Should they bring BFG back?

[Marshal Rohr]

A little of both, maybe. Because we've never had a real world situation involving "anything seen here" (motions to the tabletop 40K game), we don't have good real world examples to base things on, it's all supposition. Since there really isn't even a good "base line" in the fluff, any individual person's suppositions are as good as anyone else's as to what would or wouldn't work.

 

I was speaking more to the idea of "Space Marines wouldn't ever be effective boarding considering all this real world stuff" (even though we've seen just that in the fluff) than anything though.

Gotcha. It's fun to apply some real world stuff to our models and the like (JackDaws fire teams being modeled similarly, for example). But really it does come down to the scenario the author wants to paint.

[incinerator950]

As I understand it, teleportation technology is a swing or miss without beacons or Chapter Master plot armor.

 

As for boarding parties through breaching, it's entirely based on enemy defense contingencies, but if Marines can seemingly face them down on the planetside, defenses on cramped ships isn't any much different.

[daveNYC]

Teleportation also (I believe) requires you to have dropped the enemy's shields.  Not to mention any other problems caused by enemy warpcraft mucking up your jump.

 

The problem with boarding actions is that once they get on a ship that has lots of long narrow corridors, space marines lose a lot of the advantages that their mobility and protection give them.  They can't dodge, they can't hide behind cover, and they end up having to run straight ahead into the guns.  It can be done, but a good part of that is due to the dubious internal security of most ships.  If BFG naval ships were actually fully manned by professionals, as in they had a crew that could be given heavy weaponry and not immediately use it to shoot the officers, then boarding actions would probably be straight up suicide.

[incinerator950]

Yes, but breacher and boarding teams are still around according to FW.

 

It's all circumstance of course.

[*Furyou Miko]

The video mostly showed the Imperials closing to launch boarding torpedoes attached to tethers, which would be why they got so close...

[Chaeron]

Yes, but breacher and boarding teams are still around according to FW.

 

It's all circumstance of course.

 

Because they look awesome.

[Kol Saresk]

Teleportation also (I believe) requires you to have dropped the enemy's shields. Not to mention any other problems caused by enemy warpcraft mucking up your jump.

 

The problem with boarding actions is that once they get on a ship that has lots of long narrow corridors, space marines lose a lot of the advantages that their mobility and protection give them. They can't dodge, they can't hide behind cover, and they end up having to run straight ahead into the guns. It can be done, but a good part of that is due to the dubious internal security of most ships. If BFG naval ships were actually fully manned by professionals, as in they had a crew that could be given heavy weaponry and not immediately use it to shoot the officers, then boarding actions would probably be straight up suicide.

That's why they have things like power armour and breaching shields. It also helps that the ship's corridors are actually wide and tall enough to manuever tanks, erect barricades and all that fancy stuff, meaning there is room to dodge and there are defenses to use for cover. Angel Exterminatus and Dark Creed for sources. Vengeful Spirit works for showing the Breacher Squads.

 

Also, boarding parties are cost effective. All crews are mortal, so that single squad of genetically engineered killing machines walking around in what would be modern day tank armor while firing rocket-propelled armor-piercing high explosive rounds at defenders who are trained and expecting to fight boarders who have a fear of the vacuum, are going to cause a ton of damage before they get killed. And that's just one squad. Now make it ten. Or twenty.

 

Not only that, but if they reach something vital, like the enginarium, some well-placed sabotage i going to light that up. Or better yet, capture the bridge. Most of the mortals won't care who they serve as long as they live. Heck, 90% of the crew are press-ganged slaves anyways.

 

And you just saved yourself wasting the ammo it'd take to break open the hull and cause enough damage to cause a ship wide blackout.

 

Of course, boarding ships is a primary duty of the Space Marines. It is one of the things they specifically train for. So of course it exists outside the realms of our understanding an expectation. They exist outside our realms of understanding and expectation.

[Hyaenidae]

 

Astartes are the most dangerous weapon in void warfare. Period.

 

I'm pretty sure that the most dangerous weapon is a broadside of weapons packing megatons worth of damage into each shot.

 

Astartes can be quite effective at their role, but their role is limited, and they're vulnerable when being delivered.

 

 

Vast broadside to blow :cuss up? Hell yeah, it's effective.

 

Using Astartes to capture the ship, return it to service, and turn it (or it's payload) against your foes? That, my friend, is called a return on your investment.

 

Ask Huron. He knows.

[Allart01]

I would love to have Battlefleet Gothic back and playable.

Expecially in a 30k version, where I could crunch loyalist ships and cry "No one runs from the Conqueror!"

[Kol Saresk]

Hehe, here's something relevant to the idea of battle tactics in 40K from the recently published Talon of Horus. Its almost like A D-B is psychic or something.

