Sergeant Upgrades experiment : a surprising conclusion.

[knife&fork]

For the past 6 months or so I've been trying various upgrades on sergeants. In just about every game I've tried sneaking in a different power weapon, combi weapon, dual pistols, a  melta bomb or storm/combat shield. Pretty much everything except power lances, grav weapons (since I play BA) and ridiculously expensive combos like SS + TH. 

 

So far one piece of equipment stands out, one that sees use almost every time and never feels wasted. No matter if it's a scout, tac or dev sergeant it will do something in a game. That 5 pt melta bomb will sometimes pay off spectacularly. The lucky roll on a combat shield or combi-melta might sway a fight in your favour and powerfists would be on every sergeant if they weren't so expensive. 

In the end though no other piece of gear have performed as consistently as the humble combi-flamer.

 

http://i.imgur.com/dXZeo8R.jpg

 

It feels weak and underpowered in comparison to many things you get for the same pts but yet they deliver every time I take one.... :) 

[incinerator950]

I want the Purge poison flamer templates to be updated already.

[Captain Idaho]

I suppose it isn't a terrible idea to have a combi flamer on a Devastator squad just in case Kroot come outflanking.

[minigun762]

Interesting topic. I'm surprised by the conclusion as I would've imagined the melta bomb as the winner.

 

What is it about the combi flamer that has been so successful for you?

[knife&fork]

Interesting topic. I'm surprised by the conclusion as I would've imagined the melta bomb as the winner.

 

What is it about the combi flamer that has been so successful for you?

 

A meltabomb can pay off really well, but I hardly get to use them. Monsters kill you before you have the chance and you don't see that many walkers or land raiders where the krak or melta gun doesn't do the job. That single meltabomb is quite unreliable too when you do need it. 

 

Combi-flamer on the other hand always seems to get a shot off. There are many targets of opportunity for a template.

Outflankers or infiltrators. Pushing a non-meq unit off an objective. Making the opponent miss a charge thanks to a wall of death casualty. Open topped vehicles. Buildings and bunkers. Forcing saves on clustered MEQ or TEQ... the list goes on.  

[UltraTacSgt]

How have power weapons worked out for you in Tactical squads?

 

I am planning to use a Tactical squad in a Rhino with a flamer as an aggressive squad to move up and try to push an enemy troop off their objective. Do you feel a combi-flamer would be more useful than a PW of some sort in that application?

[Emperors Immortals]

Its funny you say this, I've started taking combiflamers on my BA and CSM for the same reason there hardly ever wasted points. I always take melts bombs though.

 

Have you ever though it was a waste of points? You run fairly irregular lists it is interesting the flamer works and is so underrated.

[Kaedes Nex]

Would a flamer in the tactical squad be a better option? Or perhaps be taken in addition to the Combi-Flamer?

 

I take assault marines just because you can pay 100 points for 2A, 2 Flamers and Melta Bombs with Jump Packs. That's better point value per flamer and per attack on the charge for the job you need them to do compared to tacticals.

 

Since you play BA, what about Hand Flamers or Infernus Pistols? Do you activate the Combi-Flamer on Overwatch? I can't imagine it being more useful than other combis or a different assault weapon on the charge, especially because BA have naturally higher attacks and will more easily chew through tarpits without the need of flamer templates compared to other loyalists.

[knife&fork]

How have power weapons worked out for you in Tactical squads?

I am planning to use a Tactical squad in a Rhino with a flamer as an aggressive squad to move up and try to push an enemy troop off their objective. Do you feel a combi-flamer would be more useful than a PW of some sort in that application?

Power weapons are kinda meh since tactical and dev squads don't do well in close combat. Generally I find that you need more than one character in your list before it's justified to put power weapons on the fragile 1W sergeant. The fist has great utility and gives you some results from the 2A base, but as mentioned the price is too high for something you only get to use now and then. Combi-flamer works just as well on a non-vet sergeant. No need to pay the vet tax just to justify your wargear.

On a scout sergeant it performed better but there's little reason to run CC scouts.

