Tournament/Competitive Chaos

[Uprising]

I have finally decided to get back into the gaming aspect of 40k, and have decided to enter a 1850 tournament in October with my chaos forces.  I have a good mix of chaos marines, and Daemons, but lack any forgeworld models.  Currently i am thinking CSM as my main with a daemon prince, 50 cultist(5 group of ten), 2x5 MON spawn, 1 heldrake, 3x mauler fiends, and defence line with quad gun.  The rest atm is unknown(probably Daemon allies). I have about two months to paint/practice with the force and despairingly need input.  Here are the rules of the tournament http://www.legionsgames.com/phpBB3/calendar.php?view=event&calEid=1760

 

Thanks for reading and your time. 

[Kilofix]

Am also entering a Tournament - here's my 1850 list:

 

Crimson Slaughter:

• Juggerlord - MoK, PF / LC + Daemonhart / Sigil
• 7 Bikes - MoK + IoW, 2 Melta, Champ w/P.Axe
• Typhus
• 14 Zombies
• 14 Zombies
• 5 Raptors - MoS + IoS, 2 Melta, Champ w/PF / LC
• 1 Heldrake (in purple EC colors)
• Bastion + Quad Gun, Escape Hatch

Black Legion

• Chaos Lord - MoZ, Jetbike, PF / LC + Crucible
• 8 Warp Talons - MoZ
• 10 Cultists

List isn't completely optimized but I wanted it to be a little fluffy.

[incinerator950]

You could make the BL cultists zombies.

[hornywingythingy]

Look at zhukovs topic on competitive 40k with CSM, looking at what you have a spawndemontide with be'lakor looks like a good bet, basically either sorceror on bike or be'lakor, two min cultists, Mon spawn, three maulers, 2+ heralds on disks in screamerstar, two units of horrors. Add to taste, cursed earth is the objective on the heralds, summon primarily from the horrors, bel or the sorcerer are after invisibility or shrouding. It works very well!

[hornywingythingy]

Zhukovs thread

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/

 

Kinda gets diluted imho but zhukovs analyses are good, people just diverge the discussion a bit.

[Chaeron]

Look at zhukovs topic on competitive 40k with CSM, looking at what you have a spawndemontide with be'lakor looks like a good bet, basically either sorceror on bike or be'lakor, two min cultists, Mon spawn, three maulers, 2+ heralds on disks in screamerstar, two units of horrors. Add to taste, cursed earth is the objective on the heralds, summon primarily from the horrors, bel or the sorcerer are after invisibility or shrouding. It works very well!

 

Lovely jubbly.

[Dallas Drake]

I also think the Tzeentch allies are good, as are Khorne (Heralds on Jugernaughts with Flesh Hounds).

 

I've got a mini tournament with friends this Sat, I'm running the following:

 

1500 points

 

Sorcerer (L3, Familiar, Melta, Bike, Sigil - Biomancy)

Sorcerer (L3, Familiar, Melta, Bike, Sigil - Biomancy)

 

Cultists x 10

Cultists x 10

 

Spawn (MoN) x 5

Spawn (MoN) x 5

 

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

 

Allies

Be'Lakor

Horrors x 10

 

Biomancy Sorcerers go with the Spawn, Be'Lakor casts invisibility & shrouding on stuff. Horrors camp backfield & give me an extra WC.

 

My only concern is the Sorcerers being forced into challenges so I'm thinking of giving them force swords instead of axes, Biomancy boosts like Iron Arm and Enfeeble make an axe less necessary & a force weapon with Initiative 7 is nice... Not sure though.

 

To make it 1850 I'd either rejig the Daemon allies completely to add Screamerstar/Khorne doggies or just add a 3rd Maulerfiend, make the Horrors 11+ & add a Slaanesh Soulgrinder.

[Uprising]

@Kilofix: Interesting list but two things.  One in my opinion if you take typhus you need 150 plus zombies.  I ran him exclusively  for most of 6th and had great success with that build.  The second is, I do not have the black legion or crimson slaugther codex or supplement.  I started to stop gaming and switch to the hobby side when all that madness started. 

 

@thingy: I have read that topic a few times while trying to figure out what I will do, its an excellent topic.  I have most of those units, but I need the screamers and be lakor rules.  Its a good list, but I take it that you will be summoning more horrors, plague bearers, and bloodthrister.  

 

@Drake:  That's a good list as well, might have to play test as well. 

