My opinion on the new codex

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I have sent an e-mail to GW asking them to explain to me how the game designers feel GK are able to compete on even footing with Tau and Eldar.   I want to hear how their play testing went assuring them that GK were able to win 50% of their games against that army

 

Don't worry, they were play testing using the new to be released 7th edition Tau and Eldar dexes.

 

Where they both get the Jervis Grey Knight treatment.

 

 

 

but the strike force detachment + GOI + cheaper personal teleporters has made us very mobile which is huge in this edition.

 

Which would be great if SW Drop Pods weren't a thing, and GoI worked with our Teleport Homers...

[Quozzo]

To be fair, I don't really care about codex fluff. It's usually an okay story showcasing the models. It gives you a bit of insight about the army, but never anything really profound. With BL novels coming out pretty quickly, I can access lots of very well written fluff (okay, not that much about GKs). But I'll spend a couple of hours reading the fluff and countless hours playing with the rules. And while the rules are not bad, they aren't good either. Worst, they are bland, making al those gaming hours less interesting. Of course, I can get allies. But I don't want to get a second army, find a paint scheme, build and paint non-GKs models just to be able to use my current models. I've got a Tau army to use when I want to play non-imperial.

Codex fluff is the only resource we have which builds the chapters character. Novels only focus around one event, and usually around one antagonist. While the novels character is full of character *ahem* it says very little about the chapter. The codex gives us a lot of information about the chapter, wars they have been in and how they were resolved, the creation of the legendary chapter 666, and probably most importantly is the character and attitude of other Grey Knights, how they act and how they became to be the Supreme Grand Master or a brother-captain. A Black Library novel only really goes in depth about one of those little excerpts you see on someone else's page. A novel probably takes longer to read, but has less information about the chapter than a codex. At least that's my take on it. I like the fluff but the rules I'm not so chuffed about.

[IK Viper]

I basically see the NSF Detachment as a way for GK to run what amounts to a Drop Pod style army.  The same tactics apply essentially, just without the scoring AV12 solo cups setting everywhere. 

 

I think a lot of the same tactics, strengths, and weaknesses apply.  We have to start thinking about our army in that way. 

 

Really interested how non-GK players interpret the "can," roll reserves starting on turn 1 thing.  I know what I want it to mean, but not sure if we really have that degree of flexibility.  If so we need to abuse the power of such choice with regard to when to hit the field.  Makes us really good at denying game turns of shooting to the enemy.   In some cases you might be able to hold off the entire army except for an Inquisitor in the corner behind a Bastion working a comm's relay until bottom of turn 2, which is really powerful at limiting the damage output of shooting armies. 

[HiveFleetKelari]

I basically see the NSF Detachment as a way for GK to run what amounts to a Drop Pod style army.  The same tactics apply essentially, just without the scoring AV12 solo cups setting everywhere. 

 

I think a lot of the same tactics, strengths, and weaknesses apply.  We have to start thinking about our army in that way. 

 

Really interested how non-GK players interpret the "can," roll reserves starting on turn 1 thing.  I know what I want it to mean, but not sure if we really have that degree of flexibility.  If so we need to abuse the power of such choice with regard to when to hit the field.  Makes us really good at denying game turns of shooting to the enemy.   In some cases you might be able to hold off the entire army except for an Inquisitor in the corner behind a Bastion working a comm's relay until bottom of turn 2, which is really powerful at limiting the damage output of shooting armies. 

 

My only concern with this strategy is that it gives your opponent free reign of the board, particularly if you're playing Maelstrom missions. Especially if you're waiting to drop at the bottom of turn 2.

 

But I suppose you know the mission before you deploy, so you can adjust your strategy accordingly. Might not be such a bad idea after all...

[Purifying Tempest]

I think just about any instance of limiting your firepower against your opponent's full wrath is never a good idea.

 

I liked the idea of deep strike until I saw what it really was about: dropping in your units 1 at a time in very inconvenient places for the most part and watching your opponent eat them one at a time.  Dice are dice, and gambling on Red 37 to pop up every time is just that... gambling.

 

I see NSF as a crafty dodge around our horrendous troop tax that can occasionally land us some fun interactions that may boost our army in unexpected ways.

 

More importantly, though, I see NSF as a super-allied detachment that can bring the full fury of Grey Knight strength into an allied codex.  You can field 2 Dreadknights in place of the typical 1 as an allied detachment.  If you wanted to get fluffy with that idea, you could deep strike the GK NSF down to the primary detachment they are rescuing from the enemy.  They port in, lay down a beating, and then are gone just as quick.

[Mouse83]

 

 

 I'm not angry, I'm sad.

