portrayed Abaddon and I realized you were talking about Horus Rising. And I admit, I agree with you. In Horus Rising, Abaddon came across as a petulant, spoiled brat who got where he was by being the best liked son after Sejanus. Looking back, I still don't like it, but I rationalize it by thinking of it as a stepping stone upon Abaddon's growth from First Captain to Warmaster.

 

 

Yup, that's the source I was speaking of. And the reason you mention is exactly the way I figure most people would write it off, but at the time I saw no depth or perception or angle that told me, yea this guy is going to lead one day (even though at that point he was already Horus' right hand man and leader of the Mounrival).

 

Anyway, it is what it is. But in my defense I do recall our first exposure to (for an example) Sigismund and I recall thinking, yea that guy is going to be something to behold in the future.

[Kol Saresk]

For a minute there I was trying to figure out when Dan portrayed Abaddon and I realized you were talking about Horus Rising. And I admit, I agree with you. In Horus Rising, Abaddon came across as a petulant, spoiled brat who got where he was by being the best liked son after Sejanus. Looking back, I still don't like it, but I rationalize it by thinking of it as a stepping stone upon Abaddon's growth from First Captain to Warmaster.

Yup, that's the source I was speaking of. And the reason you mention is exactly the way I figure most people would write it off, but at the time I saw no depth or perception or angle that told me, yea this guy is going to lead one day (even though at that point he was already Horus' right hand man and leader of the Mounrival).

Anyway, it is what it is. But in my defense I do recall our first exposure to (for an example) Sigismund and I recall thinking, yea that guy is going to be something to behold in the future.

Honestly, I wouldn't write you off. I'd agree with you. It was just that to me, that portrayal was so lackluster that I created an excuse, filed it away in the darkest closet and then forgot it existed. Sort of like an Imperial archive.

But I can see what you mean.

[Tenebris]

Well I kinda liked Abaddon in the first three books of the Horus Heresy. He was the archetypical Chtonian warlord. Ruthless, cantankerous, savage in combat but he belied a strength of will and mind behind his façade of bruiser. Nothing to write home about but it is how I envisioned him during the Great Crusade.  

[Marshal Rohr]

What am I hoping for from Talon of Horus? A sequel featuring Sigismund dying on the Talon of Horus. 

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe it was just me, but I didn't exactly see an overall intelligence at work. Just the "I'm better at killing than everyone else so I get to tell everyone how to do it."

 

But alas, personal opinions and all that. I'm just hoping my copy of Talon gets in today.

[Balthamal]

What am I hoping for from Talon of Horus? A sequel featuring Sigismund dying on the Talon of Horus. 

 

spoiler alert

[Marshal Rohr]

It makes sense for Abaddon to be a completely different, more simplistic person during the Heresy. This is a guy whose only language is force, grew up in abject poverty and violence, and transcended humanity as a child. As First Captain, it is implied he is a capable general, and we can argue his intelligence all day, but the ultimate truth is that he is just a commander. He is one of many of those whose names are renowned, but he is still just a commander in a Legion. Only after the Heresy, and his life in the Eye, would he be exposed to the universal 'truth' of how the galaxy works. During the Heresy, chaos is just a force multiplier of creepy monsters, after the Heresy (what I think A D-B has been trying to explain) is that Chaos is resurgent and fulfills its real role as a force of nature, one that Abaddon learns to harness over time and unleash 10,000 years later with a laser focus.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

What am I hoping for from Talon of Horus? A sequel featuring Sigismund dying on the Talon of Horus. 

 

spoiler alert

 

 

Its not a spoiler if we had a multi-page discussion about it less than six months ago.

[Tenebris]

The point is that Horus was a shrewd commander, leader and general, his whole thing was to have a knack for "people" and this is one of the reasons why he was Warmaster afterall, he knew how to lead the other legions, not only his own. I think that while in some parts in the first books Abaddon appears bland, it is my firm belief that one does not become First Captain of the "best" legion just for being a favoured son. In a charisma driven army such as the Luna Wolves where each company was a little warband on its own and where merit actually walked and money did not do the talk, Abaddon was indeed the right man for the job. If Horus wanted a hound he had several in his legion, if he wanted a saint he had several too, but he wanted a ruthless, efficient and smart as hell commander and thus he elevated Abaddon to the rank. I think it is easily to dismiss Abe due to the poor writing but as always he was there and he was damn active and viciously effective wherever he went. I think when you give pause to your own legion, a legion of ruthless warbands and gang leaders of immortals, well there must be something behind your sneer that unsettles people. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I also think its important to note that Horus was the Emperor's Warmaster. Abaddon is not. Probably why Horus failed, maybe?

[Tenebris]

Well looking at the whole thing from another POW, the Captains acted often as proxy commanders for the Expedition Fleets and much like his counterparts, Eidolon, Sigismund, Sevetar... each of this warlords commanded legion armies ample times so each of them was a mini "warmaster" when needs dictated it. Now consider that the Luna Wolves were effectively the "poster child" of the Imperium and even the neophytes in the labs on Terra all wished to be a Luna Wolf someday (cit. Scars). Do you think Abe would last that long as First Captain if he was just a slabheaded brute?