 

Thanks for the input everyone9please keep them coming).  Would a full list of every model for chaos I have help? 

[Kilofix]

Btw, after some consideration, my list is now:

 

Crimson Slaughter:

• Juggerlord - MoK, PF / LC + Daemonhart / Sigil
• 7 Bikes - MoK + IoW, 2 Melta, Champ w/P.Axe
• Chaos Lord - MoN, Bike, PF / LC
• 5 Spawn - MoN
• Maulerfiend
• 6 Raptors - MoS + IoS, 2 Melta, Champ w/PF / LC
• Bastion + Quad Gun, Escape Hatch
• 10 Cultist
• 10 Cultist

Black Legion

• Chaos Lord - MoZ, Jetbike, PF / LC + Crucible
• 8 Warp Talons - MoZ
• 10 Cultists

[Dallas Drake]

@thingy: I have read that topic a few times while trying to figure out what I will do, its an excellent topic. I have most of those units, but I need the screamers and be lakor rules. Its a good list, but I take it that you will be summoning more horrors, plague bearers, and bloodthrister.

 

@Drake: That's a good list as well, might have to play test as well.

 

Thanks for the input everyone9please keep them coming). Would a full list of every model for chaos I have help?

Yeah, I suppose that would help. But it sounds like you have a good/big collection. You can get a feel for the dataslate rules by googling them & reading bloggers - 40k Daemons & Faeit 212 should have it all covered. I personally added Tzheralds on discs by buying Flaming Chariot kits, you get 3 disc Tzheralds plus 6 Screamers (minus a few tails you need to bits order), as well as 3 Flamers & 9 Horrors too which both come in handy.

 

When I run a summoning list I tend to go for Daemonettes, Horrors and Flamers, I find Daemonettes better than Bloodletters almost always. Only once have I sacrificed my Herald for a Bloodthirster and it wasn't really worth it (turn 4). A GUO in their deployment could be a real PITA though. I mainly stick to Primaris & Cursed Earth.

 

Right now I'm testing rocking the dual Biomancy Sorcerers though, Biomancy just seems awesome & reduces some of my anxiety about running 2W I4 assault sorcerers; plus my Tzeentch Daemons are all painting WIPs & I have to field fully painted models on Sat.

[Seahawk]

 

Btw, after some consideration, my list is now:

 

Crimson Slaughter:

• Juggerlord - MoK, PF / LC + Daemonhart / Sigil
• 7 Bikes - MoK + IoW, 2 Melta, Champ w/P.Axe
• Chaos Lord - MoN, Bike, PF / LC
• 5 Spawn - MoN
• Maulerfiend
• 6 Raptors - MoS + IoS, 2 Melta, Champ w/PF / LC
• Bastion + Quad Gun, Escape Hatch
• 10 Cultist
• 10 Cultist

Black Legion

• Chaos Lord - MoZ, Jetbike, PF / LC + Crucible
• 8 Warp Talons - MoZ
• 10 Cultists

 

If this is for the Michigan GT, that would be an illegal list unfortunately. I too am attending the MGT, but haven't decided how I want to play.

 

I'm sold as Daemons for the CAD, and then my AD I don't yet know. What sounds more useful:

 

- Mayhem Pack of three deepstriking, IWND helbrutes (and 212 more points of daemons), or

- Nurgle DP with wings, PA, black mace, 10 cultists, 6 Nurgle Bikers 

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

Btw, after some consideration, my list is now:

 

Crimson Slaughter:

• Juggerlord - MoK, PF / LC + Daemonhart / Sigil
• 7 Bikes - MoK + IoW, 2 Melta, Champ w/P.Axe
• Chaos Lord - MoN, Bike, PF / LC
• 5 Spawn - MoN
• Maulerfiend
• 6 Raptors - MoS + IoS, 2 Melta, Champ w/PF / LC
• Bastion + Quad Gun, Escape Hatch
• 10 Cultist
• 10 Cultist

Black Legion

• Chaos Lord - MoZ, Jetbike, PF / LC + Crucible
• 8 Warp Talons - MoZ
• 10 Cultists

 

If this is for the Michigan GT, that would be an illegal list unfortunately. I too am attending the MGT, but haven't decided how I want to play.

