Culexes Assassin versus Gate of Infinty

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

[frostbite]

This needs to be FAQ-ed. Personally, I think that a unit which ends up within 12" of the assassin, whether by scatter or design, should mishap. It seems to be the simplest resolution, and the most in keeping with the fluff.

[Raeven]

Where in the rules are you told to mishap when you scatter within area such as this?

 

There are none. If you were meant to mishap, the rules should state as much. Scatter caused mishaps in this instance are entirely RAI.

[Morollan]

Except it didn't. At no point during the deep strike process has a unit moved within 12" of the Culexus

So you didn't place the mini within 12" of the Culexes, when you placed the mini within 12" of the Culexes.

No, the unit did not move within 12" of the assassin because the unit is not present on the table. Placing the first model is not moving the unit. Indeed the DS rules even specifically say that you are placing the model at the intended location but the final position is determined by the scatter dice.

[Gentlemanloser]

First line Derp, please ignore!

"place one model of the unit anywhere on the table <snip> and roll for scatter to determine the models final position"

The 'final' implies that placing the model counts as the 'original' position. The point you *wanted* it to appear in. At all times, models placed using Deep Strike count as having moved.

The Culexes isn't worried about final or starting positions. Just that a model that counts as moving was placed within 12" of it.

Which the original (and potentially the final) position was.

Which would stop the Gate dead in its tracks, immediately.

Of course, this all needs clarification from GW. And we're really just clutching at straws.

Edit: For example, if a unit started outside 12", but moved *through* and ended over 12" away, their Blessings would go down immediately. Regardless of where they ended.

It might not matter in most occasions, as they would come back on when they left.

But if that Blessing (like Levitation - or the old Bangel Wings) enabled movement, it would just stop. How that effects said movement isn't explained.

[Raeven]

The ultimate problem is, no where does the rule state that scattering within the null field would cause a mishap.  It's a pretty specific rule, that should be pointed out if it was intended to be played that way.  Similar to the argument that vehicles didn't get cover saves from Grav weapons...which was debunked.

[Morollan]

First line Derp, please ignore!

 

"place one model of the unit anywhere on the table <snip> and roll for scatter to determine the models final position"

 

The 'final' implies that placing the model counts as the 'original' position.  The point you *wanted* it to appear in.  At all times, models placed using Deep Strike count as having moved.

 

The Culexes isn't worried about final or starting positions. Just that a model that counts as moving was placed within 12" of it.

 

Which the original (and potentially the final) position was.

 

Which would stop the Gate dead in its tracks, immediately.

 

 

Any blessing or malediction psychic powers affecting a unit immediately cease to be in effect if the unit moves within 12" of a Culexus Assassin or vice versa. The unit has not moved until the unit is on the table. One model is not the unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

Arriving by Deep Strike counts as movement.

 

Placing the first model is the units *initial* position.  After scatter is their final.

 

As said with the Levitation example, The Culexes doesn't care where you start, how you move into or through, or where you end.

 

If at any point of your movement you become within 12", any Blessing immediately stop.

 

Moro, what would you do with a unit using Levitation, that clips the bottom of a Culexes 12" bubble at the midpoint of their move?

[Morollan]

Arriving by Deep Strike counts as movement.

 

Placing the first model is the units *initial* position.  After scatter is their final.

 

As said with the Levitation example, The Culexes doesn't care where you start, how you move into or through, or where you end.

 

If at any point of your movement you become within 12", any Blessing immediately stop.

 

Moro, what would you do with a unit using Levitation, that clips the bottom of a Culexes 12" bubble at the midpoint of their move?

If the Levitating unit was silly enough to make itself move through the Culexus bubble then I would indeed stop their movement when they touch the bubble and raise my eyebrows at the silliness of their controlling player. But I don't really see the similarity. With Levitate you physically move your unit from A to B, via the intervening points. That's not the case with Deep Striking. The unit is removed from the table. It does not reappear on the table until the DS process has been fully resolved. Again, one model (which is essentially a marker and could readily be replaced with a counter or token) is not the unit. The unit has not moved within 12" of the Culexus until erm...the unit has moved within 12" of the Culexus, which is at the end of the Deep Strike process when the unit is actually on the table again.

[Gentlemanloser]

Again, one model (which is essentially a marker and could readily be replaced with a counter or token) is not the unit. The unit has not moved within 12" of the Culexus until erm...the unit has moved within 12" of the Culexus

 

Lets go back to Leviatate then.

 

Would you allow Levitate to continue if just *one* model clipped the Culexes bubble?

 

One model isn't the Unit.

 

Edit:  What would happen if we look at just 'after scatter' and only one, or half the unit has scattered within 12"?  Does the Culexes' power not work as the 'unit' isn't within12"?

 

How do we measure 'unit' distances?  Whole thing, or at least one model?  What happens to an objective where only a single model of a Troop unit is within distanec?  Can they no longer Score?

 

 

 

If the Levitating unit was silly enough to make itself move through the Culexus bubble then I would indeed stop their movement when they touch the bubble

 

Does the *entire* unit need to be within 12" of a Culexes for its ability to work?

 

If so, that's a very easy way to cheese it and make it practically useless...

[Toldavf]

Nope just one of them.

