What are you hoping for from Talon of Horus?

[Fury_of_Fenris]

You know AD-B, i really like the idea that abaddon is more than horus ever was. Ive always liked the idea of the primarchs being somewhat flawed creations, very powerful but nonetheles flawed and weak.

 

And that's the problem myself and i think others have. We see what the primarchs were and look at space marines and think they could never achieve what the primarchs were. 

 

I still look at abandon and think meh, so hopefully this trilogy or series of books will enlighten me

[Son of Carnelian]

Just read the first chapter offered for free by the Black Library. S'fine. Lots of "to be" verbs, which I realize emerge as a consequence of the first person narration. Still, it bothers me a lot. I found "Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos" much more engaging even though it had far less setup for its characters. 

 

My expectations are now that I will enjoy the novel, it will likely inspire a few models from me, but my favorite Chaos Sorcerer will remain Zaraphistion. I'm still kinda bummed that he is not considered one of these "Chosen." Seriously? Like, I get that canon remains fluid in Warhammer 40,000. I actually have no problem with that in the slightest. But he strikes me as a particularly rich and untapped character. Can someone at least PM me a spoiler of whether or not he even shows up in the book? 

[Conn Eremon]

You know AD-B, i really like the idea that abaddon is more than horus ever was. Ive always liked the idea of the primarchs being somewhat flawed creations, very powerful but nonetheles flawed and weak.

 

And that's the problem myself and i think others have. We see what the primarchs were and look at space marines and think they could never achieve what the primarchs were.

 

I still look at abandon and think meh, so hopefully this trilogy or series of books will enlighten me

Just to make sure I'm not misquoting him, here is the actual thread where what I was referring to was said (first couple pages):

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294654-how-powerful-is-the-emperor-really/

[Marshal Rohr]

"Horus was a weenie" -Aaron Dembski-Bowden 08/14

[A D-B]

My expectations are now that I will enjoy the novel, it will likely inspire a few models from me, but my favorite Chaos Sorcerer will remain Zaraphistion. I'm still kinda bummed that he is not considered one of these "Chosen." Seriously? Like, I get that canon remains fluid in Warhammer 40,000. I actually have no problem with that in the slightest. But he strikes me as a particularly rich and untapped character. Can someone at least PM me a spoiler of whether or not he even shows up in the book? 

 

There's a case to be made that Khayon is Zaraphiston. Their backgrounds certainly match up (what little there is of Zaraphiston's, at least) and

the Inquisition lists that as one of his names/titles in his interrogation, along with Ygethmor.

 

 

Khayon also mentions the unreliability of prophecy a few times, and mentions Zaraphiston by name as one of the Ezekarion's prophets. So, in classic 40K style, it's a case of the Imperium thinking it understands X, when the reality is Y, Z, and maybe A and B, too.

 

I mean, there's practically nothing written about Zaraphiston in the lore beyond a handful of paragraphs here and there (one of them, as I recall, mentions him joining the Legion very late anyway, so including him at the start would be a contradiction). But I don't know why you'd assume I'd leave him out of Abaddon's inner circle just because he wasn't mentioned in a 1,000 word short story about a few Black Legion warlords at an unspecified point in time, or in the very first novel. That's like being bummed that Aragorn doesn't show up until Bree, or that Lando isn't around until Cloud City.

[Tenebris]

Will we ever read in the series about the creation of new chaos space marines? Or will we ever get some glimpses on how the CSM renew their ranks?

[Chaeron]

A D-B - is the chapter preview in the Games Day Renegades anthology the same as the first chapter of ToH, or are there some subtle differences?

[Balthamal]

It's identical

[Excessus]

What I'm hoping for? A good read and less boredom on the commute...

[Kol Saresk]

While A D-B is still floating around(I hope), an idea I've been entertaining is that some names are actually like titles and can be passed down from one person to the next, similar to the Dread Pirate Robertson. Would that sound about right to you?

[Prot]

Will we ever read in the series about the creation of new chaos space marines? Or will we ever get some glimpses on how the CSM renew their ranks?

 

What do you mean by this? I thought it was fairly well written about at this time and I know you read a lot of this stuff as well.... I mean there's a lot of stories out there of 1) CSM in general raiding genestock going as far back as Storm of Iron, and as recent as the Crimson Slaughter codex. 2) Chapters that specifically lose their ability to create marines usually get a special visit from a certain mad scientist; Fabulous Bile (whom for a favour tomorrow, will gladly get you up and running today!) and 3) various pirates, cast off marines, potential cultsists which seek out the chapters and can join the ranks that way as well.

