40kChrista Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Hey all, My iPad version of the Black Legion supplement just updated... mostly it's all the same. i.e. I believe all the point values are the same, Warlord Traits are the same, Relics look the same as well. However, the allies piece has been cleaned up a bit... they follow the same matrix for CSM in the book, in addition they may ally with CSM and treat each other as Battle Brothers. I would also bet that Crimson Slaughter will get similar treatment as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 That's nice to know. Always good to see that GW honors their updates for the digital customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Both the e-books (BL & CS) got an update on August 19th to bring them in line with the current edition. Nice one for the heads up or I wouldn't have looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Does that mean us with the hard copy get an faq the normal way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Nope. Those with the hard copies get to write the faqs in old school style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 That's nice to know. Always good to see that GW honors their updates for the digital customers. would be great to see an FAQ for the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Sent you a PM about the matrix daboarder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Cheers Bad precedent on GWs part though, we said this would happen and were assured that it wouldnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 They were supposed to happen at the same time really but hey, ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Question about something related and important, is there anything added about how it all works out with Unbound lists and detachments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Question about something related and important, is there anything added about how it all works out with Unbound lists and detachments? Just like I said above... that Black legion follows the same allies matrix for CSMs, in addition they may ally with CSMs and treat each other as Battle Brothers. For an Unbound list, once you pick your warlord... that faction is then considered your Primary Detachment as far as interaction of Battle Brothers. It doesn't seem to have any other bearing on an Unbound list other than that. It's just simplified with the clarification of Allies in the BL Supp. You could have a BL "primary" with CSM or CSM "primary" with BL, and since they're Battle Brothers all those buffs and psychic powers will work on the other units, same with transports. Since there was no mention of CS, I would imagine that both CSM supplements will not be allowed to ally with each other at given the new wording in the BL update. But that's just a guess. Which is a shame because it does mention CS doing some work for the Warmaster in the CS Supplement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Okay, well I could be wrong, but IIRC the problem with the Unbound(before) was that as written, you couldn't declare a primary detachment, or something like that and so there was an issue using the Chaos Supplements since they required a "detachment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I was under the impression that now BL and CS were able to mix and match freely with each other as they are all part of the same faction in the same way that Farsight and Iyanden could from their respective dexs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The way I understand it is that RAI says yes, but RAW said no because each supplement has to be the primary detachment and nothing allows for them to exist in mixed detachments. Which now that I think about it and the way Grimgorn responded, that still hasn't been fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Its a mess In one part unbound implies that you can have multiple "detachments" and in another it mentions that detachments are optional and unbound has none Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 unless house ruled localy, I would advise people to stay away from multi detachment chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Okay, well I could be wrong, but IIRC the problem with the Unbound(before) was that as written, you couldn't declare a primary detachment, or something like that and so there was an issue using the Chaos Supplements since they required a "detachment". Looking over page 117 in the BRB, it doesn't really seem that confusing... if you're using Unbound, whatever faction your warlord is in is your "primary detachment". It's only a "primary detachment" in so far as rules go, i.e. Battle Brothers. They say "for all rules purposes", but your Unbound army doesn't receive any Command Benefits and aren't really a part of any Detachment at all. It seems to be a way to make sure you're still getting your Battle Brothers even though you don't receive Objective Secured. For example, I want to make the Chosen of Abaddon for my Black Legion, so I would have to run Unbound and 4 differently marked Chaos Lords in either appropriately marked Chosen squads or Cult squads. I would probably want to run another Lord or Sorc for my Warlord, or maybe the Big Bad himself, and since that would be from Black Legion my "Primary Detachment" would be BL. Even though my "Primary Detachment" doesn't really exist, it's just there for rules such as Battle Brothers. I wouldn't receive any Command Benefits, but I probably wouldn't need any because I'm running 4-5 Lords. I can see where the confusion comes from. It's on the next page, 118, that describes Detachments and that they're optional. Like daboarder mentioned. That supplements are part of their parent faction, and that the Allied Detachment chart on 122 says that your allies must be from a different faction. I could take Crimson Slaughter to fill out the rest of my force in my Unbound army, as it stands... they wouldn't be Battle Brothers. So I would probably want to use normal CSM to make sure Battle Brothers is still viable. I know there has been talk that since CS is from CSM that Battle Brothers should still apply, but with how the allies are listed in the BL Supp. they are only Battle Brothers with CSM and Chaos Demons... not Crimson Slaughter. At least, that's how I'm reading it now. I could be wrong, but that seems to be right I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Just thought I'd put this here... From: Malisteen Open your Crimson Slaughter and/or Black Legion supplement, and identify all of the unit entries. You will find that there are none. Yes, Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion are both part of the Chaos Space Marine faction, but you cannot select units from them in a mixed detachment because there are no units from them to select. Instead the CSM supplement rules take the form of modifications made to CSM detachments. "All units in a Crimson Slaughter detachment must" do this or "One unit of chaos terminators in a Black Legion detachment that includes Abaddon the Despoiler may" do that. Basically, the supplement changes are made to entire CSM detachments, not to individual CSM units. You select a detachment of Chaos Space Marines, and then select whether the entire detachment is a 'Black Legion' or 'Crimson Slaughter' detachment, or neither. Then you select units for the detachment from Codex: Chaos Space Marines using the restrictions and rules modifications of the supplement you chose, if any. If the entire detachment uses a supplement, then the rules and restrictions of that supplement apply to the entire detachment - including vet tax, vet ban, and alternative artifact list. The new detachment rules are not a 'get out of vet tax' free card for Black Legion, nor are they an invitation to include a mace prince within a Crimson Slaughter detachment. Since all colors of CSM are