 

same here bro

 

when i heard the new codex is coming out I thought "wow, i can`t wait to use all the new cool stuff, check all the changes, read the fixed fluff for draigo", I even scheduled a game with a friend on the day GK codex got released

I got my ass whooped both, by my friend and by games workshop

this codex is such a downer....

 

++ EDIT. Removed inappropriate video. t++

[Captain Coolpants]

I approve on this video

[jeffersonian000]

I approve on this video

Got'a git me some fine a$$ warp dust!

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

My, holy passage?

(There's also an uncensored version out on the nets as well )

[Valerian]

I have sent an e-mail to GW asking them to explain to me how the game designers feel GK are able to compete on even footing with Tau and Eldar. I want to hear how their play testing went assuring them that GK were able to win 50% of their games against that army. That is their job as game designers... Please let them know that in e-mails. They cannot be allowed to put out a poor product and not catch flak about it.

Let us know if they actually respond.

[Valerian]

I basically see the NSF Detachment as a way for GK to run what amounts to a Drop Pod style army. The same tactics apply essentially, just without the scoring AV12 solo cups setting everywhere.

But also without the safety and reliability that Drop Pods bring. NSF would be great if there were better assurances that you won't Mishap and/or piecemeal yourself to death in the attempt. Drop Pods mitigate both of those risks.

 

Servo Skulls would mitigate one of those risks for us, but...

[treadhead]

Where to start

stuff i loved that is no more

psybolt ammo

servo skulls

orbital strike relays

using draigo to field 1 unit of paladins as my 6th troops choice

vindicares, eversors, and callidus oh my

astral aim

working psycannons

nemesis weapons that don't suck

 

having read through the new codex here's the things i do like from it

tech marine no longer sucking up an elites choice

dedicated land raider transports

that's about it

 

ticked off about

nemesis weapons

losing the heavy support slot for dreads it was so handy to be able to field a pair and only use a slot a piece (rather than 2/3rds of my elites slots)

general nerfing and weirdness extraction

the sneaking suspicion that GW might release codex psybolt ammo 3 months down the line

 

stuff em I'm going to keep using the 5th edition codex

[Mouse83]

this codex lacks (comparing to other new realses)

- refined rules

- torelable fluff 

- new units

- proper artwork

Everything that GW did not know what to do with got removed.I`m not saying that adding new units in all new codexes is mandatory, but just going through this realse I can`t help a feeling that it have not recived the attencion it should.

 

I have a hunch that we got a new codex just because GW share price systematically is dropping from last 3 months

http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=GAW

[Gentlemanloser]

We got a new Codex becuase Ward left and GW are dismantelling his work for them.

[corai]

I really think we should be glad to have a new codex (in print instead of digital) at all. It seems pretty clear we've been turned into a fluff driven ally/supplement book (not unlike the tempestus book or one of the marine supplements). Clearly GK aren't supposed to excel against none daemon opponents in full force. What we've basically got is a sexualised allied contingent to an imperial army, not unlike the inquisition codex (whose read nescessitated the change anyway to avoid crazy repetition of units and special characters).

 

For me, this is confirmed by the fact that the codex cover is not done by the same person who has done all the primary codex covers since 6th ed. We are basically a supplement to the armies of the imperium (as, arguably we should be) and I'm glad we even got a book instead of just a dateslate

[Reclusiarch Darius]

^This is my feeling also. We stink of being an Ally codex. We barely have more unit selection than Scions, and that's only because of our legacy model kits from 5th. If they could, GW would reduce us to a 2 HQs, 2 Troops and the Dreadknight. 

 

That said, I think we can figure out ways to be effective in 7th. Allies are a must though, Red Hunters look better and better every day since our new codex dropped. Skyfire Centurions solve two big problems in one unit, Bikers offer a tough and fast Troops unit to tank-hunt with melta and take far objectives, and Stormhammers offer a TDA unit that doesn't evaporate to InterTides or other AP2 spam. 

[IK Viper]

GW responded to my e-mail with some basic tactics answer that basically says, "Deepstrike in and assault them."  Which is great against a static foe or a foe that is to dumb to reserve a lot of stuff.  Asked the guy if he had played 6 Serpents and 2 WK's or against 5 IK's.  How he fairs against 4 Riptides with Interceptor AP2 blasts and a Firebase Cadre behind it.  All these are examples of lists I have actually seen played, not just speculation.  I am not sure how he can honestly tell me that a pure GK army should win 50% of their games against any of these armies. 