 

I'm not sure what would be outside the scope of that?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

On another note, I was thinking of the future of this Abaddon series, because it is so hard to wishlist without knowing how far it goes.... I mean we don't know if it just covers the months or years after Horus' death. But I also don't know how much of this touches on what is already written in the Abaddon Warlord's book, as well as the Black Legion codex. But I'd have to imagine a good amount of this will be him just trying to get everyone on the same page.

 

I find I am still very curious though as to just how cemented his relationship is with the powers of the warp. It is very curious that he is perhaps one of the only champions of Chaos not to enter some form of daemonhood. I wonder if he despises chaos and it is simply a relationship of convenience?

 

I mean when Abaddon REALLY needs something of the ruinous powers, it might be a case of beer goggles and hitting the sack with a '10' and waking up the next morning staring at a '2' and thinking... ugh, I'll never do that again.

 

I'm really curious just how his relationship unfolds with the warp.

 

Also in the future I hope to see epic collabs with other celebs like Typhus, Huron, even Kranon (one day?).

[Chaeron]

It's identical

 

Cheers, I was re-reading through Renegades before starting ToH, and wondered.

 

Interesting, I feel -considering time between writing them!

[Son of Carnelian]

 

My expectations are now that I will enjoy the novel, it will likely inspire a few models from me, but my favorite Chaos Sorcerer will remain Zaraphistion. I'm still kinda bummed that he is not considered one of these "Chosen." Seriously? Like, I get that canon remains fluid in Warhammer 40,000. I actually have no problem with that in the slightest. But he strikes me as a particularly rich and untapped character. Can someone at least PM me a spoiler of whether or not he even shows up in the book? 

 

There's a case to be made that Khayon is Zaraphiston. Their backgrounds certainly match up (what little there is of Zaraphiston's, at least) and

the Inquisition lists that as one of his names/titles in his interrogation, along with Ygethmor.

 

 

Khayon also mentions the unreliability of prophecy a few times, and mentions Zaraphiston by name as one of the Ezekarion's prophets. So, in classic 40K style, it's a case of the Imperium thinking it understands X, when the reality is Y, Z, and maybe A and B, too.

 

I mean, there's practically nothing written about Zaraphiston in the lore beyond a handful of paragraphs here and there (one of them, as I recall, mentions him joining the Legion very late anyway, so including him at the start would be a contradiction). But I don't know why you'd assume I'd leave him out of Abaddon's inner circle just because he wasn't mentioned in a 1,000 word short story about a few Black Legion warlords at an unspecified point in time, or in the very first novel. That's like being bummed that Aragorn doesn't show up until Bree, or that Lando isn't around until Cloud City.

 

 

[Loud sweating.] Oh man, now I gotta justify why I love Zaraphiston so much so that I don't look like a whiny fanboy.

 

So back in the days of late 3rd-4th edition, I did not read any of the Black Library novels. Being a punk teenager, I had no attention span for such things. But I hungrily devoured every bit of codex background I could get my hands on. Those little sidebars shaped a lot of my sense of economy of storytelling and several of them still inspire me to get some hobby work done. But one character stood out: Zaraphiston. To my knowledge, he first appears (briefly, as you say) in a sidebar of the now venerated 3.5 Chaos Codex. Just another character among many. But then, as I read through the 3rd edition Necron Codex, he appeared again! This blew my little mind that a character could appear across multiple codex books and even better, it looked like the writers behind those books were crafting a narrative about his schemes with Abaddon. So imagine my joy when I open the campaign booklet for Medusa V only to find Zaraphiston mocking Ygethmor's efforts and questioning his loyalty. Everything about him seemed so incredibly emblematic of the Chaos Space Marines as a whole: arrogant, cunning, hateful, and possessing of a power that could shape minds or eradicate cities. 

 

I try not making assumptions or bringing in too much of my prior knowledge to any work of 40k. As you have said on this forum, every author has their own viewpoint and sometimes they directly contradict. I would rather experience them all rather than close my mind because of what I deem canon. But I have a confession: I hold you to a super high standard. An unfairly high standard, I now realize.  

 

 

Mostly because I cried during Betrayer.

 

 

So I guess I have broken my cardinal rule and brought too much of my own expectations into the buildup to this novel's release. But at least this gives you a concrete example (hopefully a positive one) of what you have discussed elsewhere: because of the emphasis on your dudes in the Warhammer hobby, I have latched onto an incredibly minor figure in the background and it has shaped my perception of the wider story.

