Is the grand master upgrade really worth it?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

GKGM upgrade

 

35 points for PML+1, A+1.

 

Nemesis Falchions

 

4 points for A+1.

 

Not trolling.  If you're not worried about the PML upgrade, you can save 31 points by taking Falchions and calling your BC a GM.

 

Sure, for other reasons this might not be wanted, as you might want the Hammer of Stave.

 

But if all you were doing is taking the GM upgrade (for the increase to A), and leaving your dude with a Sword, then consider not taking the GM upgrade, but taking Falchions instead.

 

And save yourself 31 points.

 

Nah, I'd rather the extra WC for 31 points. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Take a Libby then. ;)

[BladeGaurd]

I'd kinda want him as an all rounder. Hence the hammer and psycannon. And probably rolling on divination for re-rolls, which would be super handy for his gun and in a challenge (and for his squad!)

 

But I'm actually contemplating whether or not 2 librarians (either both level 3 or one level 2 and 3) would be better :-P

Just for the shear psychic buffing they can do. The squad casts hammerhand, then the librarian casts force. That leaves the librarian with an extra 2 powers each left! Depending on what table you rolled on, that's a shed load of unit buffing/psychic offence going on

 

I tend to find all round characters either to neither well or are more expensive then I want to pay, or both.  It also comes down to transport options, shooters are better on foot or deep striking normally mid distance away. CC is great in an assault transport or recklessly close deep strikes, had 7 terminators with a grand master come down with in 2 inches of a enemy hq (the look on the enemy's face was priceless).  psyker support depends on the other equipment.

I would defiantly take 1 librarian, I think there are better options then a 2nd librarian.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Take a Libby then.

I want my Warlord to actually do something in melee GL. Librarians typically do jack, whereas Grandmasters with either Soul Glaive or hammer (more likely the latter, as it frees you up to take the Cuirass as your relic) do amazing work in melee.

[Gentlemanloser]

For a Melee unit, what do you want the second WC for?  Is it really going to make a difference?

 

If we could roll on Biomancy, sure.  But the points would be better spent on the PML3 upgrade for a Libby.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

For a Melee unit, what do you want the second WC for?  Is it really going to make a difference?

 

Yeah, because it means I can roll another Telepathy/Divination power. Those powers can and do swing engagements, not to mention entire games. 

 

If we could roll on Biomancy, sure.  But the points would be better spent on the PML3 upgrade for a Libby.

 

 

Why not both? Libby is still dirt cheap with Mastery 3, you could run both HQ's in a 2k list (ie two Nemesis Strikeforces stapled together). 

[Gentlemanloser]

If I had all the points in the world, I'd take every upgrade. ;)

[Brovius]

Well you only have one weapon to swap, so you can only get one item in exchange.

Regards to them being worth it, nah. (Seemingly) No-one ever bothered with the ML2 in the last book and he only had 3 attacks then anyway, so aside from the loss of Grand Strategy he's the same bloke with a different name now. If you reeeaaally want the extra attack, give Paladins the BroBanner and let them all benefit for less.

As it's worded, it is posssible to swap your sword for a pair of Falchions. Now you have 2 close combat weapons, so RAW states that you can swap one to a Hammer. Why else would GW specify that the Halberd is a two-handed weapon?* ;)

 

*I know exactly why they did this, because Relics don't swap out anything you could technically have a Halberd and the Soul Glaive for +1A. Still, if the shoe fits!

[Valerian]

 

Well you only have one weapon to swap, so you can only get one item in exchange.

Regards to them being worth it, nah. (Seemingly) No-one ever bothered with the ML2 in the last book and he only had 3 attacks then anyway, so aside from the loss of Grand Strategy he's the same bloke with a different name now. If you reeeaaally want the extra attack, give Paladins the BroBanner and let them all benefit for less.

As it's worded, it is posssible to swap your sword for a pair of Falchions. Now you have 2 close combat weapons, so RAW states that you can swap one to a Hammer.

 

Nothing says you can go back to the list and swap more than one time, even if you did have multiple melee weapons to swap in the first place. 

[Gentlemanloser]

If that was the case, we wouldn't need to be told that someone can only take one of something (like a Relic).

 

There's nothing to restrict multiple purchases, and I'm sure you can for example take Melta Bombs *and* a Teleport Homer.

 

If the unit entry said that you could replace *one* melee weapon, this would be a non issue.  But as far as I remember, it doesn't.

[Valerian]

 

If the unit entry said that you could replace *one* melee weapon, this would be a non issue.  But as far as I remember, it doesn't.

 

It says you can replace 'a' melee weapon.  And, all of the units that have access to that list only have a/one melee weapon to trade in the first place.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's the wording on Special Issue wargear?  Can a unit buy a Specila Issue, or from the Special Issue?