Yes, I think you'll get more use out of a second template. The power weapon certainly won't hurt, but if you're deciding between one or the other I'd rather go with combi-flamer + melta bomb or combi-flamer + dozer blade for the rhino.

Its funny you say this, I've started taking combiflamers on my BA and CSM for the same reason there hardly ever wasted points. I always take melts bombs though.

Have you ever though it was a waste of points? You run fairly irregular lists it is interesting the flamer works and is so underrated.

Funny how things like this tend to surface at the same time Melta bombs are great but I usually have dedicated anti AV/MC. Not a bad thing if you have 5 pts to spare.

Yes, when I've taken them on ICs. I have a chaplain with combi-flamer from back when they always had BP + crozius base. Considering the squad he rolls with (DC) and it's never felt like a good purchase.

Would a flamer in the tactical squad be a better option? Or perhaps be taken in addition to the Combi-Flamer?

I take assault marines just because you can pay 100 points for 2A, 2 Flamers and Melta Bombs with Jump Packs. That's better point value per flamer and per attack on the charge for the job you need them to do compared to tacticals.

Since you play BA, what about Hand Flamers or Infernus Pistols? Do you activate the Combi-Flamer on Overwatch? I can't imagine it being more useful than other combis or a different assault weapon on the charge, especially because BA have naturally higher attacks and will more easily chew through tarpits without the need of flamer templates compared to other loyalists.

The flamer is better because it's 5 pts less and not on a character I don't think the combi-flamer is something to base your squad on, more like an added capability to whatever role they are supposed to fill. When it comes to single use wargear I tend to pop them at first opportunity even if it's a less than optimal situation. Better to use them than lose them.

Yes, vanilla marines get a great deal on flamer assault marines in case you want cheap and mobile anti horde. Assault sergeants can't take combi-weapons though, that's why I haven't mentioned them. BA assault marines are a bit of a special case and not straight up comparable to C:SM or CSM equivalents like tacs, devs and scouts are.

I find the hand flamers and infernus pistols overcosted in 7th. I don't like to put the sergeant in front.

Infernus pistols are expensive and have very short range, you almost never get to shoot them more than once even on jump infantry.

Hand flamers have a similar range issue but also suffer from the fact that they are S3 AP6. Not only are they weaker but they belong to a different wound pool. If you have more than one template weapon in your squad you probably want to shoot them first. This makes it very likely that when it's turn to shoot that hand flamer you'll have less models under the template.

I prefer a plasma pistol to any of those two and if I had the choice, grav.

[SyNidus]

Funny you should mention this. I've found that a really good combination for my tacs has been Gravgun and Combi-Flamer precisely because you're almost always guaranteed to have targets of opportunity.

[knife&fork]

What do you use for heavy weapons?

[minigun762]

I had a thought.

Taking a combi flamer Veteran Sergeant, give him a single lightning claw and run Salamander chapter tactics. Master craft the claw and you have a formidable squad leader.

 

The cheaper option would be a non Veteran Sergeant without the claw but adding a MC'd melta bomb.

[knife&fork]

Sounds capable, but it's also 35 pts worth of upgrades on a 1W model. 

 

Are you even allowed to mastercraft grenades? I thought they counted as wargear rather than weapons? 

[minigun762]

Sounds capable, but it's also 35 pts worth of upgrades on a 1W model.

 

Are you even allowed to mastercraft grenades? I thought they counted as wargear rather than weapons?

Good question on the melta bomb. I'd assume you could but I could also read it that you wouldn't be allowed to either.

 

As to being worth it, as you pointed out the combi weapon will be used early so the risk of dying without being able to shoot it is small. As to any kind of close combat weapon being worthwhile, I think it comes down to how close you're going to get to the opponent. Flamer range is awful close.

[knife&fork]

It's not so much about the sergeant being good at something, more about what those points could buy instead. 

 

If you are running salamanders I'd imagine that the combi-melta (or combi-grav) is a lot more appealing with the free MC? 

[Azash]

I have used combi flamers on some of my sargeants since 5th. Although I arrived at the conclusion from a different direction.

