IK Viper Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I am having trouble fitting in any AA in my GK lists that I have been working up. I think that in a lot of cases we may be better served with more bodies. SR's can be killed in one shot and losing 200+ points to one gun is tough to take when you are already having to get a lot of work done with not a lot of units. Though they are also really good ant AT. Given the choice I would probably take a NDK with a Hvy. Psycannon, PT, and a Hammer/ Great Sword instead of a SR because of the constant field presences. GK might be one of those armies that just needs to ignore the air and try and just mitigate the damage flyers can do to them, looking to win with more boots on the ground. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Pretty much what ai've been doing for a few years now, Viper. The nerf to Psycannons hurts a lot because it was my go to AA/AT/AI platform because it could snap fire at Flyers, Rend on Tanks, S7 on MCs, and still pump out 2 shots over a Stormbolter into mobs. With Salvo, however, it's just my Termies popping shots at Flyers, punching vehicles, and shredding infantry. If our Dreadnoughts gained an AA option, they would a go-to for our Elite slot. As it stands, just ignoring the Flyers beyond forcing jinks seems to be the best we can muster without going full SR. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 We're close to unplayable at 1,500 points. I'm serious. Because Tau can still run DoubleTide very easily at that point level, and you'll still see 4 Serpent (if not a really lean 6 Serpent list). CSM still spam Nurgle Oblits and Heldrakes, they just maybe field less infantry and take a Lord instead of a Prince w/Black Mace. Necrons take less infantry, still see triple Annihilation Barge and Scythes. What can we run at 1500 that can compete? Terminator Troops will set you back 300-400, even with minimal upgrades. 2x Dreadknights with standard kit is going to be another 400 odd points. You then look at a HQ ranging between 135-200 points. After that, maybe some Purifiers or a Raven, but that's it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 We're close to unplayable at 1,500 points. I'm serious. Because Tau can still run DoubleTide very easily at that point level, and you'll still see 4 Serpent (if not a really lean 6 Serpent list). CSM still spam Nurgle Oblits and Heldrakes, they just maybe field less infantry and take a Lord instead of a Prince w/Black Mace. Necrons take less infantry, still see triple Annihilation Barge and Scythes. What can we run at 1500 that can compete? Terminator Troops will set you back 300-400, even with minimal upgrades. 2x Dreadknights with standard kit is going to be another 400 odd points. You then look at a HQ ranging between 135-200 points. After that, maybe some Purifiers or a Raven, but that's it. Exactly. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 We're close to unplayable at 1,500 points. I'm serious. Because Tau can still run DoubleTide very easily at that point level, and you'll still see 4 Serpent (if not a really lean 6 Serpent list). CSM still spam Nurgle Oblits and Heldrakes, they just maybe field less infantry and take a Lord instead of a Prince w/Black Mace. Necrons take less infantry, still see triple Annihilation Barge and Scythes. What can we run at 1500 that can compete? 1,500 NSF + CAD HQ: Libby (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI, GS (195) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI, GS (195) HQ: Libby (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Total: 1,495 5 NDK (with an NDK Warlord with reroll Warlord traits)? Totally Battle Forged as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 That's the best luck I've had as far as fliers go, if I can't maneuver around them I just pretend they're not there. I might take some pay cannon shots at them if there's nothing else valuable to shoot in range. Unless of course they get cute and go into hover mode.... then I smash them with a hammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I actually used to do really well killing flyers with Purgation Squads in 6th when I could throw Prescience on them from inside a Bastion. OMI with a Psycannon and 4 Psycannons from a Purgation Squad will tear up stuff on the ground as I am sure you all know, but will actually hurt flyers pretty well too based on the weight of fire with Prescience doubling your number of shots. The concept still works, but only outdoors... not sure why this change was needed. What really killed this was not being able to deploy your bastion in your table half. A Purgation Squad in a Bastion at mid-board is nasty... I am honestly seeing fewer flyers in general these days though. The SW flyers are honestly the scariest to GK units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Imagine.... I'm usually playing 1000pts. A pretty uncommon pointage and not what 40k is geared for. I'm not playing Battle Forged in the near future as I don't plan using an HQ for quite a while (just termies and NDKs!