[Raktra]

The melee weapon section says "one of the following". The special issue gear is "one of each of the following".

[minionboy]

I've been debating a GM with Psycannon and Soul Glaive, probably with a couple rolls on div or telepathy. With a unit of paladins that's going to be 12 psycannon shots the turn they arrive, plus more reliably casting force. The downside is wondering if all that utility is worth 90 points more than a Libby, or 20 short of Draigo.

[Quozzo]

in both cases, the option in the codex says that a model may take items from the list.

[Everon]

I am curious if a possible way to make a GM viable (although it would have to be a larger game) os a Draigowing of sorts. 5 pallys with 1 apothecary 2 pyscannons, 1 hammer 4 falchions, bro cap stern for the gurantee to have sanctuary for the 4++ pallys, Draigo for mobility plus a 2++ and str 9 with HH, and a GM with 1 power from telepathy to turn Into pyschic shriek ala brb and 1 power from field of choice ,a pyscannon, and soulglaive since the glaive says reroll all hits, wounds, and aps and not just in cc. Thats a lot of shooties and melees bound to cause some good damage output. Thoughts?

[TheDarkOne]

Brother Captain

Hammer

Curiass

Psycannon

195

 

Brother Captain

Falchions

Curiass

Meltabombs

Psycannon

194

 

Brother Captian 

Glaive

Psilencer

Meltabombs

185

 

Brother Captain

Domina Liber Daemonica

Warding Stave

Psycannon

Meltabombs

205

 

Grandmaster adds +1 attack, and +1 mastery level.

 

In every instance save the Domina build, he brings a psycannon and some other benefits and is cheaper than Draigo. The Domina one is very close to Draigo's cost.

 

So in what circumstances would each iteration be useful?

 

The brother captain brings most probably divination, a psycannon and some resilient cc punch to the unit. I cna see the falchions being popular for extra I5 WS5 attacks, and the hammer is really appealing as an eternal warrior force weapon. you sacrifice his I5 though. 

 

Since he'll usually be S6 with hammerhand, I don't think a standard halberd is that appealing. though, I5 S7 aint nothing to scoff at.

 

If he's accompanied by another hero (whihc i think is amlost mandatory), then that hero could be a liber daemonica librarian, for a whole bunch of support spells. in a squad of terminators. 

 

The grandmaster brings somehting different, assuming you're taking a librarian with him, being ML2, taking one form divination and one form telepathy, or whatever is necessary after your libby rolls 2 sanctic, 1 div 1 tele.

 

I can see the value of both, and i don't really think the grandmaster's +1 attack is worth 10 points on top of a mastery level, based on the cost of falchions. but if you're going to give him a hammer and curiass, i think its the best build, making use of the +1 attack, being eternal warrior and ML2, that extra warp charge is really important in a charge hungry army like grey knights, now that we don't have razorback batteries to draw on.

 

When I look at the cost of a grandmaster, I can't help but compare his value to 2 Terminator armor inquisitors with hammers and psycannons ML1, bringing servo skulls.

 

Yes, their BS is lower, but they'll probably have prescience for them and the unit. They are stubborn 10 instead of fearless, and their T3 not eternal warrior, but for fire and psychic support, they really can't be beat.

[minionboy]

Brother Captain

Hammer

Curiass

Psycannon

195

 

Brother Captain

Falchions

Curiass

Meltabombs

Psycannon

194

 

Brother Captian

Glaive

Psilencer

Meltabombs

185

 

Brother Captain

Domina Liber Daemonica

Warding Stave

Psycannon

Meltabombs

205

 

Grandmaster adds +1 attack, and +1 mastery level.

 

In every instance save the Domina build, he brings a psycannon and some other benefits and is cheaper than Draigo. The Domina one is very close to Draigo's cost.

 

So in what circumstances would each iteration be useful?

 

The brother captain brings most probably divination, a psycannon and some resilient cc punch to the unit. I cna see the falchions being popular for extra I5 WS5 attacks, and the hammer is really appealing as an eternal warrior force weapon. you sacrifice his I5 though.

 

Since he'll usually be S6 with hammerhand, I don't think a standard halberd is that appealing. though, I5 S7 aint nothing to scoff at.

 

If he's accompanied by another hero (whihc i think is amlost mandatory), then that hero could be a liber daemonica librarian, for a whole bunch of support spells. in a squad of terminators.

 

The grandmaster brings somehting different, assuming you're taking a librarian with him, being ML2, taking one form divination and one form telepathy, or whatever is necessary after your libby rolls 2 sanctic, 1 div 1 tele.

 

I can see the value of both, and i don't really think the grandmaster's +1 attack is worth 10 points on top of a mastery level, based on the cost of falchions. but if you're going to give him a hammer and curiass, i think its the best build, making use of the +1 attack, being eternal warrior and ML2, that extra warp charge is really important in a charge hungry army like grey knights, now that we don't have razorback batteries to draw on.