 

I'm sold as Daemons for the CAD, and then my AD I don't yet know. What sounds more useful:

 

- Mayhem Pack of three deepstriking, IWND helbrutes (and 212 more points of daemons), or

- Nurgle DP with wings, PA, black mace, 10 cultists, 6 Nurgle Bikers 

 

Not being a tournament type of guy-but I think 3 "three wound/hullpoint" Helbrutes and More daemons would probably be nastier than a Mace Prince, Cultists and nurgle bikers.

 

If they're shooting at the helbrutes, they aren't hitting your daemons and they're going to crawl up their ass and have a party.  If they're shooting at your daemons, your Helbrutes are going to smash their vehicles and monstrous creatures, and be a hindrance.

[hornywingythingy]

@thingy: I have read that topic a few times while trying to figure out what I will do, its an excellent topic. I have most of those units, but I need the screamers and be lakor rules. Its a good list, but I take it that you will be summoning more horrors, plague bearers, and bloodthrister.

Personally? I'd be summoning demonettes, seekers, flesh hounds, and only horrors from the portaglyph. The list needs more forward pressure to get the best, that's people's most common mistake with summoning, pulling down units to aid summoning, what you want is more threats to scare them, make them split their fire and take the heat off your deathstar.

 

I learnt a valuable lesson today, playing my guard army of all things, I lost the game (by two points) because I blobbed up, and therefore could only kill one target a turn, playing a far inferior on paper space marine list, running ironclad dreads and shooty terminators of all things. Close game, but had I not blobbed up, I could have dealt with the individual threats much easier. Deathstars are great but need stuff to stop them getting swamped. It's a valuable lesson, and I'm glad I learnt it in a friendly game not in a tournament!

[Xenith]

I have finally decided to get back into the gaming aspect of 40k, and have decided to enter a 1850 tournament in October with my chaos forces.  I have a good mix of chaos marines, and Daemons, but lack any forgeworld models.  Currently i am thinking CSM as my main with a daemon prince, 50 cultist(5 group of ten), 2x5 MON spawn, 1 heldrake, 3x mauler fiends, and defence line with quad gun.  The rest atm is unknown(probably Daemon allies). I have about two months to paint/practice with the force and despairingly need input.  Here are the rules of the tournament http://www.legionsgames.com/phpBB3/calendar.php?view=event&calEid=1760

 

Thanks for reading and your time. 

 

50 cultists? Swap 20 of them, or 10 and find 50pts from somewhere and make them a 2x 20 unit hellcult. Much, much more bang for your buck.

[Kierdale]

With the maulerfiends, everyone's taking them with cutters or tendrils?

[Uprising]

With the maulerfiends, everyone's taking them with cutters or tendrils?

I am thinking two with tendrils, and 0ne cutters because my pack is design to kill knights.  They all three charge, reduce it attack to one, and destroy it.  You may lose one mauler but it still better then losing half your army to it.  Thoughts? 

[Dallas Drake]

With the maulerfiends, everyone's taking them with cutters or tendrils?

Magma Cutters for me. Keeps them cheap & gives them an added punch.

[brother_contagion]

 

With the maulerfiends, everyone's taking them with cutters or tendrils?

I am thinking two with tendrils, and 0ne cutters because my pack is design to kill knights.  They all three charge, reduce it attack to one, and destroy it.  You may lose one mauler but it still better then losing half your army to it.  Thoughts? 

 

 

If you have a Nurgle Lord on a Bike ride with them, he could throw a Blight Grenade at it to reduce it to Initiative 1, so the Maulerfiends could kill it before it could strike back.

 

EDIT: Thinking of Concussive, disregard.

[Uprising]

After a few hours of research, here is my idea. 

 

1850 Tournament List

Main CSM HQ

 

Sorc: Force AX, Bike, ML 3, Spell Familiar, melta bomb

Total 150 pts

 

Troops

10 x cultists : Shotgun

Total 52 pts

10 x cultists: Shot gun

Total 52 pts

 

Fast attack

5x Spawn: MON

Total 180

5x Spawn: MON

Total 180

 

3 x Bikes: 2x Melta guns, MON

Total 108

 

Heavy Support

Mauler Fiend: 2x Lasher Tendrils

Total 135

Mauler Fiend: 2x Lasher Tendrils

Total 135

Mauler Fiend: 2x Lasher Tendrils

Total 135

 

 

CD Detachment

Hq

Tzeentch Herald: Disc, ML 3, Portalgyph,

Total 150

Tzeentch Herald: Disc, ML 3, Grimoire

Total 150

 

Troops

11 x Horrors

Total 99

11 x Horrors

Total 99

 

Fast Attack

9x Screamers

Total 225 pts

 

Total: 1850

 

Plan

Sorc hopefully get invisibility or shrouding, and will go with the bike squad(free wounds) and support my maulers and help hunt Armor. I will use the cultist/horrors to bunker/get warp charges.  Portagylph will be hidden best it can and generate more horrors for more warp charges for more summons. Spawns tar-pitt, mauler hunts Knight and other high AV targets.  Heralds go with screamers and become a death start.  Thoughts?  Thanks for reading.