[Alpha One]

One story I remember from the 3rd Ed. CSM codex is how an aspirant is selected by managing to kill one of the CSMs. =)

 

Good stuff. ^_^

[Tenebris]

 

Will we ever read in the series about the creation of new chaos space marines? Or will we ever get some glimpses on how the CSM renew their ranks?

 

What do you mean by this? I thought it was fairly well written about at this time and I know you read a lot of this stuff as well.... I mean there's a lot of stories out there of 1) CSM in general raiding genestock going as far back as Storm of Iron, and as recent as the Crimson Slaughter codex. 2) Chapters that specifically lose their ability to create marines usually get a special visit from a certain mad scientist; Fabulous Bile (whom for a favour tomorrow, will gladly get you up and running today!) and 3) various pirates, cast off marines, potential cultsists which seek out the chapters and can join the ranks that way as well.

 

I'm not sure what would be outside the scope of that?

 

 

 

I know of a lot of techniques to create chaos space marines using Chaos witchery, warp technology and the like. But I really want to read a snippet when amidst the battle a jaded, cynical, chaos apothecary recovers the geneseed in a conventional way, with the Narthecium and then goes on to cultivate the organs to create a chaos space marine. I have this thing for Apothecaries and countless times I wished to provide a veritable way to include one in my CSM army. But so far Black Library has provided us with mostly esoteric means, which are fun and all, but not everything Chaos has to be "warp" induced somehow. I want a solid background font to explain why my warband actually has a gene lab upon a ship and why actually someone with a Narthecium is a very prized thing indeed in the Eye. I hope someday I will get this snippet of lore. Especially since it entails countless other things complementary to this. So far the only thing close is that the "Sons of Horus" went on a recruiting spree when they were stranded on their fortress world in the Eye. 

[A D-B]

 

I try not making assumptions or bringing in too much of my prior knowledge to any work of 40k. As you have said on this forum, every author has their own viewpoint and sometimes they directly contradict. I would rather experience them all rather than close my mind because of what I deem canon. But I have a confession: I hold you to a super high standard. An unfairly high standard, I now realize.  

 

 

Maybe. Maybe not. It's not an unfairly high standard, but you were definitely judging something on incorrect assumptions. I mean, your tone was pretty strident: "Can someone at least PM me to tell if he's even in the first novel?" - as if it was obvious and necessary that he would be in the first book, and it would be a grievous error to omit him. But, again, that's the thing: a slice of his lore showed him joining the Legion very late, so including him this early would be considered wrong by that angle. 

 

One of the points of the series is what the Imperium 'knows' (and the codexes show) is a very narrow slice of "truth". Like I said, the Inquisition thinks Khayon is Zaraphiston. And Ygethmor. Except some of the Inquisition doesn't think that - it's one local group that come at him with their assumptions. There'll be hundreds of cells that think it. Hundreds that don't. Hundreds that have never heard of all three names, or only know one or two of them. The Inquisition has a thousand titles for him, and ascribe a thousand crimes to his name - much like many Chaos Lords, whose names grow beyond legend and into myth. In a universe without email, the most reliable way to talk to another world is to sail there for months and/or years, journeying through Hell. And that's assuming the other world won't decide the news you bring is heretical and purge it from their records.

 

One of the things I really love (and that's very difficult for people to realise if they only see things from the Codex POV) is just how impossible it really is to archive things properly in the Imperium. This is an empire 99% of which knows nothing about the Horus Heresy - whereas in fans' minds it's absolutely huge and vital. I remember in one meeting, discussing Abaddon, and the idea being described that the Imperium itself doesn't know Abaddon as "Ezekyle Abaddon, ex-Luna Wolf." Abaddon is just this... concept. This dreaded 'Other', this mysterious figure of fear. Some worlds consider it to be a Great and Unknowable Evil - not even a person at all. Or a title handed down through the millennia. Abaddon. The Despoiler. This primal malevolence, the End of All Things.

 

So showing a little of that with Khayon is important, too. Is he Zaraphiston? Is he Ygethmor? His background aligns very well with the former (I like what little there is of Zaraphiston in the lore, too), and he directly explains a little about the latter in the course of the first novel. He's stunned, amused, and fascinated by the Imperium's ignorance, but doesn't mock them for it because he knows the Imperium enforces that ignorance out of necessity.

 

So, yes, expecting Zaraphiston in the series isn't an unfair expectation. But there will be many souls in Abaddon's inner circle over 10,000 years - joining, dying, being exiled, etc. - and they can't all be there at Day 1. 

