What's the best load-out for terminators!?

[Captain Coolpants]

Basically the same as my purifier post. Just for terminators :-P

 

I used to run them with swords and hammers with a helberd on the justicar and 2 psycannons; then combat squaded them.

 

 

But now swords have no real use, other than too keep then cheap.

 

So the general consensus on here is to give them falchions!

 

But what about hammers? As we no longer get a free swap out, are these still a must for them? And how many would you guys have per 10 man squad?

 

And are psylencers worth it for them? Or just keep them with psycannons?

 

Thanks guys

[Bionicman]

I am not sold on psilencers for terminators. As even orkboyz and cultists get saces against them they are not suitable for 5+ / 6+ armour.

It is 6 w/o AP vs 4 Shots with higher strength and chance of rending. As psicannons are next to useless und PAGK now i would always take them for TAGK.

I would leave psilencers for NDKs or maybe purgator squads.

 

Not sure about NFW as I mostly played MSU last ed and rarely Terminators.

[Captain Coolpants]

The psylencer is a very situational gun I must say. And you must GREATLY rely on a failed armour save (which is usually a 2/3+ on multi wound models, except for normal ork nobs). But if that save is failed, then that gun would have paid for itself many times over! Especially if you managed to kill a MC. I really want to use it but not sure if I should bother haha.

 

 

I also just played power armour last codex. But seems as if terminators will be My new troops :-/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't be taking the infantry psilencer over the psycannon. We are in desperate need of psycannon on solid platforms. My thinking now is;

 

Strikes; No melee upgrades, incinerator, keep them cheap and combat squads

Purifiers; Melee upgrades maybe, incinerator isn't really needed, transportation (Allied pod or Raven) is a must

Interceptors; Incinerator is golden, again like Purifiers melee upgrades are a maybe due to their cost

Terminators; Melee upgrades very worthwhile, psycannon as a priority

DK; Given we have plenty of incinerator and storm bolter, I'd be taking the heavy psycannon and heavy psilencer

[Captain Coolpants]

I wouldn't be taking the infantry psilencer over the psycannon. We are in desperate need of psycannon on solid platforms. My thinking now is;

 

Strikes; No melee upgrades, incinerator, keep them cheap and combat squads

Purifiers; Melee upgrades maybe, incinerator isn't really needed, transportation (Allied pod or Raven) is a must

Interceptors; Incinerator is golden, again like Purifiers melee upgrades are a maybe due to their cost

Terminators; Melee upgrades very worthwhile, psycannon as a priority

DK; Given we have plenty of incinerator and storm bolter, I'd be taking the heavy psycannon and heavy psilencer

Now when you say mêlée upgrades, what do you have in mind?

 

And I'm planning on running my D-knights exactly the same haha. Just with a hammer. Because 5pts for concussive and force is well worth it

[Landrick]

I wouldn't be taking the infantry psilencer over the psycannon. We are in desperate need of psycannon on solid platforms. My thinking now is;

 

Strikes; No melee upgrades, incinerator, keep them cheap and combat squads

Purifiers; Melee upgrades maybe, incinerator isn't really needed, transportation (Allied pod or Raven) is a must

Interceptors; Incinerator is golden, again like Purifiers melee upgrades are a maybe due to their cost

Terminators; Melee upgrades very worthwhile, psycannon as a priority

DK; Given we have plenty of incinerator and storm bolter, I'd be taking the heavy psycannon and heavy psilencer

This is where my thoughts lie as well

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Now when you say mêlée upgrades, what do you have in mind? 

 

Falchions on most, 1-2 hammers depending on their role. Terminators definitely want two hammers, they'll inevitably have to fight other 2+ save or high Toughness units (or crack open a vehicle). Purifiers, probably just the one as insurance, leave the rest with swords. Strikes are pretty bad now so keep them cheap. Interceptors pay a huge premium for their mobility, so probably just a hammer on the Justicar and the rest with swords. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

mêlée

 

/salute

 

I'm too lazy to write melee properly. ;)

[Captain Coolpants]

Thanks guys, very much appreciate all the responses! So always give a hammer or 2 and always worth the falchions :-P

 

And Gentlemanloser. I have to admit that my phone auto used the correct characters XD.

[minionboy]

I've actually been strongly torn between the different ranged weapons on the Terminators.  I know there is a seemingly common acceptance of Psycannon or bust, but I'm really not sure it's that clear cut this edition.  The common reason given to take the Psycannon is for anti-tank, but now without Psybolt ammo, that means that even if you shoot an AV11 vehicle, you're going to waste the guns of 80% of your terminator unit, and that doesn't sit well with me in an army where every model counts.