 

When I look at the cost of a grandmaster, I can't help but compare his value to 2 Terminator armor inquisitors with hammers and psycannons ML1, bringing servo skulls.

 

Yes, their BS is lower, but they'll probably have prescience for them and the unit. They are stubborn 10 instead of fearless, and their T3 not eternal warrior, but for fire and psychic support, they really can't be beat.

Actually I'm thinking the GM with Glaive and Psilencer might be fun, if not good. Put him in a squad of Paladins with 2 more psilencers and put all of his (and a Libby, Loth or Tiggy) rolls into Divination for Misfortune. Potentially 18 rending, instant death shots? Sign me up! The math on 12 Psycannon shots is depressing, so this seems like a more exciting way to spend the points.

[Purifying Tempest]

Take a Libby then.

I want my Warlord to actually do something in melee GL. Librarians typically do jack, whereas Grandmasters with either Soul Glaive or hammer (more likely the latter, as it frees you up to take the Cuirass as your relic) do amazing work in melee.

A melee warlord? Clearly you speak of a dreadknight.

[Purifying Tempest]

I kid, I kid.

 

For those Brother Captains... you're getting eerily close to Draigo levels. And if you're taking a librarian support caster, too... may as well go for the big man himself.

[Adeptus]

I kid, I kid.

 

For those Brother Captains... you're getting eerily close to Draigo levels. And if you're taking a librarian support caster, too... may as well go for the big man himself.

He's a Lord of War, you still need an HQ choice. If you gotta take an HQ choice, might as well make him a good one, since we don't have any cheap ones.

[Purifying Tempest]

And then there was Stern.

 

I did mention Draigo if you were taking a support librarian already.

 

Usually the advantage of a "build a HQ" HQs is that they're usually significantly cheaper than the named ones. That is not the case here. That's so you can bloat them with options for point sinks.

 

Stern is about the same cost as a Grand Master and I think is pretty equal stat for stat.

 

All of them pretty much suffer from 1-hit-quitting. A power fist makes them all pause a moment.

 

A librarian does, too, without a doubt, but he's looking 60 points cheaper on average even with ML3. And at least Stern has a garunteed Sanctuary.

[Brom MKIV]

Greetings! I'm back and returning to GKs again for the first time in 4 editions. Just wanted to chime in on the GM debate here.

 

While the GM may not be suited for every list I feel he is completely worth the investment over a BC if considering a cc scratch built IC. Reason is ML 2 is a whole other level, simply because of the increased chance of rolling precognition, forewarning and perfect timing. Yes a libby can do forewarning just as well, but precog is the GM's realm alone and he excels at it. Perfect timing also works best on the GM due to his BS 5 psycannon meaning you dont need pallies to up your S7 saturation (or can instead fit 3 of them). 

 

For builds I'm currently sold on:

GM- psycannon, master crafted ndh, cuirass.

(I am also running draigo and a libby just fyi).

 

That said my group is discussing going with a more standardized rule for relics to help alleviate some of the disparity between codices.. which would be something to this effect:

"exchange 1 weapon/armour/gun for a replacement of the same type. Take any additional relics that do not require an exchange".  

 

GW screwed certain armies like orks/GKs while giving more freedom to others and having absolutely no restrictions on supplements like crimson slaughter, black legion, champs of fenris etc. I'd be interested on any thoughts on this approach btw.

 

Anyway back on track, if we do approve this 'house rule' to relics I may instead consider changing the ndh for the soul glaive.

 

And thats what I got for now.. feels good to be back. 

[Adeptus]

I don't understand why everyone is so gaga about the Cuirass. The only benefits I can see over regular Terminator armour is It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain.

 

Neither of which are helpful when you're getting smacked in the face by a S8 powerfist that inflicts instant death.

 

The overwhelming majority of times my GM has died, it's because of something S8+ and AP1 or AP2. Cuirass doesn't help with that.

 

Sure, it means it will take longer for you to die the death of a thousand cuts from a lot of weaker attacks, but in that case I think I'd rather have the Glaive and be able to pulverise those weaker units before they get to attack me.

 

Am I missing something?

[Brom MKIV]

It's a hard call. The glaive can be murderously killy and rerolling it's activation is super reliable. However the cuirass increases the durability of the bearers unit exponentially. It can't tank s8+ but those shots aren't usually high rof and you can try to prioritize the units that carry them to eliminate those threats first. The cuirass largely makes the bearers unit immune to small arms and even resistant to ap2 as long as it's not ID. You can take risks you otherwise wouldn't dare to. Repeatedly.

 

 

That said I love the glaive. Luckily master crafted and digi weapons can bridge the gap a little. Otherwise if you're group is open to the idea you might be able to run both together.