DarKnight Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Just something I was considering today. It seems as if they are considered the most successful Legion just because the IP says so. We've seen the Ultramarines (KnF, Betrayer), World Eaters (Betrayer), Ik Sons (A Thousand Sons), portrayed in a manner that befits their upbringing, have we seen the Sons of Horus portrayed in a way that shows why they were the most successful Legion during the crusade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 They were probably considered the most successful because they found their primarch first and he got things rolling. I feel the itch to mention other primarchs who could have done the same if not better, but most of it is speculative. I think just because they found Horus first and he was incredibly political, he was considered the "most successful". But even the most successful is an arbitrary decision (one I couldn't make without bias). "Most successful at what?" Is the question needed to be asked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostmourne Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 A bunch of Legions claim to have brought I to compliance an amount of planets second only to Horus, but none contest that Horus has complied more. But he did have most time with the Emperor. So. Yeah. Half the Primarchs thought he was the best. Some thought him crap. Or at least non the best. Guilliman, Angron, Russ and the Lion being a few. In terms of what achieved. Guilliman arguably achieved more of a utopian society. But then Horus was the master of war, not Civilisation. Context is everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The FW books do a good job of explaining why the LW/SoH were considered best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Of course, in Horus Rising Guilliman was stated to have been one of the loudest voices championing Horus's elevation. All his "I ALWAYS knew Horus was a baddie! ALWAYS, I TELL YOU!" in Unremembered Empire aside. And as far as creating the most utopian society, that wasn't Roboute. Fulgrim started out with a resource starved hellhole Chemos and remade it without needing to wage wars of conquest or even maintain a standing army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Yeah I probably should've specified without reducing this to ANOTHER "which Legion/Primarch is best" thread. This was made with the idea that yes Horus is the greatest Primarch and the SoH, preeminent amongst all Legions. However you qualify that is fine. What books in the Horus Heresy line have shown that as well as displayed their preferred style of warfare. The FW books do a good job of explaining why the LW/SoH were considered best.Yeah they do an excellent job, I was more referring to the Horus heresy book line Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus achieved the highest number of compliances. That means they conquered the most worlds. Horus was a general and warrior first and foremost. The Ultramarines had the second-highest number of compliances - however Guilliman was more of an empire-builder. The 500 Worlds are the most obvious examples - compliant, civilized, and productive. The likes of the World Eaters and Night Lords were only unleashed when the Emperor absolutely needed to make an example of a recalcitrant human world or a foul alien race. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 What it doesn't mention is how many of these worlds stayed compliant or needed clean up. More than not they hit first and hard, then left. I'd say the Word Bearers had a better state of compliance with each world they took before Monarchia. The Lion had almost as many victories as Horus, but in a shorter time frame. Guilliman had his 500 planets. The mere sound of the World Eaters or Night Lords coming pacified planets without bloodshed. So what do you mean by best? Simply saying the SoH are the best doesn't describe anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 since all the legions have not been buffed out by FW and have not had a proper table top engagement. None of the above . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Interesting thing about Guilliman’s opinion of Horus in Unremembered Empire- maybe there was a bit of “I always suspected that guy” from him regarding Horus but I also recall that Guilliman admits to himself that Horus was one of the few primarchs he looked up to. If I’m not misremembering, then in context it’s like when a person is betrayed or failed by another that they adored and they self-rationalise it to their pride after. “Oh, I saw all the signs she was going to cheat on me the whole time”. And even if I’m wrong, Guilliman is meant to be a politician as well. A public declaration of support for Horus’ promotion while nursing his own private reservations completely fits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Interesting thing about Guilliman’s opinion of Horus in Unremembered Empire- maybe there was a bit of “I always suspected that guy” from him regarding Horus but I also recall that Guilliman admits to himself that Horus was one of the few primarchs he looked up to. If I’m not misremembering, then in context it’s like when a person is betrayed or failed by another that they adored and they self-rationalise it to their pride after. “Oh, I saw all the signs she was going to cheat on me the whole time”. And even if I’m wrong, Guilliman is meant to be a politician as well. A public declaration of support for Horus’ promotion while nursing his own private reservations completely fits. I agree with that too. It's easy to forget that primarchs share human emotions and psychologies with them. I think we can give mr Dan the benefit of the doubt... "HAIL ABNETT" ...ahem - while reading his books I mean. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I wonder if we weren't supposed to pick up on "Methinks the Battle King doth protest too much", given that in another of his interior monologues Rob admits that there were only two Primarchs he really looked up to: Horus and Lion'El. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I've never bought that. The Lion was found to late to be part of the 'mature' Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I wonder if we weren't supposed to pick up on "Methinks the Battle King doth protest too much", given that in another of his interior monologues Rob admits that there were only two Primarchs he really looked up to: Horus and Lion'El. I got a [Censored by the Inquisition] when I heard that Guilliman looked up to the Lion as his Spiritual Liege. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 It strikes me as intentional on Abnett’s part, the good BL authors work to encourage active reader participation in figuring out the characters, rather than just flatly telling the reader what the characters are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Just something I was considering today. It seems as if they are considered the most successful Legion just because the IP says so. We've seen the Ultramarines (KnF, Betrayer), World Eaters (Betrayer), Ik Sons (A Thousand Sons), portrayed in a manner that befits their upbringing, have we seen the Sons of Horus portrayed in a way that shows why they were the most successful Legion during the crusade?Let's put it this way. A lot of their success relies on being at the right place, at the right time. In many of their campaigns that involved inter-Legion participation, it wasn't uncommon for Horus to use the other Legions to put the ducks in a row so he could take them out himself. As a result, he was usually seen as the guy who carried the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I wonder if we weren't supposed to pick up on "Methinks the Battle King doth protest too much", given that in another of his interior monologues Rob admits that there were only two Primarchs he really looked up to: Horus and Lion'El. I got a [Censored by the Inquisition] when I heard that Guilliman looked up to the Lion as his Spiritual Liege. Also gave me a huge what-skulls-are-made-of to learn this (in a totally legitimate, HH-loving way). Started to re-invigorate the pride I have in the I Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Honestly the Horus Heresy seems to support my opinion of the Dark Angels. Between a couple short stories and the two novels, it's pretty clear that the Fallen Angels were over all the more agreeable Dark Angels and over all better people (See: Call of the Lion? the one with Astelan and the Novels). The Lion is a terrible leader (See: Both Novels (and kinda The Lion short story)). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 That's a function of the writer. Gav doesn't try to build in differences between the Legions and later chapters. The legions are just ports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Honestly the Horus Heresy seems to support my opinion of the Dark Angels. Between a couple short stories and the two novels, it's pretty clear that the Fallen Angels were over all the more agreeable Dark Angels and over all better people (See: Call of the Lion? the one with Astelan and the Novels). The Lion is a terrible leader (See: Both Novels (and kinda The Lion short story)). I think he just lacks the charisma that other primarchs have. He's a solitary person...kind of a black knight of sorts. He justifies the means by the end and uses others to get what he wants, but ultimately he holds himself accountable and has a hard time expressing it. I feel like I want to compare him to Vegeta from DBZ. In being unlikable, we like him more. He might be a jerk yet he pulls out in the end and holds himself to the highest standards and won't send others in his place if he can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Honestly the Horus Heresy seems to support my opinion of the Dark Angels. Between a couple short stories and the two novels, it's pretty clear that the Fallen Angels were over all the more agreeable Dark Angels and over all better people (See: Call of the Lion? the one with Astelan and the Novels). The Lion is a terrible leader (See: Both Novels (and kinda The Lion short story)). I think he just lacks the charisma that other primarchs have. He's a solitary person...kind of a black knight of sorts. He justifies the means by the end and uses others to get what he wants, but ultimately he holds himself accountable and has a hard time expressing it. I feel like I want to compare him to Vegeta from DBZ. In being unlikable, we like him more. He might be a jerk yet he pulls out in the end and holds himself to the highest standards and won't send others in his place if he can. You need the charisma to be a good leader is the thing. And his lack of charisma (and people skill in general) led to the whole mess on Caliban. Oh yeah, Luther here was the only reason the other Orders rallied behind me, but let's not mention that or give him any credit. Oh let's send these guys back and then when they constantly request to be transferred to the field I'll just ignore them. That'll go swimmingly won't it. I'm not saying he particularly did it on purpose but he never noticed it because of his absurdly blatant lack of people skills. Oh, also punching a guy's head off because he didn't want to go against the Emperor, that's the highest standard right there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I wouldn't complain about the Lion's lack of charisma, if I were you. After all, the I Legion could've gotten Angron.