 

 

Void wars play out in one of two ways. Both are slow, stately, and fought with patience as much as vitriol and fury.

 

The first is a performance of cold, calculating distance, where vessels unleash their weapons over unimaginable distances in a display of mathematical beauty. It is rare for Imperial ships to do battle by trading this long-range fire and forego the use of their powerful broadsides, but hardly unheard of. It does not play to the Legions' strengths, and is not favoured by most Imperial captains who wish to inflict their ships' full punishment upon their enemies.

 

 

I ended the quote there because it goes into describing the melee of void warfare and how boarding actions are launched to usually capture a ship since it is such a valuable prize.

 

But moral of the story: Broadsides kill faster than torpedo launches. And with great reward comes great risk.

[Xenith]

The problem with boarding actions is that once they get on a ship that has lots of long narrow corridors, space marines lose a lot of the advantages that their mobility and protection give them.  They can't dodge, they can't hide behind cover, and they end up having to run straight ahead into the guns.

What books have you been reading? Marines excel in cramped quarters where the enemy cannot bring their numbers to bear, and their explosive ammunition can take a much greater toll. Running straight ahead into guns is what power armour, and indeed, Space Marines were made for. If they expect heavier resistance, they bring boarding shields.

[Olis]

 

The problem with boarding actions is that once they get on a ship that has lots of long narrow corridors, space marines lose a lot of the advantages that their mobility and protection give them.  They can't dodge, they can't hide behind cover, and they end up having to run straight ahead into the guns.

What books have you been reading? Marines excel in cramped quarters where the enemy cannot bring their numbers to bear, and their explosive ammunition can take a much greater toll. Running straight ahead into guns is what power armour, and indeed, Space Marines were made for. If they expect heavier resistance, they bring boarding shields.

 

As the Space Marine game extolled - Cover is for the weak. ;)

[The Yak]

The answer to the thread title question is YES.

 

Not only because the game was superb and a joy to play but if they did bring it back, frater here could spend their time playing it rather than arguing with each other about crazy jibba jabba :)

[*Furyou Miko]

As the Space Marine game extolled - Cover is for the weak.

Uh, have you maybe noticed that power armour is superior to every kind of cover in the tabletop game, too? The only reason Marines ever take cover saves is against heavy anti-tank weapons, and you can bet your sweet hat that if a Marine passes a cover save, it's because the cover led the incoming shot to miss due to confused targetting.

[obs0l3te]

YES, BY THE DARK GODS YES BRING IT BACK!!!!

[Seahawk]

Expecially in a 30k version, where I could crunch loyalist ships and cry "No one runs from the Conqueror!"

 

Everyone keeps saying this, but realistically you can easily represent 30k in the current BFG rules.

 

- Loyalists and Imperials both use "chaos" ships from the Black Crusade fleet list so that they all have Space Marine crews.

- "Chaos marks" represent the different legion aspects.

- Sprinkle in Imperial ships, give them SM crew upgrades too.

 

And bam, you have 30k.

[Chaeron]

 

Expecially in a 30k version, where I could crunch loyalist ships and cry "No one runs from the Conqueror!"

 

Everyone keeps saying this, but realistically you can easily represent 30k in the current BFG rules.

 

- Loyalists and Imperials both use "chaos" ships from the Black Crusade fleet list so that they all have Space Marine crews.

- "Chaos marks" represent the different legion aspects.

- Sprinkle in Imperial ships, give them SM crew upgrades too.

 

And bam, you have 30k.

 

 

Profit for all!

[Hyaenidae]

 

Expecially in a 30k version, where I could crunch loyalist ships and cry "No one runs from the Conqueror!"

 

Everyone keeps saying this, but realistically you can easily represent 30k in the current BFG rules.

 

- Loyalists and Imperials both use "chaos" ships from the Black Crusade fleet list so that they all have Space Marine crews.

- "Chaos marks" represent the different legion aspects.

- Sprinkle in Imperial ships, give them SM crew upgrades too.

 

And bam, you have 30k.

 

 

Working on it.  ;)

[Mazryonh]

YES!

And make it three dimensional!

Didn't the original BFG codex come with a disclaimer saying that making the battlefield 3D on a 2D table is pretty difficult, and "only amounts to a range modifier"? Sure, 3D gameplay could allow ships to more accurate calculate just which aspect of a ship is hit by which attacks from which directions, but that sort of thing is best done with computer assistance.

Honestly, I just want to see this one time on the big screen. Or in a 40K/30K novel. Just once. Two ships coming alongside, and then the cannons firing almost simultaneously, tearing each other apart. Fire spitting into the void, hulls being rent asunder, shields flickering into nonexistence, bodies tumbling into the void only to be caught by the crossfire. All the while, the ships jerk and shake as though the universe itself was being torn in twain.

