DeathRaven : Is Belial mandatory ?

[eurieus]

Hi fellow unforgivens ! 

 

I'm playing mostly a deathraven list, and my two HQ choices are Belial and a PFG libby on bike riding with a RW command squad. 

 

I obviously take Belial for super scoring terminators purpose, and the no scatter DS. My problem is, in most games, he's not that useful. He's not a CC beast, and even with the SS, can still get insta killed by a lucky sergeant with a power fist if you fail that damn 3++ ( which happen to me way to often ). 

 

Even his warlord trait is kinda lame, as they're way better options in the rulebook. I really feel at 190pts, he's just not worth it in the end. 

 

Now that everything is scoring, i was thinking about dropping Belial for a terminator librarian or maybe Ezekiel, and adding a scout squad and a small tac squad to meet the troop requirement of the combined arms detachement, giving more options for warlord traits, and a better psychic support for the whole army. 

 

What do you guys think ? 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Put a Sword and SB on Belial so he can challenge the PF sgts. That way he'll kill them before they swing.

Plus you have to remeber he's not a CC beast so he should be kicking the grunts while a sgt takes up a tough challenge.

I feel that if you switch to a standard librarian and scout you'll lose more than you win. because if scouts step out of cover they are toast.

[eurieus]

I tend to use sniper scouts, but i see your point. The idea behind the librarian was to gain more buffs/dakka for the army, as well as being more versatile with the warlords traits. I'll give another try to Belial and the sword/bolter combo. But i still think he's not that great for the point cost

[[TA]Typher]

7th ed helped belial a little. Place him in a unit of knights and you save him from insta-dying even in a challenge. If he's in front then he can tank S8 and 9 shots like a champ. I'd use the shield if you do however.

 

In 7th the wording has changed so belial can be T5 in a challenge.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Love these forums learn new stuff every day :)

[notmattlythgoe]

What about taking Sammie instead? He's a but more expensive, but he can zoom around the board and grab objectives pretty easily.

[eurieus]

Well, i don't have enough RWAS for Sammie, but i'm planning on buying more ( and the fact that Sammael model is great as well ) , and like Typher said, the DWK squad is a great squad for Belial, and that is what happened in my last game, but my poor placement of Belial during the assault phase made him toughness 4 instead of 5, so he died to a powerfist Wolf Guard....  my mistake :s 

[durdle-durdle]

You know, I typically used Belial to strike down a squad of heavy flamer termies (with a chainfist) and tank some wounds for them, but at some point, he always ends up failing a look out sir! roll and gets one shotted by a lascannon or something.  I think I'm going to have to try him with a bunch of knights, and see if the T5 is worth it.  I'm going to have to try knights more now, especially since everything can score.  I feel like there's not really a downside to it, just so long as you don't try and spam the max  amount of knights.

[Brother dean]

I thought this yesterday when I saw this but thought someone else would bring it up... Why not spend another 30 pts and use Azrael? He can be a hth monster, makes both DW and RW troops and has a 2+3+ field that covers units in 6" not just models in 3" like your Libby with PFG.

Only drawback is he needs a ride.
And yes, everything is scoring but super scoring termies AND bikes is nothing to sneeze at.

[shabbadoo]

7th ed helped belial a little. Place him in a unit of knights and you save him from insta-dying even in a challenge. If he's in front then he can tank S8 and 9 shots like a champ. I'd use the shield if you do however.

 

In 7th the wording has changed so belial can be T5 in a challenge.

It usually won't happen though, as when the Deathwing Knights and Belial charge (and sometimes even if they themselves are charged) the unit will very often break formation simply because of how the Assault movement rules work, such that Belial will lose the +1 Toughness.  So, the +1 Toughness bonus can apply, but it will not always apply.  Extra care in regard to moving the unit must be taken to maintain the +1 Toughness bonus on Belial.  If he has it though, he effectively gains Eternal Warrior against all but Str 10 attacks, which is pretty nice.