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Honestly I just want games. Have only theory crafted at this point. I think in a month we can come back and really tear this book apart looking for every gem we can, not that there is much there to go over really. Take heart brothers, the Emperor protects. I bet GK would work really well with Salamanders. They kill the tanks, we bring the bullets and combat power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 1,500 NSF + CAD HQ: Libby (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI, GS (195) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI, GS (195) HQ: Libby (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Troop: Strike x5, (110) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Heavy: NDK, PT, HI (185) Total: 1,495 5 NDK (with an NDK Warlord with reroll Warlord traits)? Totally Battle Forged as well. Here is the issue though GL. We're just spamming Dreadknights and hoping that's enough. It's not a balanced list, and plasma/other AP2 spam will really hurt that list. Your scoring options are minimal by defintion, and if you start losing DK's you have no backup plan. This is my issue with 40k in general. The inclination of players is to use a variety of units working in conjunction to make a viable and cohesive force. The reality is you spam power units and bring stuff that supports them. The disconnect is what leads to 4 Riptide, 6 Serpent etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3793871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Like the guys just spamming Riptides, with minimal scoring units? We get to play the same optimising game as them. This is my issue with 40k in general. The inclination of players is to use a variety of units working in conjunction to make a viable and cohesive force. The reality is you spam power units and bring stuff that supports them. The disconnect is what leads to 4 Riptide, 6 Serpent etc. +1 It's Hulk Smash over Strategy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3794002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Typical GK player making a list: Cheap HQ, aka Libby, maybe upgrade as points permit... cause stern is good and all... Troops... aka insert 5 terminators here. And what do I do with the rest? Oh, that's right... Ripti... I mean serpen... Oh, wait... I'm playing grey knights right? DREADKNIGHTS! See, I think it is funny... GW is going to sell the min/maxers on a ton of big 50-100 dollar models... and then do away with the ability to spam the crap out of it down the line once they made the grab. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3794064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I'm actually sadened by GK list building. It's as you say. Libby (maybe a BC), 1 (maybe two for CADs) GKT. DreadKnights and Interceptors for your PA dudes. Maybe a SR. That's it. I can't bring myself to comment in the Army List subforum atm, all lists are the same. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3794075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I'm only buying two Dreadknights... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3794522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 When I got the new Adepta Sororitas codex... I thought it was fairly shallow in unit choices. Most of the lists built themselves and had no reliable way to take advantage of their heavy weapons (all power armor). After looking at the GK codex... I've been thinking that while GKs are stronger... their depth is as shallow if not shallower than sisters. At least when it comes to list building. That's a huge indictment on the quality of codex they gave grey knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3794815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoaDirty Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 ^This is my feeling also. We stink of being an Ally codex. We barely have more unit selection than Scions, and that's only because of our legacy model kits from 5th. If they could, GW would reduce us to a 2 HQs, 2 Troops and the Dreadknight. That said, I think we can figure out ways to be effective in 7th. Allies are a must though, Red Hunters look better and better every day since our new codex dropped. Skyfire Centurions solve two big problems in one unit, Bikers offer a tough and fast Troops unit to tank-hunt with melta and take far objectives, and Stormhammers offer a TDA unit that doesn't evaporate to InterTides or other AP2 spam. Forgive my ignorance (I play mostly Tyranids with GK as secondary), but which is the Red Hunters codex? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3795997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 It's a Forgeworld Chapter Tactic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3796004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 ^This is my feeling also. We stink of being an Ally codex. We barely have more unit selection than Scions, and that's only because of our legacy model kits from 5th. If they could, GW would reduce us to a 2 HQs, 2 Troops and the Dreadknight. That said, I think we can figure out ways to be effective in 7th. Allies are a must though, Red Hunters look better and better every day since our new codex dropped. Skyfire Centurions solve two big problems in one unit, Bikers offer a tough and fast Troops unit to tank-hunt with melta and take far objectives, and Stormhammers offer a TDA unit that doesn't evaporate to InterTides or other AP2 spam. Forgive my ignorance (I play mostly Tyranids with GK as secondary), but which is the Red Hunters codex?There is no codex. Its a set of Chapter Tactics printed by Forge World, along with various other chapters. Just google it and you should get their rules in an FAQ/Erreta. Speaking of which, I assume its now possible to include RH as BB without an Inq. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3796005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoaDirty Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 ^This is my feeling also. We stink of being an Ally codex. We barely have more unit selection than Scions, and that's only because of our legacy model kits from 5th. If they could, GW would reduce us to a 2 HQs, 2 Troops and the Dreadknight. That said, I think we can figure out ways to be effective in 7th. Allies are a must though, Red Hunters look better and better every day since our new codex dropped. Skyfire Centurions solve two big problems in one unit, Bikers offer a tough and fast Troops unit to tank-hunt with melta and take far objectives, and Stormhammers offer a TDA unit that doesn't evaporate to InterTides or other AP2 spam. Forgive my ignorance (I play mostly Tyranids with GK as secondary), but which is the Red Hunters codex?There is no codex. Its a set of Chapter Tactics printed by Forge World, along with various other chapters. Just google it and you should get their rules in an FAQ/Erreta. Speaking of which, I assume its now possible to include RH as BB without an Inq. OK, thanks. And I'm guessing the bikes as Troops are by taking the Chapter Master on a Bike? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3796118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Speaking of which, I assume its now possible to include RH as BB without an Inq. Yeah well vanilla Marines are all BB with us now, so its a meaningless restriction. I mean, Inquisitors are pretty useful (servo-skulls), but yeah, no need to take them anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3796895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMoon Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ya know all our old lists seemed to be the same with 3 dreads with auto cannons and henchmen...... lord forbid we cant spam henchmen anymore. been playing with the new dex and still having a blast! get out there and play some games and have fun... my dreadknights really like killing riptides. lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3796964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ya know all our old lists seemed to be the same with 3 dreads with auto cannons and henchmen...... lord forbid we cant spam henchmen anymore. been playing with the new dex and still having a blast! get out there and play some games and have fun... my dreadknights really like killing riptides. lol I disagree with this statement. In the last codex, we had 5 options for troops. That was amazingly flexible. In a time where two troops were required, we had 5 different core options to build a list around. Not to mention the cool things that relatively cheap inquisitorial HQs could do for us. Now we only have two troops, one of which is fairly lackluster given its price. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3797014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ya know all our old lists seemed to be the same with 3 dreads with auto cannons and henchmen...... lord forbid we cant spam henchmen anymore. been playing with the new dex and still having a blast! get out there and play some games and have fun... my dreadknights really like killing riptides. lol I disagree with this statement. In the last codex, we had 5 options for troops. That was amazingly flexible. In a time where two troops were required, we had 5 different core options to build a list around. Not to mention the cool things that relatively cheap inquisitorial HQs could do for us. Now we only have two troops, one of which is fairly lackluster given its price. Not only that but you had about a dozen different options in henchmen alone. When I ran my inquisition list I had six troops at 1850 and none of those units were identical. It never felt spammy and you had troops that could fulfill different roles. We lost a lot of variety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3797130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I didn't use three auto Dreads. NDKs all the way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3797258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 ya know all our old lists seemed to be the same with 3 dreads with auto cannons and henchmen...... lord forbid we cant spam henchmen anymore. been playing with the new dex and still having a blast! get out there and play some games and have fun... my dreadknights really like killing riptides. lol Nope. At most I ran two PsyDreads, and it was matchup dependent. Henchmen offered a viable mandatory Troops unit to support our expensive Elites, Fast and Heavy units. Also, I didn't spam, I took at most 2-3 shooty units to bolster my gunline of Purifiers. I disagree with this statement. In the last codex, we had 5 options for troops. That was amazingly flexible. In a time where two troops were required, we had 5 different core options to build a list around. Not to mention the cool things that relatively cheap inquisitorial HQs could do for us. Now we only have two troops, one of which is fairly lackluster given its price. 100% this. Having said that, it's never been a better time to field our Termies so...not all bad. But yeah, the loss of options is annoying. Its basically 'take a Libby+Terminator squad, hooray you have a Nemesis Strikeforce'. I can't think of any situtation where I would want Strike squads instead of Terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295864-my-opinion-on-the-new-codex/page/3/#findComment-3797434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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