the same faction, however, you may include an army with, say, two combined arms detachments, one of which you apply a supplement to, and the other you apply the other supplement to, or none at all. Likewise, until some ruling says otherwise, you can declare any CSM formation to use one of the supplements, since formations are their own detachments. This lets you have fear causing fallen or helcults for example. Note that you can make fallen troops by applying the black legion supplement, but that this doesn't actually do anything for them, since they're scoring anyway now, and since the the units are from a formation and not from a combined arms or allied detachment, they will not gain objective secured. On the subject of allied detachments, there's considerable contention as to whether you can take an allied detachment of a different flavor of chaos marine if your main army is already of the chaos marine faction. Normally an allied detachment must be of a different faction. However the supplements specifically state they can 'ally with' the parent book and vice versa. That said, 'allying with' does not necessarily mean 'may be taken as an allied detachment for'. And letting one supplement primary take an allied detachment of the other supplement is even more murky - the interpretations that would allow it (ie, you take a CSM allied detachment, then apply the other supplements rules to that detachment) would also allow supplement primary armies to take allied detachments of themselves! If you want to stay completely kosher, stick to combined arms detachments for now, and save allied detachments for daemons or the like. An interesting problem is raised by unbound armies. In an unbound army, all the forces you take from each individual faction are collected into a single detachment of that faction. As a result, by a strict reading of the rules, this means that in an unbound army all of your CSM units that are not within a formation (which still count as their own, separate detachments), must all use the same supplement, or none at all, making unbound armies less flexible than battleforged armies in this regard. On the one hand, it means you aren't getting around your restrictions for free, which is good. On the other hand, it really doesn't fit with the entire purpose of unbound armies, which is bad. However, games of 40k using unbound armies require considerable advance communication and cooperation by participating players, much like Apocalypse games, so I'm confident players can work out an individual fix for this problem on a case by case basis with your opponent. Note that the fine details of the 8th edition detachment rules are rather murky a this point (don't get me started on what detachment conjured daemons are part of!), so all of the above is subject to change should we see any form of official clarification or errata to the contrary. Found it. This is what I was thinking of. Apologies for looking like a bumbling idiot. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Nearly had a heart attack when i saw the title, i though myself" WOOT!!!!, GW as rendered Black Legion usefull via updates?!, Hell yeah"...oh god can i be gulible at times... Going back to play Space engineers, the Planet Killer isn't gonna ingineer itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Just thought I'd put this here... From: Malisteen Open your Crimson Slaughter and/or Black Legion supplement, and identify all of the unit entries. You will find that there are none. Yes, Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion are both part of the Chaos Space Marine faction, but you cannot select units from them in a mixed detachment because there are no units from them to select. Instead the CSM supplement rules take the form of modifications made to CSM detachments. "All units in a Crimson Slaughter detachment must" do this or "One unit of chaos terminators in a Black Legion detachment that includes Abaddon the Despoiler may" do that. Basically, the supplement changes are made to entire CSM detachments, not to individual CSM units. You select a detachment of Chaos Space Marines, and then select whether the entire detachment is a 'Black Legion' or 'Crimson Slaughter' detachment, or neither. Then you select units for the detachment from Codex: Chaos Space Marines using the restrictions and rules modifications of the supplement you chose, if any. If the entire detachment uses a supplement, then the rules and restrictions of that supplement apply to the entire detachment - including vet tax, vet ban, and alternative artifact list. The new detachment rules are not a 'get out of vet tax' free card for Black Legion, nor are they an invitation to include a mace prince within a Crimson Slaughter detachment. Since all colors of CSM are the same faction, however, you may include an army with, say, two combined arms detachments, one of which you apply a supplement to, and the other you apply the other supplement to, or none at all. Likewise, until some ruling says otherwise, you can declare any CSM formation to use one of the supplements, since formations are their own detachments. This lets you have fear causing fallen or helcults for example. Note that you can make fallen troops by applying the black legion supplement, but that this doesn't actually do anything for them, since they're scoring anyway now, and since the the units are from a formation and not from a combined arms or allied detachment, they will not gain objective secured. On the subject of allied detachments, there's considerable contention as to whether you can take an allied detachment of a different flavor of chaos marine if your main army is already of the chaos marine faction. Normally an allied detachment must be of a different faction. However the supplements specifically state they can 'ally with' the parent book and vice versa. That said, 'allying with' does not necessarily mean 'may be taken as an allied detachment for'. And letting one supplement primary take an allied detachment of the other supplement is even more murky - the interpretations that would allow it (ie, you take a CSM allied detachment, then apply the other supplements rules to that detachment) would also allow supplement primary armies to take allied detachments of themselves! If you want to stay completely kosher, stick to combined arms detachments for now, and save allied detachments for daemons or the like. An interesting problem is raised by unbound armies. In an unbound army, all the forces you take from each individual faction are collected into a single detachment of that faction. As a result, by a strict reading of the rules, this means that in an unbound army all of your CSM units that are not within a formation (which still count as their own, separate detachments), must all use the same supplement, or none at all, making unbound armies less flexible than battleforged armies in this regard. On the one hand, it means you aren't getting around your restrictions for free, which is good. On the other hand, it really doesn't fit with the entire purpose of unbound armies, which is bad. However, games of 40k using unbound armies require considerable advance communication and cooperation by participating players, much like Apocalypse games, so I'm confident players can work out an individual fix for this problem on a case by case basis with your opponent. Note that the fine details of the 8th edition detachment rules are rather murky a this point (don't get me started on what detachment conjured daemons are part of!), so all of the above is subject to change should we see any form of official clarification or errata to the contrary. Found it. This is what I was thinking of. Apologies for looking like a bumbling idiot. Good to see both sides of the argument given weight in that post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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