 

Instead, the Psilencer and Incinerator might be worth looking at.  The Psilencer increases the ranged damage output of 5 terminators by a flat 40%, and still has the option, in a pinch, to go for a Force shot against a MC.  The math shows that with Force activated, the 6 shots from the Psilencer has about a 20% chance to kill a T6 3+ MC.  While that's nothing close go a guarantee, i feel that the chance to outright kill in many circumstances can be more important than the chance to do a wound or two from a Psycannon.

 

With the Nemesis Strike Force, the Incinerator is also a tempting weapon.  It's dirt cheap, half the cost of the Psycannon, and with the ability to deep strike, run, then shoot, you might even get a shot off with it right from the get go.  If you get in close, this weapon is a very cost effective weapon.

 

Just my thoughts... regarding Melee weapons I like 2 Falchions, 1 Halberd and 2 Hammers, because it comes to an even 30 points, haha.

 

 

Oh, and Paladins are a totally different issue, I'd absolutely give a squad of 5 a pair of Psycannons, when you have 2 and are also losing a storm bolter to the Apothecary, then you're really not losing a lot of firepower to shoot those Psycannons, plus with 2 firing you have a solid chance of wrecking a transport so you can charge the squishy bits inside.

[Captain Coolpants]

I've actually been strongly torn between the different ranged weapons on the Terminators. I know there is a seemingly common acceptance of Psycannon or bust, but I'm really not sure it's that clear cut this edition. The common reason given to take the Psycannon is for anti-tank, but now without Psybolt ammo, that means that even if you shoot an AV11 vehicle, you're going to waste the guns of 80% of your terminator unit, and that doesn't sit well with me in an army where every model counts.

 

Instead, the Psilencer and Incinerator might be worth looking at. The Psilencer increases the ranged damage output of 5 terminators by a flat 40%, and still has the option, in a pinch, to go for a Force shot against a MC. The math shows that with Force activated, the 6 shots from the Psilencer has about a 20% chance to kill a T6 3+ MC. While that's nothing close go a guarantee, i feel that the chance to outright kill in many circumstances can be more important than the chance to do a wound or two from a Psycannon.

 

Extreeeeemely good point! Because a psylencer is essentially 3 storm bolters with force.

 

BUT if we don't have psycannons, then what can we use? Because even though you're essentially wasting the rest of the squads guns shooting at a tank, it's kinda our only way to shoot at the tank.

 

It's either take nothing for anti tank and let them pie plate you, or waste the squads storm bolters :-/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've actually been strongly torn between the different ranged weapons on the Terminators.  I know there is a seemingly common acceptance of Psycannon or bust, but I'm really not sure it's that clear cut this edition.  The common reason given to take the Psycannon is for anti-tank, but now without Psybolt ammo, that means that even if you shoot an AV11 vehicle, you're going to waste the guns of 80% of your terminator unit, and that doesn't sit well with me in an army where every model counts.

 

So? Same problem all Marine units have, they're generalists. The psycannon is there so when you land and the only target you have is a transport or other light AV target, you don't just go 'oh well' and do nothing for a turn. Also, psycannons scare infantry and even elite 2+ save units, due to high Strength and Rending. Its a true generalist weapon, which given our Termies do the heavy lifting in our codex (they score, they shoot and they fight in melee, whilst being tough to kill), is exactly what you want; flexibility. 

Instead, the Psilencer and Incinerator might be worth looking at.  The Psilencer increases the ranged damage output of 5 terminators by a flat 40%, and still has the option, in a pinch, to go for a Force shot against a MC.  The math shows that with Force activated, the 6 shots from the Psilencer has about a 20% chance to kill a T6 3+ MC.  While that's nothing close go a guarantee, i feel that the chance to outright kill in many circumstances can be more important than the chance to do a wound or two from a Psycannon.

 

20% is atrocious. I'd rather take the psycannon and be confident it'll do something, rather than watching bolter rounds plink off the enemy and do nothing (which is my usual experience with storm bolters, it only kills chaff usually, does nothing to MC's). The psycannon ripping 1-2 wounds off could be crucial when you follow it up with a charge, as thats less wounds you have to deal to kill it. The gatling psilencer on the DK (going by your math) having a 40% chance isn't stellar either, but it's at least getting warmer to the coin-flip ('Prescience' would probably drag it into 'likely' territory). Plus, on the DK, he can still take the heavy psycannon as his backup gun. 

 

That's the issue at hand. All of our squads (barring Purifiers) generally get just one special weapon option. Incinerators are the go to option for our PA units now, as they've nerfed psycannon way too hard with Salvo. Even on TDA, the infantry psilencer is just too weak to matter. The psycannon is the logical choice for TDA, as Relentless lets you use it at full capacity, and it offers a type of shooting that you can't otherwise get (anti-transport). 