 

PS: I really hunger for this book. I am especially interested in the "Legion Wars" events. Knowing the character of our spikey boys the violence, ferocity and tragedy of those wars is even beyond the events in the Horus Heresy. The only bloodshed in Warhammer that can come close to them is most probably the last days before the Fall of the Eldar when kin prayed upon kin. Yet even so, chaos vs chaos is perhaps the most lethal battle that a mortal can fight, astartes or no, everything else is still quite "conventional". 

[Balthamal]

 

 

What am I hoping for from Talon of Horus? A sequel featuring Sigismund dying on the Talon of Horus. 

 

spoiler alert

 

 

Its not a spoiler if we had a multi-page discussion about it less than six months ago.

 

 

You'll understand when you read the actual book but more of a joke for those not part of that rather good thread.

 

And yes the 1 thing ADB does a superb job of with this book in regards to Abaddon is showing his growth as a character. He's not Ezekyle Abaddon, High Chieftain of the Justaerin, First Captain of the XVI Legion. He's Ezekyle Abaddon, bondless, wanderer, looking to understand the Eye and the Warp. When he finally does put in an appearance the change between who he was and he is there and then is shocking, and for the better

[A D-B]

Well looking at the whole thing from another POW, the Captains acted often as proxy commanders for the Expedition Fleets and much like his counterparts, Eidolon, Sigismund, Sevetar... each of this warlords commanded legion armies ample times so each of them was a mini "warmaster" when needs dictated it. Now consider that the Luna Wolves were effectively the "poster child" of the Imperium and even the neophytes in the labs on Terra all wished to be a Luna Wolf someday (cit. Scars). Do you think Abe would last that long as First Captain if he was just a slabheaded brute?

 

No, and that's a good example of logic and filling in the gaps. But we've also not seen much of Abaddon's worthiness as a commander - or anything overly distinctive about him - in the Heresy so far. We can speculate that it must be there, because otherwise his rank would make no sense, but I can see both sides of this particular coin when some people say the evidence is thin on the ground. A case of telling, not showing. I don't blame anyone for that, or even assign blame at all, because the series is hardly definitive, yet. There's still time, etc.

 

And in the defence of the Heresy series, it's set far above Abaddon's head. I guess it's the difference between a play about 800 different military leaders over the years, and the memoirs of someone serving at Alexander the Great's side. A character like Khayon has the luxury of exploring Abaddon's presence and behaviour in immense detail, whereas the Heresy series doesn't to the same degree. 

 

There's also the argument that he's a less interesting character in the Heresy. I'm not sure that's true (he's certainly much more ignorant and lacks a lot of the grounding that will make him the only mortal capable of being Warmaster), but he's still essentially The Space Marine. Or, supposed to be, at least. He's the highest-ranking Space Marine in the most renowned Legion. That could/should make for some great stories.

 

One of the things I really want to get to later in the series is how loyal Space Marines - especially those rare few that have survived from the Heresy - view him. He's the heretic to them. The primarchs are dead, gone, ascended, and passing into myth throughout the Imperium. The Heresy itself is practically mythology, forgotten/purged by the will of the Adeptus Terra. And here's the Space Marine commander of the one Legion that started it all. He's the exact opposite point of the compass to, say, Sigismund. In terms of Space Marines, no one has "fallen" as far as Abaddon. So the loyalists will think, at least.

 

That's one of the reasons that the idea of Abaddon facing Sigismund is so symbolic. One is rising towards what he will be, disgusted by the past and elevated above it; the another embodies the fading nobility of a past that, by holy law, must not be remembered. And, because it's the Imperium, the latter is the good guy. 

 

That rocks on toast.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

What am I hoping for from Talon of Horus? A sequel featuring Sigismund dying on the Talon of Horus. 

 

spoiler alert

 

 

Its not a spoiler if we had a multi-page discussion about it less than six months ago.

 

 

You'll understand when you read the actual book but more of a joke for those not part of that rather good thread.

 

And yes the 1 thing ADB does a superb job of with this book in regards to Abaddon is showing his growth as a character. He's not Ezekyle Abaddon, High Chieftain of the Justaerin, First Captain of the XVI Legion. He's Ezekyle Abaddon, bondless, wanderer, looking to understand the Eye and the Warp. When he finally does put in an appearance the change between who he was and he is there and then is shocking, and for the better

 

 

You could always just tell me now...

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Well looking at the whole thing from another POW, the Captains acted often as proxy commanders for the Expedition Fleets and much like his counterparts, Eidolon, Sigismund, Sevetar... each of this warlords commanded legion armies ample times so each of them was a mini "warmaster" when needs dictated it. Now consider that the Luna Wolves were effectively the "poster child" of the Imperium and even the neophytes in the labs on Terra all wished to be a Luna Wolf someday (cit. Scars). Do you think Abe would last that long as First Captain if he was just a slabheaded brute?