[Son of Carnelian]

 So, yes, expecting Zaraphiston in the series isn't an unfair expectation. But there will be many souls in Abaddon's inner circle over 10,000 years - joining, dying, being exiled, etc. - and they can't all be there at Day 1. 

 

 

Gotcha! I will keep that in mind. I always forget how fluid the post of "Chosen" is. How fluid everything is with Chaos. I look forward to reading your take on the Black Legion and seeing if Big Z ever shows up.

 

(Also, part of my expectation came from me asking you at the Weekender last year if Zaraphiston featured in the novel, to which you replied yes. But I realize that was likely a truncated answer for time during a busy panel and the above posts are what you really meant. Plus novels change over time. I apologize profusely for my indignant tone though.)

 

 

Also I assume that story I gave you ended up in the recycling bin after reading your policy on fan fiction, but I take no offense whatsoever to that. I will give you something less controversial next time.

 

[A D-B]

 

So, yes, expecting Zaraphiston in the series isn't an unfair expectation. But there will be many souls in Abaddon's inner circle over 10,000 years - joining, dying, being exiled, etc. - and they can't all be there at Day 1. 

 

 

Gotcha! I will keep that in mind. I always forget how fluid the post of "Chosen" is. How fluid everything is with Chaos. I look forward to reading your take on the Black Legion and seeing if Big Z ever shows up.

 

(Also, part of my expectation came from me asking you at the Weekender last year if Zaraphiston featured in the novel, to which you replied yes. But I realize that was likely a truncated answer for time during a busy panel and the above posts are what you really meant. Plus novels change over time. I apologize profusely for my indignant tone though.)

 

 

Also I assume that story I gave you ended up in the recycling bin after reading your policy on fan fiction, but I take no offense whatsoever to that. I will give you something less controversial next time.

 

 

 

Strident, not indignant. And damn, everyone's allowed to be strident over stuff they love. Totally with you there - no harm, no foul.

 

Catch me at another event and I'll give you better answers re: Zaraphiston. Consider it a promise.

[Balthamal]

 

 

So, yes, expecting Zaraphiston in the series isn't an unfair expectation. But there will be many souls in Abaddon's inner circle over 10,000 years - joining, dying, being exiled, etc. - and they can't all be there at Day 1. 

 

 

Gotcha! I will keep that in mind. I always forget how fluid the post of "Chosen" is. How fluid everything is with Chaos. I look forward to reading your take on the Black Legion and seeing if Big Z ever shows up.

 

(Also, part of my expectation came from me asking you at the Weekender last year if Zaraphiston featured in the novel, to which you replied yes. But I realize that was likely a truncated answer for time during a busy panel and the above posts are what you really meant. Plus novels change over time. I apologize profusely for my indignant tone though.)

 

 

Also I assume that story I gave you ended up in the recycling bin after reading your policy on fan fiction, but I take no offense whatsoever to that. I will give you something less controversial next time.

 

 

 

Strident, not indignant. And damn, everyone's allowed to be strident over stuff they love. Totally with you there - no harm, no foul.

 

Catch me at another event and I'll give you better answers re: Zaraphiston. Consider it a promise.

 

 

Does that apply for this year's weekender too? When you're not buried in the queues at the signings obviously

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

Will we ever read in the series about the creation of new chaos space marines? Or will we ever get some glimpses on how the CSM renew their ranks?

What do you mean by this? I thought it was fairly well written about at this time and I know you read a lot of this stuff as well.... I mean there's a lot of stories out there of 1) CSM in general raiding genestock going as far back as Storm of Iron, and as recent as the Crimson Slaughter codex. 2) Chapters that specifically lose their ability to create marines usually get a special visit from a certain mad scientist; Fabulous Bile (whom for a favour tomorrow, will gladly get you up and running today!) and 3) various pirates, cast off marines, potential cultsists which seek out the chapters and can join the ranks that way as well.

 

I'm not sure what would be outside the scope of that?

 

I know of a lot of techniques to create chaos space marines using Chaos witchery, warp technology and the like. But I really want to read a snippet when amidst the battle a jaded, cynical, chaos apothecary recovers the geneseed in a conventional way, with the Narthecium and then goes on to cultivate the organs to create a chaos space marine. I have this thing for Apothecaries and countless times I wished to provide a veritable way to include one in my CSM army. But so far Black Library has provided us with mostly esoteric means, which are fun and all, but not everything Chaos has to be "warp" induced somehow. I want a solid background font to explain why my warband actually has a gene lab upon a ship and why actually someone with a Narthecium is a very prized thing indeed in the Eye. I hope someday I will get this snippet of lore. Especially since it entails countless other things complementary to this. So far the only thing close is that the "Sons of Horus" went on a recruiting spree when they were stranded on their fortress world in the Eye.

