boreas Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Okay, so first game yesterday. I was playing 1000pts, wita friend bringing 1000pts of Orks. Against us, my Buddy had 2000pts of IG. Pretty casual lists for a regular week-night game. Without going into the details it was an infantry list for the IG: HQ in a chimera with lascannon (with Laurels of something for a 6" auto-pass moral and a preferred enemy wargear), Platoon with some meltas/plasmas, a group of 3 lascannons, a group of 3 autocannons, 6 bullgryns with commisar and psyker ( ML2 - force axe), Aegis line, quad autocannon, icarus lascannon, some gizmo that created a line of dangerous terrain, 25 scions in Deep Strike and anothe ML2 psyker somewhere. Really casual, but potential to fire a lot of AP1/2. My Ork team-mate had nobz in trucks, buggies and Big Guns units. I had: Némésis Strike Force: ML3 Libby (cuirass), 10 GKT (2 hammers, 2 psycannons), 2 NDK (HPsycannon, incinerator, sword, teleporter). I roll on Sanctic because it's fun. I get Vortex, Cleansing flames Purge Soul (and of course banishment). After re-roll, I get the Warlord trait that give better banishment - Derp. We get turn 1, I manage to roll a 3+ so my big termi squad comes in, scatters 8" into his line and get placed at the opposite end of the table (so, useless for most of the game). My 2 NDK shunt up to his line. Orks move up. I manage to cast sanctuary on both NDK. I start shooting to my opponent's disbelief. 2 Incinerators and 2 HPsycannons in such a packed bunch of IG is not fun. Still, because of the Laurel, no one runs away. I still kill 3 lascannons, 2 autocannons, a plasmagunner... Orks lob a few rokkits and stuff, cleaning up a bit. My friend is being a good sport about it. Still has lots of shooting and (he thinks) a trick up his sleeve. He casts "Force" and "Prescience" on his psyker in the unit of bullgryns and the Power-fist commissar (I let him). So orders are give to bring down the NDK. After shooting all can, he manages a puny 2 wounds on one of the NDKs. 4++ on a NDK is very very good. You technically need 20 BS3 lascannon shots to bring one down. He, he soldiers on, assaulting with the bullgryn/commissar/psyker unit, knowing that the psyker can get a lucky shot (4 attacks on the charge, re-roll to-hit and to-wound, St4 Ap2 because of the axe...). My NDK have "instant-killed" whole squads of his Carnifexes in previous games, so he's eager for payback! I call a challenge. He stops smiling. At this point I can either take the psyker out of the fight (if he refuses) or I can pummel down his chosen character before it can do anything. We confirm that the NDK is a character and at this point the game stops.... We re-load the hookah pipe (just regular herbal Tobacco, have no fear!) and open up a beer to discuss the game. Okay, he didn't have a competitive list. Not even close. And he had 400+ pts of scions in reserves. Still, my 2 NDK (450pts) managed to tie up his 1550 pts. The Ork player didn't really get to play. And I had 650pts out of the game. If I had scattered an inch less, I would have had 10 Termies shooting 8 psycannon shots and I could have managed to fit in a Cleansing flames on top of it. This codex really made the NDK ridiculously good. I now feel bad playing them. So, next game, I'll try and "dumb down" my list. Possibly try not to take NDK (or only one), maybe some purifiers in rhinos? I really don't like this codex :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 For me. My dreadknights are guaranteed dead by turn 3. Lots of plamsa where I play. So if anything they're not good enough for me! Haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3798818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Pretty much falls under "Your Mileage May Vary." What seems to be OP versus an unprepared opponent is UP versus a prepared opponent. As always, play to your local meta for pick-up games, only go 'Ard Boy if that is the meta you intend to play. In the OP's case, you literally took the only optimized build for a NSF at 1000pts, and would have lost big time in a Maelstrom Mission game to an even slightly prepared AM opponent. It's not the NDK, it's the dude standing on the other side of the table. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3798838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 For me. My dreadknights are guaranteed dead by turn 3. Lots of plamsa where I play. So if anything they're not good enough for me! HahaLikewise. Plasma melta gravitons oh my! I feel your pain. But at boreas, Indeed to have a fair chance a ndk is a must. Your opponent underestimated you, not your fault. His pyskers should have been game for mind bolts when he saw the angry testosterone induced baby carries Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3798918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Old codex NDK w/teleporter was close to 260pts. He expected one at 1000pts. Two NDK that now shoot two powerfull weapons at 225pts each did overwhelm him. Of course, as Jeff pointed out, he came with a fun and fluffy list. There is no question my list was definitely stronger. But still, to wreck his army in one turn with about one-third of the points (my 450pts vs his 1550 pts) was harsh. It really shows how the internal balance of this codex is wayyyyyy off. We were playing a Maelstrom of war game by the way. My ork ally's 1000pts really had the leisure to seize any objective (my team placed all our objectives mid-field) while I was tanking the army. If I'd had the models, I could have played 2000pts by doubling my current list (ie 2 libbies, probably 4 squads of 5 termies (instead of 2 big ones) and 4 NDK (I only have 2). I have a hard time seeing how he could have prepared for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3798976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Bring a baneblade. When all else fails fire eleven barrels of hell. Atleast thats the ig response where I play. :-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3798980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Who cares about missions when you can table the opponent. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3799006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Who cares about missions when you can table the opponent. Unfourtanatly this is where our dex is right now. Objectives be damned, kill them all seems to be the order of the day for us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3799018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templar1 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 This is kind of funny to me, because I've been feeling the codex is highly underpowered compared to others. The Dreadknight is one of the few things going well for us. Much like Chaos and the Helldrake. I would never call the Grey Knights Codex "OP". On that note, your friend should take more plasma. And that rending order thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3799024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I have a Question... I remember to have read somewhere that NDK has Precision Strikes / Shots is that true? i can't find it in the Rulebook nor GK codex Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3799026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Character had that in 6th ed. No more precision shots for the NDK! The codex is definitely not OP. I figure my friend will bring more plasma vets next time. And his Imperial knight. And pie-plate tanks (to take care of those 1000pts of Orks that were coming in second wave...). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3799058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 My friend sent me this today http://s12.postimg.org/lvqfnoh71/Grey_Knights_codex.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Well, GW failed to give us any other well priced or useful options in the codex. Apart from Terminators, anyway. So what do people expect us to do? Drop ~500 points on a Paladin squad? Try and get some mileage out of our painfully overpriced Dreadnoughts? Use Strike Squads (pfft)? The only things in our codex that can put a hurt on the enemy are Dreadknights. Even with the price reduction, our Terminators suffer from the same problems all termies share: AP2 is far too prevalent, and far too cheap. Yeah, the got a price reduction to help with that, and they're ok now, but they're not a great unit. Dreadknights are a great unit. And they're the only one we've got, sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The thing is though, a list of just Dreadknights is dumb and skews too hard. You still need infantry and other stuff to make a well-rounded list. I wouldn't say DK's are the only good unit. Purifiers improved IMO, Termies are at least cheaper (didn't expect that at all), Ravens do anti-tank very well, Librarians went from mediocre to amazing, Grandmasters still get the job done, Interceptors can now buy falchions at non-absurd prices...I agree it's a short list :( but there are still a few options here and there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The thing is though, a list of just Dreadknights is dumb and skews too hard. You still need infantry and other stuff to make a well-rounded list. I wouldn't say DK's are the only good unit. Purifiers improved IMO, Termies are at least cheaper (didn't expect that at all), Ravens do anti-tank very well, Librarians went from mediocre to amazing, Grandmasters still get the job done, Interceptors can now buy falchions at non-absurd prices...I agree it's a short list :( but there are still a few options here and there. I love the notion here, I really do. I don't want to come off as insulting, more just want to make this point about the codex: Build a list that boasts a well rounded selection based off of our codex and I will show you how a dreadknight replacing something immediately improves it. A lot of codexes suffer from this right now. Riptides, wave serpents, nurgle, helldrakes, exorcists, dreadknights, cents/grav cannons... every faction seems to be getting that one unit that just blows the rest of the codex away and it is hard to justify moving away from said unit. Edit: it is just painfully obvious in the gk codex because of how shallow the roster is. There is no illusion of options or interesting/brilliant interaction waiting to be discovered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 At least the NDK to GKT comparison is a lot closer now. GKT x5, Psycannon (185) NDK, Gattling Psi, H Psycannon (195) NDK has more shots, higher T, and 4++ Save. But loses a Wound. If you didn't need Troops Slots (Hi Unbound!) you could easily sub out every 5 GKT for another NDK... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 At least the NDK to GKT comparison is a lot closer now. GKT x5, Psycannon (185) NDK, Gattling Psi, H Psycannon (195) NDK has more shots, higher T, and 4++ Save. But loses a Wound. If you didn't need Troops Slots (Hi Unbound!) you could easily sub out every 5 GKT for another NDK... You forgot STR 10 melee attacks being more readily a source of instant death than wasting warp charges on a chance to fail force and risking perils... oh, wait, you were trying to CLOSE the gap! I withdraw my statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Dont forget the those S10 attacks are at initiative and can upgrade to a jump monstrous creature for the same price as one jump pack on one death company. I mean Seriously GW! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Build a list that boasts a well rounded selection based off of our codex and I will show you how a dreadknight replacing something immediately improves it. M8, I'm in agreement. Dreadknights are absurd. If Unbound is ever made legal, I'll be the first on the hype train of '6 DK's in yo face!'. Having said that, I like actually using some of the models in my collection (shrug) A lot of codexes suffer from this right now. Riptides, wave serpents, nurgle, helldrakes, exorcists, dreadknights, cents/grav cannons... every faction seems to be getting that one unit that just blows the rest of the codex away and it is hard to justify moving away from said unit. Critical difference; those armies get their power units, but they still tend to field at least token ground forces and support to compliment it. For Tau, Sniper Kroot, Pathfinders, Crisis, Broadsides etc are still found alongside DoubleTide or even TripTide. Eldar field Jetbiker Troops, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders and of course MSU Dire Avengers, plus psychic support with Warlocks and Farseers (hell, I even see Wraith units in Serpent Spam lists). Marines get Biker Troops, Sternguard in pods, Stormhammers etc backing up Dev Centurions. Its not all one thing, even in their skew lists they have scoring presence and a variety of support. We get precisely none of that. GW actually reduce our roster of 'viable' or even 'playable' units from an already small pool. I always joke with my opponents that my Knights are their own support, ie I don't field tanks, or ranged support, or even specialists, because everyone is expected to fight 3x or even 4x their weight in enemy units and win. It's depressing how even Interceptors (which are good) are so easily outclassed by the Dreadknight in the same role (fast melee). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 In the old Dex, it was the same cost for the NDK (with a Blast Psycannon though) but 225 for 5 GKT. Now, instead of being cheaper, the NDK is 10 points more expensive. But still the better choice. If Unbound is ever made legal, I'll be the first on the hype train of '6 DK's in yo face!'. 6 Is battle forged mate. 9 is ubound... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 In the old Dex, it was the same cost for the NDK (with a Blast Psycannon though) but 225 for 5 GKT. Now, instead of being cheaper, the NDK is 10 points more expensive. But still the better choice. It's really depressing, and its how my games play out. The Dreadknights do almost all the work, my other units barely do much before either dying or being tied up in melee. 6 Is battle forged mate. 9 is ubound... My apologies ;) 9 DK it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Still, serpents and riptides do a lot of the work for their respected armies, they just have the luxury of fielding meaningful units alongside them. This is where I am coming down on the gk codex: we simply do not have the deversity outside of our thumper units to field a respectable force. In fact, everything outside of the NDK is so far and below the bar that a lot of people build cent stars and double GK detachment armies just to get more heavy slots. I am to the point of suggesting that a personal teleporter makes it a fast attack but loses some melee competence and just make us a 10 model army of dreadknights. HQs troops and all. Just to spit in the face of our codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Just play unbound and run 9 NDKs with an NDK Warlord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3800821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 This is where I am coming down on the gk codex: we simply do not have the deversity outside of our thumper units to field a respectable force. In fact, everything outside of the NDK is so far and below the bar that a lot of people build cent stars and double GK detachment armies just to get more heavy slots. I wouldn't go that far. We have other good stuff, and DK's aren't invulnerable (they die to plasma very quickly). It is annoying that our list of useable units is like 1, maybe 2 per Force Org slot, if that. All our armies are gonna look even more samey than before, when we at least had Inquisition stuff to add variety and support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3802408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purifying Tempest Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Well, I got a taste of DKs ruining my opponent's day. She had DEldar poison spam, so I actually opted to deep strike them since she got first turn. Both roll high enough to hit table turn one, then didn't scatter out of range. Anything a dreadknight does kills filthy xenos by the grip. It was... glorious! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296224-first-game-ndk-hate/#findComment-3802430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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