 

No, and that's a good example of logic and filling in the gaps. But we've also not seen much of Abaddon's worthiness as a commander - or anything overly distinctive about him - in the Heresy so far. We can speculate that it must be there, because otherwise his rank would make no sense, but I can see both sides of this particular coin when some people say the evidence is thin on the ground. A case of telling, not showing. I don't blame anyone for that, or even assign blame at all, because the series is hardly definitive, yet. There's still time, etc.

 

And in the defence of the Heresy series, it's set far above Abaddon's head. I guess it's the difference between a play about 800 different military leaders over the years, and the memoirs of someone serving at Alexander the Great's side. A character like Khayon has the luxury of exploring Abaddon's presence and behaviour in immense detail, whereas the Heresy series doesn't to the same degree. 

 

There's also the argument that he's a less interesting character in the Heresy. I'm not sure that's true (he's certainly much more ignorant and lacks a lot of the grounding that will make him the only mortal capable of being Warmaster), but he's still essentially The Space Marine. Or, supposed to be, at least. He's the highest-ranking Space Marine in the most renowned Legion. That could/should make for some great stories.

 

One of the things I really want to get to later in the series is how loyal Space Marines - especially those rare few that have survived from the Heresy - view him. He's the heretic to them. The primarchs are dead, gone, ascended, and passing into myth throughout the Imperium. The Heresy itself is practically mythology, forgotten/purged by the will of the Adeptus Terra. And here's the Space Marine commander of the one Legion that started it all. He's the exact opposite point of the compass to, say, Sigismund. In terms of Space Marines, no one has "fallen" as far as Abaddon. So the loyalists will think, at least.

 

That's one of the reasons that the idea of Abaddon facing Sigismund is so symbolic. One is rising towards what he will be, disgusted by the past and elevated above it; the another embodies the fading nobility of a past that, by holy law, must not be remembered. And, because it's the Imperium, the latter is the good guy. 

 

That rocks on toast.

 

 

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_meivrza9dl1qih9gi.gif  

[Balthamal]

PM'd ;)

[Tenebris]

Believe it or not today I have learned one thing new thanks to B&C. 

 

Yes I see the argument spinning around Abaddon but as you have said, the Heresy is of a scope and scale that is very well above and beyond even such luminaries such as the heroes and characters of the legions. 

[Karthak]

 

That's one of the reasons that the idea of Abaddon facing Sigismund is so symbolic. One is rising towards what he will be, disgusted by the past and elevated above it; the another embodies the fading nobility of a past that, by holy law, must not be remembered. And, because it's the Imperium, the latter is the good guy. 

 

That rocks on toast.

 

Or one could argue that Sigismund is the good guy in this scenario because he's the one who didn't betray and murder his own brothers, who looked up to and respected him.

 

...Huh, I just realized something.

 

The series may make me start to like Abaddon, to sympathize with him. Hell, possibly even to agree with him (I'd say that was impossible, but then ADB is Black Library's best writer, so who knows?), but I will never, ever forgive him for his part in Isstvan III. Siding with the Warmaster against the Emperor is one thing, but to murder your own family?

 

"Old gods or new, it makes no matter, no man is so accursed as the kinslayer."

[Kol Saresk]

Its 40K. The only people who will ever rationalize Sigismund as being a good guy are those who don't exist in it, aka us. As far as the Imperium is concerned, he's a relic of a time that must be forgotten and is therefore evil incarnate as he not only judges what they have done, but condemns them for it. To Chaos, he is a stepping stone.

[Conn Eremon]

Uh, forgive me if I'm the one in the wrong, but if you two are referring to what AD-B said, I'm pretty sure that this: "And, because it's the Imperium, the latter is the good guy" was in reference to Sigismund. The unmentioned former being Abaddon.

[Artein]

 

One of the things I really want to get to later in the series is how loyal Space Marines - especially those rare few that have survived from the Heresy - view him. He's the heretic to them. The primarchs are dead, gone, ascended, and passing into myth throughout the Imperium. The Heresy itself is practically mythology, forgotten/purged by the will of the Adeptus Terra. And here's the Space Marine commander of the one Legion that started it all. He's the exact opposite point of the compass to, say, Sigismund. In terms of Space Marines, no one has "fallen" as far as Abaddon. So the loyalists will think, at least.

 

 

Why not adding a flashback or two with Abaddon fighting alongside one of this Heresy survivors during the Great Crusade? You know, to draw a parallel between him then (being "the best in the best legion") and him now (the Warmaster of Chaos, Black Legion Commander, Archtraitor, the one that will one day end the Imperium etc.).

[Kol Saresk]

Uh, forgive me if I'm the one in the wrong, but if you two are referring to what AD-B said, I'm pretty sure that this: "And, because it's the Imperium, the latter is the good guy" was in reference to Sigismund. The unmentioned former being Abaddon.

Hehe, I read "latter" as "former". :P

[Conn Eremon]

Heh, okay. I had begun to wonder if my brief foray into the lands of Chaos was revealing a hitherto unknown level of madness, where the likes of Sigismund is evil and the Emperor is the god of corpses.

 

An Imperialist like me was starting to think I took a wrong turn into the wrong side of town. :p