With the Nemesis Strike Force, the Incinerator is also a tempting weapon.  It's dirt cheap, half the cost of the Psycannon, and with the ability to deep strike, run, then shoot, you might even get a shot off with it right from the get go.  If you get in close, this weapon is a very cost effective weapon.

 

Yeah I agree, which is why you take it on PA, where its Assault nature suits them (whereas Salvo and Heavy on the other two options mean they're basically unusable). On Terminators though, incinerators are kinda weaksauce, especially when you have psycannon on offer. 

Oh, and Paladins are a totally different issue, I'd absolutely give a squad of 5 a pair of Psycannons, when you have 2 and are also losing a storm bolter to the Apothecary, then you're really not losing a lot of firepower to shoot those Psycannons, plus with 2 firing you have a solid chance of wrecking a transport so you can charge the squishy bits inside.

 

Paladins cost too much and get vaped too easily. If you are inclined to field them, then yes, double psycannon all the way. 

BUT if we don't have psycannons, then what can we use? Because even though you're essentially wasting the rest of the squads guns shooting at a tank, it's kinda our only way to shoot at the tank. 

 

It's either take nothing for anti tank and let them pie plate you, or waste the squads storm bolters :-/ 

 

It's not really a waste. If your opponent is smart he'll be hiding his infantry from your firepower as much as he can, to reduce the impact of your alpha strike. In that situation (for example, against a mech list), the psycannon lets you do something rather than flat nothing to the enemy. And when you have cracked them open, the psycannon works equally well mowing down enemy infantry. 

[minionboy]

 

lots of stuff

 

Too much stuff, don't want to make a massive all of reply, so I'll just reply, paragraph by paragraph...

 

The difference between a Tactical Marine squad firing one weapon at a target vs a Grey Knight Terminator Squad is that usually it's 1 weapon out of a 80 point combat squad, not a 200 point Terminator Squad.  Those Tactical marines also have a lot more marines to supplement their firepower where in GK, you really need to get the most out of everything in your army at all times.

 

The odds of killing a MC with a Psilencer are greater than the odds of killing an AV12 vehicle in double-tap range of a melta (about 18%, not even counting a cover save), so while 20% might sound atrocious, it's actually not bad.  Like I said in my example, there are many more times that it's important that the monster is dead, and wounded can often be fairly insignificant, such as a Bloodthirster who you'd rather have dead than charging into your squad with even 1 wound.

 

Regarding Incinerators on PAGK, I totally agree, but the nice thing about having them on terminators is that PAGK generally don't want to be that close, while Terminators generally do.

 

Really, it comes down to GK being an elite army, so you really need to focus on the strengths of each unit, while it is tempting to make them all generalists, I'm really doubting that Terminators can be the generalists they were before with the lack of psybolts.

[RedMoon]

im really thinking of keeping mine super cheap. 2 psy cannons and 2 hammers in the unit and thats it. lets me have 30 terminators with 2 libbys and 2 dreadknights with and allied inquisitor and bodyguard hiding behind an agis with coms relay lol

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The difference between a Tactical Marine squad firing one weapon at a target vs a Grey Knight Terminator Squad is that usually it's 1 weapon out of a 80 point combat squad, not a 200 point Terminator Squad.  Those Tactical marines also have a lot more marines to supplement their firepower where in GK, you really need to get the most out of everything in your army at all times.

 

I agree, but storm bolters can sometimes have no good targets. That's where the psycannon comes in. It deals with things your base firepower can't, in the same way that a Tac squads plasma gun deals with 2+ save infantry and high Toughness when the bolters fail. That's like the essence of special/heavy weapons, they're to give the unit the ability to kill more things than their basic firepower. 

The odds of killing a MC with a Psilencer are greater than the odds of killing an AV12 vehicle in double-tap range of a melta (about 18%, not even counting a cover save), so while 20% might sound atrocious, it's actually not bad.  Like I said in my example, there are many more times that it's important that the monster is dead, and wounded can often be fairly insignificant, such as a Bloodthirster who you'd rather have dead than charging into your squad with even 1 wound.

 

I'd expect a single meltagun to fail, because its one shot. But you're talking about a weapon with 6 shots, that has a 1/5 of actually doing something. Yes, it would be hilarious to one-shot an expensive enemy MC with the psilencer. But you cannot even vaguely rely on that going off. You're giving up any way to deal with AV11+, 2+ saves, high Toughness etc...for the low chance of maybe insta-gibbing something. 

 

Regarding Incinerators on PAGK, I totally agree, but the nice thing about having them on terminators is that PAGK generally don't want to be that close, while Terminators generally do.