 

My realization how often do you get to fire a flamer twice. In the majority of my games I would get one use on my flamer. Then I would either break the target or be charged by another unit. On the flip side a second shot with a melta gun or plasma gun comes in pretty handy.

 

So my squads evolved to be combi-flamer and melta gun. When 6th and wall of death came it made them all that much better. My only issue is with the new codex you pay 5pts for a flamer and 10 pts for a combi flamer. I get why but I also think a combi shouldn't cost more than the weapon itself.

 

The other aspect is combi weapons on a sarg means you have no issue of putting them out front. Your not gonna run a vet upgrade on a combi sarg so you can put them out front to insure you get them in optimal range. Once they use the combi especially now that challenge wounds carry over sargs are just another marine unless your running a melta bomb.

[MagicMan]

Last edition/codex i was rocking the Combi's all day and all night, this edition i've been finding i'm getting a lot more use out of power weapons.

 

 

I always hated the idea of spending so many points on a 1 W model, in a shooty squad, but especially in Maelstrom missions i've found things devolve into a grindy mess between the two armies. And in these cases, the power weapon gives you more Tactical options and allows you to hack your way out.

 

Just my two pennies.

[Gideon999]

I am a huge fan of the combi-flamer as well.   As one person above said, its pretty rare to get more than 1 shot out of any special weapon, so the combi being single use is generally not too big a downside.    And often the squads that are taking them are either dedicated anti-infantry squads, so the extra template is awesome at ensuring they do their job, or they are objective campers where I will use it for wall of death or if something gets close enough to actually walk out a bit and use it to full effect.

 

Its the most reliable combi weapon as you will almost always end up using it somewhere.   A plasma or melta will be good against certain targets, but a flamer can put wounds on virtually anything (even 3+ armies will take some casualties as they sheer number of wounds the flamer can put out will cause a few failed saves).

 

I think it mainly comes down to probability.   IE - a flamer doesnt roll to hit (removes one die roll) and can force upwards to half a dozen saves if you get luck.   Plus the sheer number of targets that it can hurt is high, coupled with ignores cover makes it very, very flexible.

[Cornelias]

Assuming your only going to get one shot of with your squad's special weapon is it not still better to choose the flamer and take either the melta,plasma,grav as the combi saving you between 5-10 points per squad? I'd argue the flamer is also of more use if you do get that chance to fire it again as it can be used both offensively and defensively..

[incinerator950]

I'm debating which to give my Chaos/Pm/NM squads.

[minigun762]

I'm debating which to give my Chaos/Pm/NM squads.

PMs normal work best with plasma thanks to integrated FnP.

 

That said, a PM squad would be super evil against S3 T3 units. Being wounded on 6's with a 3+ and FnP is super durable and S4 poisoned does nasty things to light infantry.

 

Noise Marines have doom sirens so that's my choice.

[incinerator950]

Yeah, but I don't intend to run my NMs to maximize their potential for a DS.

 

Also because I'm a cheap bastard on a tight budget, so I'm going to be using kitbashed Blastmasters made from the Chaos squad heavy bolters.

[minigun762]

Yeah, but I don't intend to run my NMs to maximize their potential for a DS.

 

Also because I'm a cheap bastard on a tight budget, so I'm going to be using kitbashed Blastmasters made from the Chaos squad heavy bolters.

 

Ahh, if you're going with a more "sit and shoot" squad, I'd probably leave the combi at home, as none of them match up that well with either the sonic blasters (which force you to remain static) or the blastmaster (which wants you to hang back at 48")

[Ming]

I agree. For generic marine sergeants, combiweapons have been the best for me.

[knife&fork]

Assuming your only going to get one shot of with your squad's special weapon is it not still better to choose the flamer and take either the melta,plasma,grav as the combi saving you between 5-10 points per squad? I'd argue the flamer is also of more use if you do get that chance to fire it again as it can be used both offensively and defensively..

 

Sound reasoning, but if I do get the chance to shoot the special twice (which I think happens quite a bit with a plasma or grav) I'd rather have the stronger gun left. And if I only take a combi plasma for instance I wouldn't even want to shoot it on overwatch because I have a better chance of killing myself than the enemy.