[Morollan]

Gentlemanloser - the point is not how many of the unit are inside the bubble, it's whether the unit is actually on the table. In the case of a Levitating unit, they are on the table at all times. A deep striking unit is not on the table and therefore cannot be within 12" of the assassin until after they arrive. I'm not sure what argument you have against this. The unit simply isn't there and no distances can be measured to or from the unit until the unit actually arrives.

[Gentlemanloser]

Part of the unit is on the table though.

 

Why does the whole unit need to be on the table?

 

If part of a unit touching the bubble is enough to trigger it, then part of the unit in the bubble is enough.  Regardless of where the other members of the unit are.

[Morollan]

Part of the unit is on the table though.

 

Why does the whole unit need to be on the table?

 

If part of a unit touching the bubble is enough to trigger it, then part of the unit in the bubble is enough.  Regardless of where the other members of the unit are.

 

On that basis presumably if that one model causes a mishap only that model suffers the results of it as the rest of the unit isn't there? It's not a gradual process. A Deep Striking unit does not appear one model at a time. The first model is just a placeholder to determine where the unit arrives. The unit has not moved within 12" until the whole unit appears.

 

Leaving aside that point, what exactly are the mechanics for one model arriving via Deep Strike whilst the rest of the unit don't?

[Brother Casman]

What an interesting grey area - one to be avoided if possible. I think, in the interest of actually playing the game, I would suggest that my opponent's Gating unit reduce their scatter enough to stay out of my Culexus Assassin bubble. Clearly, the power ends before they enter the bubble, so they'd leave the Gate earlier than they expected.

[Gentlemanloser]

On that basis presumably if that one model causes a mishap only that model suffers the results of it as the rest of the unit isn't there?

Mishaps are timed to occer after scatter. Not immediately.

It's not a gradual process. A Deep Striking unit does not appear one model at a time. The first model is just a placeholder to determine where the unit arrives. The unit has not moved within 12" until the whole unit appears.

That's not correct. If the Deep Stiking unit has a *final* postition, it must have had a starting position. It counts as moving, even at its starting position.

Leaving aside that point, what exactly are the mechanics for one model arriving via Deep Strike whilst the rest of the unit don't?

There aren't any, as it wasn't posible when the BRB was written.

There's no way to interrupt a Deep Strike in the BRB.

It would seem a Culexes can though. And that just isn't explained. Hence this topic.

[Morollan]

 

It's not a gradual process. A Deep Striking unit does not appear one model at a time. The first model is just a placeholder to determine where the unit arrives. The unit has not moved within 12" until the whole unit appears.

 

That's not correct.  If the Deep Stiking unit has a *final* postition, it must have had a starting position.  It counts as moving, even at its starting position.

 

 

 

It doesn't have a starting position. The rulebook says it has a "position where you would like it to arrive". It either arrives in that position or in a different position depending on the scatter dice. There is no movement between the two. In any event they only count as having moved in the shooting phase, which is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hah!  Sloppy rules strike again!

 

So in the Shooting Phase, they count as moving, and the Blessing goes down (Which no longer matters now...).  But in the Psychic Phase, where they actually do move, they don't count as moving, so even though they appear within 12" of a Culexes, they don't trigger the ability, becuase they didn't 'move within 12"'...

 

Oh GW...  When will you learn.

[Raeven]

Another issue.  Deep Strike rules detail what causes a mishap.  Landing within null fields and such aren't listed among those possibilities.

[Kristoff]

Another issue. Deep Strike rules detail what causes a mishap. Landing within null fields and such aren't listed among those possibilities.

Sometimes other things will cause a Mishap, too, but they specifically call out doing so.

 

So I guess this mostly all lies on how long the Blessing lasts, yes? Is it only till it gets you to Deep Striking position, or does it carry through until the unit materializes on the field?

 

Answer that question, and you answer this one.

[Raeven]

That's my point. Since it isn't listed in the rules of things that specifically prevent the deep strike of models within a certain range, there is no mishap from scatter. If mishap were to be the intended consequence, it should be listed in the special rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

So if the Blessing does stop, and the unit effect doesn't mishap, what happens to them?

 

Do they just not travel at all and return to their starting position?  Are they removed as casualties as they have been removed from the board, can't be placed, and don't re enter ongoing reserves as they don't mishap?

 

GW haven't thought through the ramifications of the new Culexes' ability.

[Raeven]

They arrive on the board using the rules for Deep strike.  So, you cannot place the units within 12" of the assassin.  Scatter is not placement of the model, that's already happened.  After that, wherever they scatter, they scatter.

 

There is no basis in the rules to support making these null fields impassable terrain.  

[Gentlemanloser]

Why can't the Culexes *stop* the Gate, before the Gate ends?  Gate is stopped 'immediately' the instant a single mini for a unit comes within 12" of it.  That has to be before the power finishes normally.

 

What happens when a Gate is stopped before it finishes?

 

Can *any* Psychic power be stopped before it is finished?  Or does the Culexes power simply not work.

[Quozzo]

What an interesting grey area - one to be avoided if possible. I think, in the interest of actually playing the game, I would suggest that my opponent's Gating unit reduce their scatter enough to stay out of my Culexus Assassin bubble. Clearly, the power ends before they enter the bubble, so they'd leave the Gate earlier than they expected.

Not to complicate things, although that is what I'm after What if the scatter distance went through the 12" bubble and out the other side, so the final destination is not within 12" of the culexus?