[eurieus]

I thought this yesterday when I saw this but thought someone else would bring it up... Why not spend another 30 pts and use Azrael? He can be a hth monster, makes both DW and RW troops and has a 2+3+ field that covers units in 6" not just models in 3" like your Libby with PFG.

 

Only drawback is he needs a ride.

And yes, everything is scoring but super scoring termies AND bikes is nothing to sneeze at.

 

I'm thinking on fielding Azrael when i get myself a LRC, puting him with a unit of knights or some hammernators can be a good thing, but it gets extremely expensive .... 

 

 

 

7th ed helped belial a little. Place him in a unit of knights and you save him from insta-dying even in a challenge. If he's in front then he can tank S8 and 9 shots like a champ. I'd use the shield if you do however.

 

In 7th the wording has changed so belial can be T5 in a challenge.

It usually won't happen though, as when the Deathwing Knights and Belial charge (and sometimes even if they themselves are charged) the unit will very often break formation simply because of how the Assault movement rules work, such that Belial will lose the +1 Toughness.  So, the +1 Toughness bonus can apply, but it will not always apply.  Extra care in regard to moving the unit must be taken to maintain the +1 Toughness bonus on Belial.  If he has it though, he effectively gains Eternal Warrior against all but Str 10 attacks, which is pretty nice.

 

Also this, putting Belial in the right place in assault can be very tricky sometimes ( that's why he died to a powerfist last time .... )

[[TA]Typher]

Belial isn't that great, but I find it pretty easy to keep him him formation. If you are already bunched up before assaulting it ahould be a cake walk. You move closest to closest.. Even if you roll high on your charge you'll still be touching every base on your knights afterward.

 

The trick comes in when you multi-assault or when you are assaulted by several units that can only touch certain models. Then things get more difficult, but in a straight combat you shouldn't have a problem keeping wall of shields on belial

[IanSturrock]

If you use Azrael, consider drop-podding him in. I would consider an 8 or 9 man tac squad with melta, combi-melta, and possibly Exekiel too (pyromancy, probably). You get some tank killing and two extra Objective Secured units in the enemy's face, plus Azzy and Zeke can go join DWK or DW squads next turn as needed.

[Flam]

If your list has an LR in it, Azzy could hitch a ride in that and wouldn't cost that much more than Belial. 

Or

Azzy and tact/vet squad with meltas or plasmas and pod can potentially ruin something expensive, but at a hefty cost.

 

This is kind of a slow, but someone suggested it to me once in 6th for adding Azzy to DW/RW.  You start off with Azzy attached to a squad of bikes and turn 1 DW assault a shooty terminator squad w/CML (maybe one CF and TH/SS) in front of the bike squad.  Azzy will leave the bikes and join the terminators and they can footslog or sit on an objective, while blasting out missiles.

 

I've also only used Belial with SB/Sword and it is okay.  Dw assault with Precision shot and the squad being able to split fire has always done some damage.

[MadMek83]

I've find that Belial is quite handy, not only he can deliver pin point DW assault but Fleshbane sword is actually pretty awesome... but he should be more of an beatstick for being Master of DeathWing. Now he is kinda one trick pony.

[eurieus]

I've find that Belial is quite handy, not only he can deliver pin point DW assault but Fleshbane sword is actually pretty awesome... but he should be more of an beatstick for being Master of DeathWing. Now he is kinda one trick pony.

 

Exactly, pinpoint DWA is great, but being master of the Deathwing is quite badass, he should be a bit more than he is :) 

[Pigshead]

If you use Azrael, consider drop-podding him in. I would consider an 8 or 9 man tac squad with melta, combi-melta, and possibly Exekiel too (pyromancy, probably). You get some tank killing and two extra Objective Secured units in the enemy's face, plus Azzy and Zeke can go join DWK or DW squads next turn as needed.

I've had real good results with drop pod Azzy, except against Eldar. Nothing I do works against them. But then my opponents seem to be 80% Chaos, 10% Eldar, 10% Orcs, and Dark Angels are born to slap Chaos about a bit.