[Kilofix]

Sounds like a good fast list but I still would do at least 1 Mauler with Cutter.

[Dallas Drake]

Sorcerer (L3, Familiar, Melta, Bike, Sigil - Biomancy)

Sorcerer (L3, Familiar, Melta, Bike, Sigil - Biomancy)

 

Cultists x 10

Cultists x 10

 

Spawn (MoN) x 5

Spawn (MoN) x 5

 

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

 

Allies

Be'Lakor

Horrors x 10

 

 

The list did well but it left me feeling very clear about how utterly one dimensional this edition of C:CSM is... Despite winning 2 and losing 1 I did not feel good about the list. The highlight was beating an Assault Terminator Ultramarines list 16-1 (Maelstrom) though tbh it wasn't a really strong list in the first place. The low point was the one loss, which was a complete tabling by Tyranids (yet again), Nids just seem to beat me with ease, his list took just 3 turns to pretty much wipe me out. He saved his 14 WC dice for when I cast the inevitable Be'Lakor Invisability & stopped it, then his Zoanthropes & Flyrants just dealt with the Maulerfiends with almost casual ease. Frustratingly the Gargoyles with poison (Toxin Sacs?) dealt with the Spawn like they were nothing (I mean they just utterly owned the Spawn), Rippers/Gaunts just screened his MCs from my assault etc. Not good.

 

C:CSM is just such a poor codex that I really don't think we can do 'competitive' in the sense that we can write a list that can beat a range of armies, I seem to have no real problem against SMs, IG, Orks or Necrons but against Eldar and Nids I get wasted (no Tau players in my area that I've met). In all honesty I was only able to win my games by getting a little lucky on the Maelstrom charts & because my opponents couldn't deal with 2 Maulerfiends & 10 Nurgle Spawn coming at them for a turn 2/3 charge. The army has no shooting too which is a slight problem, initially I thought about adding in Noise Marines because Cultists do nothing but they're points heavy & GW had to go and make the one decent anti bug weapon I would want (Sonic Blasters) into a Salvo weapon, plus Noise Marines mean playing static with either Huron to infiltrate them or MSU campers, not that TL-Devourers care one bit though. 

 

I feel like once opponents figure out how to handle the Spawn then I'm buggered. Biomancy was good but I'm still not sold that Sorcerers are an effective assault platform (not enough attacks, average initiative, low wounds), I just feel that in my list maybe there's too many points dedicated to psychics that can be put into other things (Khorne Heralds on Juggers with FHounds or Nurgle DPs/Lords spring to mind)... I might take another look at running dual Nurgle Daemon Princes or maybe Lords and rethink Daemon allies, I'm sorely tempted to add in Khorne Flesh Hounds but I just don't know...

 

Back to the drawing board.

[hornywingythingy]

Why are you running two sorcerers and be'lakor? I'd be taking one or the other TBH, you only gen 10+d6 warp charge, not enough to run three casters, I'd drop the sorcerers, bel as the CSM hq,

[incinerator950]

Is it wrong that I want the Culexus assassin to shut out Chaos sorc armies so hard?

[hornywingythingy]

Is it wrong that I want the Culexus assassin to shut out Chaos sorc armies so hard?

Is it wrong that I want the Culexus assassin to shut out Chaos sorc armies so hard?

You want even fewer options for us? ;)

[Prot]

Dallas,

 

I find Nids are very underestimated in Maelstrom. Other areas of the forum voice similar frustrations, not just CSM. But on average since the common 'competitive' CSM lists is usually banking on 2 or more Maulerfiends, this seems to play right into the Nid lists since it detracts from your shooting, and yet Nids are kings of Monstrous Creature armies... it doesn't make them unbeatable, but the Nids are much better in Maelstrom than most give them credit for. Just my two cents.