Blood Reaver by A D-B.

[Kol Saresk]

I will say this, I was not expecting an expose on the nature of the warp. So while I haven't read it yet, picture me as a school boy who found himself alone with all the cheerleaders. That's the grin I have on my face.

[Vesper]

I liked the Talon of Horus.

It felt like a balanced book with actually few holes / weaknesses. The characters are great, and I'm glad we're set to stay with them for a few millenia.

The three main dudes really are carrying the book efficiently. Khayon is a really good character, and the narrative choices are a great occasion to learn more about magic stuff. It is refreshing to have such a narrator.

Lheor is, as I expected, awesome. I laughed quite a bit when he first met Abaddon. He's quite a loveable character and I really enjoy the hidden depth of his desire for brotherhood. I think it resonates perticulary well with him.

Telemachon is sweet and all, yet he's not as present as Lheor, and I feel we've barely even scratched who he is. I enjoyed seeing him into his different states, though. And he's also quite badass.

Oh, and Abaddon is awesome. Yet I want more. Much much more. And I loved Falkus to bits.

 

There are few things I wasn't fond of, I'll admit, but they boil down to author's choices.

First off, the retcon :

Since forever, Abaddon is supposed to arrive to Lupercalios (I love that name. I mean, really) / Maeleum after the EC robbed Horus' corpse to rally them before going on to destroy the clones. I wasn't fond of doing things the other way around, and that brought me to the let down I voice in the spoiler tags below.

 

 

The destruction of the Canticle City felt like a missed opportunity to me. Wasn't sold on what happened there.

 

 

I understand it is cool to end the book with an epic fight. And it may not have been possible to squeeze the rallying of the Sons of Horus under Abaddon's banner before that. And in a way, it is also cool to start a book with Abaddon rallying the Sons.

But yeah. Wasn't fond of the choice of retconing that part. Especially because I felt it led to the anticlimatic and unsatisfying turn of events I put between spoiler tags. To be honest, I like the idea that the Sons of Horus' last battle was the one against their cloned father under Abaddon. I felt it was incredibely symbolic.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really liked the book. And I can't wait for Black Legion, because it will hopefully answer many of my questions about the dudes I play and love since a decade. Why do they wear the Eye of Horus ? How do they operate ? What is their place in the Eye and in the Galaxy ?...

 

I'd like to add that I'm glad I bought the FE, because Wonderworker was really good. I already bought Chosen of Chaos, which I also liked. About Extinction, even though I get what was the point, didn't had me thrilled as I don't really see what purpose it serves appart from stating the obvious. Also, still in Extinction, it is stated that Abaddon gave the Talon to the SoH when any reader of Talon of Horus knows it isn't on the new homeworld of the SoH. Was it made on purpose ?

And what happened to the captain of the Fleshmarket ? Is he held captive ? Did he fled during you know what ?

 

Good stuff, AD-B. Thank you for the ride. I'm fully ready for Black Legion as soon as you are.

[Xenith]

But I really want to read a snippet when amidst the battle a jaded, cynical, chaos apothecary recovers the geneseed in a conventional way, with the Narthecium and then goes on to cultivate the organs to create a chaos space marine.

Angel Exterminatus:

 

 

The HONourable SOUlaku gets killed and his organs harvested in the usual way by the Emperor's Children. It's essentially battle, even if the Honourable didn't know he was fighting.

 

 

It's a big universe. If your apothecaries haven't all been killed, then they will still harvest gene seed.

 

Maybe your warbands progenoids are too warp tainted to be stable? Does your warband prey on marines to harvest their more pure organs to create more warriors? Does your legion apothecary freely pass on his knowledge, or does he jealously guard it, knowing that it makes him an irreplacable asset to the warband leader?

 

There are stories all the time of CSM removing the gene seed of astartes. They usually make an offering of some of it, but the rest may be kept.

[Lucien Eilam]

Also, still in Extinction, it is stated that Abaddon gave the Talon to the SoH when any reader of Talon of Horus knows it isn't on the new homeworld of the SoH. Was it made on purpose ?

He left it before he began his lone pilgrimage. Extinction is set during his travels. Talon of Horus is set when he's done traveling and ready to begin the Long War. There's plenty of time between the two stories for him to decide to retrieve it.

[Vesper]

That's for sure.

But isn't Abaddon supposed to be in Pilgrimage ? He would've come to Lupercalios, took it and that's it ?