A D-B, you got my wish of a moon being turned into a meteor shower to come true. I got my fingers crossed you can pull this one off too. Or at least give it to Abnett.

Literature will never be able to do space battles justice in the era of computer animation. Even the greatest writers of all time could only write a scene each reader would comprehend differently. Only a visual representation with an awesome soundtrack can do a space battle justice.

As for this kind of sentiment, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's been done before; an entire game engine that could well do BFG battles justice.

Too bad GW hasn't noticed it.

[Vash113]

I loved Battlefleet gothic and would dearly like to see it brought back. Space combat has always been one of my favorites and yet it is so rarely well executed. Some new plastic kits and a little support and I think Battlefleet Gothic could really become quite popular and sell well but I doubt it will happen...

 

Though just imagine what GW could do with their new large kit support and plastic technology? Imagine a Space Hulk/Rock model or a model of the Phalanx...

[Olis]

Though just imagine what GW could do with their new large kit support and plastic technology? Imagine a Space Hulk/Rock model or a model of the Phalanx...

You speak words of temptation, brother.

[A D-B]

Honestly, I just want to see this one time on the big screen. Or in a 40K/30K novel. Just once. Two ships coming alongside, and then the cannons firing almost simultaneously, tearing each other apart. Fire spitting into the void, hulls being rent asunder, shields flickering into nonexistence, bodies tumbling into the void only to be caught by the crossfire. All the while, the ships jerk and shake as though the universe itself was being torn in twain.

A D-B, you got my wish of a moon being turned into a meteor shower to come true. I got my fingers crossed you can pull this one off too. Or at least give it to Abnett.

There was a pretty cool space battle cutscene in the game that shall not be named

Literature will never be able to do space battles justice in the era of computer animation. Even the greatest writers of all time could only write a scene each reader would comprehend differently. Only a visual representation with an awesome soundtrack can do a space battle justice.

I disagree, the pictures are always better in novels.

That Strike Cruiser is waaaay too close to the tau vessel. 40K ships fight at ranges of several hundred thousand kilometers, not several hundred.

Not... entirely. As cool as that style can be, it's not the entirety of 40K void warfare. It's certainly cool, and I've written it that way once or twice myself, as has Dan, but it's not the way all space battles go. In the same way battlefield warfare in the setting has much more in common with warfare in the Ancient World and the battles of both World Wars instead of a place like Fallujah in the 2000s, void war owes more the broadsides-and-boarding-parties Age of Sail than it does to anything else.

The reason most 40K artwork and writing shows ships lancing from afar and then running past one another at close range to hammer at each other isn't because everyone's getting it wrong, it's because that's Warhammer 40,000.

[Volt]

Honestly, I just want to see this one time on the big screen. Or in a 40K/30K novel. Just once. Two ships coming alongside, and then the cannons firing almost simultaneously, tearing each other apart. Fire spitting into the void, hulls being rent asunder, shields flickering into nonexistence, bodies tumbling into the void only to be caught by the crossfire. All the while, the ships jerk and shake as though the universe itself was being torn in twain.

A D-B, you got my wish of a moon being turned into a meteor shower to come true. I got my fingers crossed you can pull this one off too. Or at least give it to Abnett.

There was a pretty cool space battle cutscene in the game that shall not be named

Literature will never be able to do space battles justice in the era of computer animation. Even the greatest writers of all time could only write a scene each reader would comprehend differently. Only a visual representation with an awesome soundtrack can do a space battle justice.

I disagree, the pictures are always better in novels.

That Strike Cruiser is waaaay too close to the tau vessel. 40K ships fight at ranges of several hundred thousand kilometers, not several hundred.

Not... entirely. As cool as that style can be, it's not the entirety of 40K void warfare. It's certainly cool, and I've written it that way once or twice myself, as has Dan, but it's not the way all space battles go. In the same way battlefield warfare in the setting has much more in common with warfare in the Ancient World and the battles of both World Wars instead of a place like Fallujah in the 2000s, void war owes more the broadsides-and-boarding-parties Age of Sail than it does to anything else.

The reason most 40K artwork and writing shows ships lancing from afar and then running past one another at close range to hammer at each other isn't because everyone's getting it wrong, it's because that's Warhammer 40,000.

I never recalled that happening in many BFG games. Rather ships duked it out at (what was in game terms) of several hundred thousand kilometers, then closing or retreating depending on the weapon batteries being used. The idea of ships closing to start rubbing each other's noses just seems like a bad trope carried over from Star Wars to 40k. BFG did a fairly good job of brining sensibility back to the table.

[Lucien Eilam]

I never recalled that happening in many BFG games.

 

You were playing it wrong. What did you think the Ramming rules were for?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

If they brought BFG back my wallet would weep.

 

Still have the rules and everything at the local club, and two whole fleets. So I get some BFG action from time to time.

 

Miss my Ork pirate fleet.