 

With regard to the NSF rules acting like a Drop Pod army, I am looking at running a 34 point inquisitor with a Bastion, Comm Relay, Ammo Dump and 3 Plasma Cannon Servitors as an ally.  Gives you some cheap AP 2, a Comm Relay, Ammo Dump rerolls 1's to hit (reroll get's hot, just like a twin-linked blast), and this Bastion gives me a huge LOS blocker that I can hide in.  Servo Skulls, Comm Relay, and a run move afterward are all really powerful when combine together.  If your opponent does not have a way to kill an AV 14 building, or an inquisitor standing behind it in the corner working the Comm Relay (since it can now be placed within 6 inches of the structure it was bout for) you could safely reserve everything and go 2nd, if you are really confidant, you can even go 2nd and reserve your GK army, denying 2 game turns of shooting to a shooting army.  Obviously this is not a good idea against some armies, and a bad idea in some missions, but it is an option.  There is a lot of power in being able to let the game develop for 2 turns before committing your forces to the fight.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm surprised they didn't just reply with "Forge the Narative!".

 

LoL @ suggesting Deep Striking in facing 4+ Interceptor Riptides.

 

That will work, right guys! ;)

[IK Viper]

Not honestly convinced they actually play their own game that much.  At least not with powerfully built lists. 

[Adeptus]

Not honestly convinced they actually play their own game that much.  At least not with powerfully built lists.

I'm absolutely certain they don't. And that's fine, and the way they push narrative games is fine, and it's the way I prefer to play.

 

But it only takes one guy to push the envelope even a little bit, and the whole house of cards comes crashing down. As soon as your local Tau player realises how good Riptides are, then that narrative gaming simply becomes an exercise in getting models out of their cases, and then putting them straight back in their cases. And that sucks.

 

It's fine to push narrative gaming as your intended method of play, but it's NOT fine to refuse to acknowledge that you've built some units more powerfully than others. It's not fine if you refuse to acknowledge that some people are going to take advantage of those powerful units, and it's not fine to refuse to acknowledge that some people like to play competitively, and to build your game accordingly.

 

People lament that we have lost so much in our current codex. I agree, we have, but I always pretty much played pure knights so I didn't lose that much. What I lament is that not only has the volume of units gone down, but the percentage of useful units in our codex has gone down. I don't mind only having half a dozen units to choose from, if all of them are useful units that synergise well with the other units in the codex. If I could feel like I was taking anything other than Terminators and NDKs without cutting my own throat, I'd be a much happier player!

[Gentlemanloser]

I would like to Like the above post multiple times. :)

 

/like

/salute

[thraxdown]

I share some of the frustration about the new codex, but I don't feel like every army should have a counter to every other army. Each army should have weaknesses and strengths that can be exploited otherwise you're playing a pretty vanilla game.

[Gentlemanloser]

This can be achived, with differences to not feel like eveyone is placing the same army, as long as the basic toolsets are covered.

 

How do you deal with Hordes?  It could be Templates.  Or RoF.  Or specialised things like Cleansing Flame and your CC attacks having Soulblaze.

 

The problem arises when you aren't given any option to counter something.

 

Then you games of Rock - Paper - Scissors.  Which are inherently unbalaned and lessen strategy.

[Valerian]

I share some of the frustration about the new codex, but I don't feel like every army should have a counter to every other army. Each army should have weaknesses and strengths that can be exploited otherwise you're playing a pretty vanilla game.

 

That's not really what folks are frustrated about though, for the most part.  For me, I'm particularly frustrated with the implementation of the high-potential-to-be-cool Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, that just falls short of being really useful.

 

It's like they issued us a fast car and a highly skilled driver.....but then failed to provide a pit crew. 

[jeffersonian000]

This can be achived, with differences to not feel like eveyone is placing the same army, as long as the basic toolsets are covered.

 

How do you deal with Hordes? It could be Templates. Or RoF. Or specialised things like Cleansing Flame and your CC attacks having Soulblaze.

 

The problem arises when you aren't given any option to counter something.

 

Then you games of Rock - Paper - Scissors. Which are inherently unbalaned and lessen strategy.

Or even worse, when you have a single option that is overcosted or competes with a more efficient unit, such as our SR versus Interceptors: both are great, both are better in multiples, both fight for Fast slots. What would have been better? A second AA option that competes with Heavy (Purgation) or an Elite option for our most underwhelming slot (AA Dread). Unfortunately, the fix is multiple FoC, as seen in all of the 7th Ed codexes so far. SRs now only compete from point to point, rather than slot to slot, which still means dropping something useful to include something else useful while paying a huge tax in Troop and HQ.

 

Kind of a no win scenario at 1500pts, a point level many tournaments are going to for balance (ie, 1500pts restricts a lot of choices).

 

SJ