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Honestly the Horus Heresy seems to support my opinion of the Dark Angels. Between a couple short stories and the two novels, it's pretty clear that the Fallen Angels were over all the more agreeable Dark Angels and over all better people (See: Call of the Lion? the one with Astelan and the Novels). The Lion is a terrible leader (See: Both Novels (and kinda The Lion short story)). I think he just lacks the charisma that other primarchs have. He's a solitary person...kind of a black knight of sorts. He justifies the means by the end and uses others to get what he wants, but ultimately he holds himself accountable and has a hard time expressing it.I feel like I want to compare him to Vegeta from DBZ. In being unlikable, we like him more. He might be a jerk yet he pulls out in the end and holds himself to the highest standards and won't send others in his place if he can. You need the charisma to be a good leader is the thing. And his lack of charisma (and people skill in general) led to the whole mess on Caliban. Oh yeah, Luther here was the only reason the other Orders rallied behind me, but let's not mention that or give him any credit. Oh let's send these guys back and then when they constantly request to be transferred to the field I'll just ignore them. That'll go swimmingly won't it. I'm not saying he particularly did it on purpose but he never noticed it because of his absurdly blatant lack of people skills. Oh, also punching a guy's head off because he didn't want to go against the Emperor, that's the highest standard right there. That last little bit might just be Gav's fault. Don't get me wrong, he did great with his 40k novel, but the Legion...ehhh.... It might also be that Nemiel was willing to be resistant to the Lion and was open about it, and his (not really, but bare with me here) treachery snapped something in the Lion that reminded him of Horus' betrayal of their father. I personally think that the Dark Angels were poorly written. What I mean by that is that I feel like ADB's shorts and the cameo in Unremembered empire are more about the legion and the Lion than two books and a short by Gav. That's how bad it is, and I'm not the only who thinks that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Honestly the Horus Heresy seems to support my opinion of the Dark Angels. Between a couple short stories and the two novels, it's pretty clear that the Fallen Angels were over all the more agreeable Dark Angels and over all better people (See: Call of the Lion? the one with Astelan and the Novels). The Lion is a terrible leader (See: Both Novels (and kinda The Lion short story)).I think he just lacks the charisma that other primarchs have. He's a solitary person...kind of a black knight of sorts. He justifies the means by the end and uses others to get what he wants, but ultimately he holds himself accountable and has a hard time expressing it.I feel like I want to compare him to Vegeta from DBZ. In being unlikable, we like him more. He might be a jerk yet he pulls out in the end and holds himself to the highest standards and won't send others in his place if he can. You need the charisma to be a good leader is the thing. And his lack of charisma (and people skill in general) led to the whole mess on Caliban. Oh yeah, Luther here was the only reason the other Orders rallied behind me, but let's not mention that or give him any credit. Oh let's send these guys back and then when they constantly request to be transferred to the field I'll just ignore them. That'll go swimmingly won't it. I'm not saying he particularly did it on purpose but he never noticed it because of his absurdly blatant lack of people skills. Oh, also punching a guy's head off because he didn't want to go against the Emperor, that's the highest standard right there. That last little bit might just be Gav's fault. Don't get me wrong, he did great with his 40k novel, but the Legion...ehhh.... It might also be that Nemiel was willing to be resistant to the Lion and was open about it, and his (not really, but bare with me here) treachery snapped something in the Lion that reminded him of Horus' betrayal of their father. I personally think that the Dark Angels were poorly written. What I mean by that is that I feel like ADB's shorts and the cameo in Unremembered empire are more about the legion and the Lion than two books and a short by Gav. That's how bad it is, and I'm not the only who thinks that. Well at least if you choose to ignore Gav, you still have books to reference... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 @Komrk Lol...seems we have more in common then we let on. At least ADBs shorts saved me, that and UE Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295968-have-the-luna-wolvessoh-been-portrayed-as-the-best/#findComment-3793912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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