 

 

You can't play the 'sit back and shoot' game though, you don't have the staying power. And given PAGK want to be in the move (ie getting into melee, where their real strength lies), the incinerator suits that. Terminators don't really need a horde clearance weapon, with falchions they'll rip apart even 20-man units. PAGK meanwhile do suffer from less attacks and a real danger of being bogged down in combat with cheaper chaff. The incinerator lets you even things up prior to a charge (the other two weapons don't even let you charge after shooting them, which is at complete odds with their storm bolters and melee stats). 

Really, it comes down to GK being an elite army, so you really need to focus on the strengths of each unit, while it is tempting to make them all generalists, I'm really doubting that Terminators can be the generalists they were before with the lack of psybolts.

 

Psy-bolts were good, but I don't think their removal from our infantry is as bad as its removal from our vehicles. You still have storm bolters and psycannon, which will kill infantry just fine, and the psycannon lets you threaten multiple targets. 

 

The thing is, we don't have a lot of units. We cannot simply specialise every unit into anti-infantry, and then fight mech lists or MC spam. I'd take psycannons on every unit if I could, but Salvo put paid to that. I'm fine with Strikes, Purifiers or Interceptors being anti-infantry, because Salvo doesn't play nice with melee-orientated Marines that want to get into enemy lines quickly (and are thus moving all the time). On TDA though, the psycannon shines and you're really missing out not taking it. The only other platform that makes good use of the psycannon is the Dreadknight, and he's not a Troops choice. 

im really thinking of keeping mine super cheap. 2 psy cannons and 2 hammers in the unit and thats it. lets me have 30 terminators with 2 libbys and 2 dreadknights with and allied inquisitor and bodyguard hiding behind an agis with coms relay lol

 

Don't take full squads, combat squad. They're very hard to manouvre at 10-man, and when Deepstriking you can minimise losses by overloading their Interceptor with multiple targets. 

[Valerian]

Slightly off-topic, but based on that last response, RD, is there any reason not to just take 5-Marine squads of Strikes and Interceptors, too?  It seems to me that in the 5e dex, folks would consolidate their PAGK squads to maximize efficiency of the 20 point Psybolt upgrade, and then would sometimes Combat Squad afterward.  But with that gone, is there really any reason why I shouldn't just spam 5-Marine units of PAGK and GKT across the board?  The only unit that I'm thinking of buying as 10 is my Purifier unit, so they can share a ride; they'd still Combat Squad, to maximize WC and Cleansing Flame casts, but I'd at least buy them as a single large unit.

 

Thoughts?

[AlanofAngels]

I think the issue, then, would be the Justicar tax on several of the units. I honestly could see a couple 5 man strike squads (or 10 man, combat squaded) with incinerators being a decent enough anti-infantry unit. Still, purifiers would be better...

[Landrick]

Slightly off-topic, but based on that last response, RD, is there any reason not to just take 5-Marine squads of Strikes and Interceptors, too?  It seems to me that in the 5e dex, folks would consolidate their PAGK squads to maximize efficiency of the 20 point Psybolt upgrade, and then would sometimes Combat Squad afterward.  But with that gone, is there really any reason why I shouldn't just spam 5-Marine units of PAGK and GKT across the board?  The only unit that I'm thinking of buying as 10 is my Purifier unit, so they can share a ride; they'd still Combat Squad, to maximize WC and Cleansing Flame casts, but I'd at least buy them as a single large unit.

 

Thoughts?

It works if you don't mind clogging your force org slots. For instance, just running 1 NSF detachment, you can only run 1 interceptor squad if you also want a raven. Also, this plan means you repeatedly pay the justicar tax... But you also get an extra attack and Ld point

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Slightly off-topic, but based on that last response, RD, is there any reason not to just take 5-Marine squads of Strikes and Interceptors, too?  It seems to me that in the 5e dex, folks would consolidate their PAGK squads to maximize efficiency of the 20 point Psybolt upgrade, and then would sometimes Combat Squad afterward.  But with that gone, is there really any reason why I shouldn't just spam 5-Marine units of PAGK and GKT across the board?  The only unit that I'm thinking of buying as 10 is my Purifier unit, so they can share a ride; they'd still Combat Squad, to maximize WC and Cleansing Flame casts, but I'd at least buy them as a single large unit.

 

If you buy more than one combat squad of Strikes, I'd go a full unit and combat squad, just to avoid the Justicar tax (which does add up). Same for Interceptors, although if you want an extra hammer and teleport homer, there is an argument for taking a second actual squad. 

 

But yeah, Purifiers suffer no drawback from being spammed at 5-man, neither do Terminators. If you are going Raven, then yes buy the full 10-man, combat squad and abuse the transport rules ;) . Nothing like watching your opponents face when you tell him you're double casting 'Cleansing Flame' at point blank range from his gunline. 4D6 heavy flamer hits on every unit within 9" of the Purifiers you choose (one model from each squad) is insane, you can even have good odds of dropping an FMC out of the sky.