Allies Are A Knight's Best Friend: How To BFF In 7th edition

[Happy-inquisitor]

Not explicitly using the vindicate for null deployment. The vindicare needs to have some defense to let him do his job. He should be able to threaten many units characters and hqs as well as chipping the last hp or wounds off of the bigger basis out there.

 

 

A GK shunt list with a couple of Interceptor incinerators and NDK heavy incinerators would toast him turn 1. Too many ways to kill him in there, take a look at the building damage table, it is brutal.

[Shadrach03]

Any other ideas for incorporating him into a list or one of the other assassins besides the colexus?  I'd really like to be able to field them without feeling like it's a gimmick or wasted points.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I think that using an HQ with reliable reserves modifier is far more viable, so long as their modifier works while they are in reserves themselves. 

 

 

Tiggy's Reserve re-rolls work whilst he is in Reserve. I'm gonna farm this question out to you guys though, as I'm not sure if this works or not;

 

'Gift of Prescience: If your army contains Tigurius, you can choose to re-roll any Reserves rolls that apply to units from the same detachment, even successful ones'

pg. 218, Codex: Space Marines

 

'Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deepstrike Reserve from the start of your turn one...'

pg. 273, Codex: Grey Knights

 

Here is my question;

 

Grey Knight Librarian

+

Ultramarine Terminator Assault squad

 

or 

 

Ultramarine Terminator Captain

+

Grey Knight Terminator squad

 

When placed in Deepstrike Reserve, which unit is considered part of the Grey Knights detachment, and which is considered part of the Ultramarine detachment? Are they both? Neither? 

 

Answer A: They are considered part of both detachments, and thus you receive the benefit of both re-rolling Reserve rolls (from Tiggy) and rolling for Deepstriking Reserves Turn 1, plus Run and Shoot. 

 

Answer B: The first unit is considered part of the Ultramarines detachment. It may not arrive Turn 1 using 'Rites of Teleportation', but you may re-roll its Reserve roll. The second unit is considered part of the Grey Knights detachment, and thus may benefit from 'Rites of Teleportation', but you may not re-roll the Reserve roll for them. 

 

Answer C: Neither unit is considered part of either detachment. Neither detachments bonuses apply to either. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: I assume that the Knights units are taken as a Nemesis Strikeforce, and the Ultramarine detachment has both Tigerius and either is taken as an Allied detachment or a normal CAD. 

[Gentlemanloser]

We've hashed this out before.

 

Needs clarification from GW.

 

Personally, I see the 'Command Benefits' of a Detachment seperate to 'Special Rules' and the rules that govern those applying to ICs and Units they join.

 

But others might see Rites of Teleportation as just another Special Rule, which doesn't get conferred to any unit a GK IC might join.

 

Edit;

 

I'd say yes to both Rites and Tiggy.

 

A unit of Ultramarine Hammernators with a GKGM attached is a combined unit.  And you make a single Reserve Roll for it.  The GKGM still benefits from the NSF Command Benefit: Riate of Teleportation, so you can roll for his combined unit on Turn 1.

 

The Hammernators are from the same detachment as Tiggy, so you can use his reroll for their combined unit.

 

Of which you can make a roll on turn 1.

 

Edit2:

 

But there will be folk unhappy with this...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We've hashed this out before.

 

Needs clarification from GW.

 

Personally, I see the 'Command Benefits' of a Detachment seperate to 'Special Rules' and the rules that govern those applying to ICs and Units they join.

 

But others might see Rites of Teleportation as just another Special Rule, which doesn't get conferred to any unit a GK IC might join.

 

Edit;

 

I'd say yes to both Rites and Tiggy.

 

A unit of Ultramarine Hammernators with a GKGM attached is a combined unit.  And you make a single Reserve Roll for it.  The GKGM still benefits from the NSF Command Benefit: Riate of Teleportation, so you can roll for his combined unit on Turn 1.

 

The Hammernators are from the same detachment as Tiggy, so you can use his reroll for their combined unit.

 

Of which you can make a roll on turn 1.

 

Edit2:

 

But there will be folk unhappy with this...

 

I don't care about unhappiness. I just wanna know if the rules support it. To which your answer is yes. So hell yeah. new best buds are Ultramarines. 

[Gentlemanloser]

The counter arguements are;

 

1: The combined unit isn't a Grey Knight unit.  So you can't use rites.

 

(The return is that that would imply the GKGM is no longer of Faction: Grey Knights, which is absurd.  The Combined unit is both Faction: Space Marine and Faction: Grey Knights.)

 

2: Rites of Teleportation is a Special Rule and it doesn't state it carries over to a unit the IC joins.

 

(While true, if Rites counts as a USR.  It's a 'Command Benefit', much like rerolling your Warlord Trait, or Objective Secured.  Is Objective Secured a Special Rule that can be gained or lost due to ICs jumping squads?)

 

 

Lastly, you also need to think about Transports.

 

 

Would a GK unit in a SW Drop Pod (so no issues with ICs conferring rules to Units...) as a Combined unit of Faction: Space Wolves and Faction: Grey Knights, benefit from Rites?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well 'Rites' checks if the unit you are Deepstriking from Reserves is from the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment. The GK are, so that works. The manner in which you are Deepstriking does not matter (it is titled 'Rites of Teleportation', but it never references how you are Deepstriking in the rules). 

[Shadrach03]

Since we don't have re-rolls to hit in our book anymore does anyone think an ally chaplain is worth the hq slot? I think 90 points will get a vanilla chaplain and 110 will get the dark angel only interrogator chaplain with +1BS,I and W along with fearless.

[Raktra]

Well we've got Divination, but I see what you mean. Pretty bummed the BroChamp lost those rules, was about his only use.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Since we don't have re-rolls to hit in our book anymore does anyone think an ally chaplain is worth the hq slot? I think 90 points will get a vanilla chaplain and 110 will get the dark angel only interrogator chaplain with +1BS,I and W along with fearless. 

 

No, because we already have the infinitely better 'Prescience' psychic power from Divination. Chaplains are useless and will remain useless until their 'Litanies' is changed to provide a relevant buff ('Furious Charge' or 'Rage' would be my picks). 

[Raktra]

I'd argue that point, Hatred is pretty awesome. But this isn't the thread I guess.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd argue that point, Hatred is pretty awesome. But this isn't the thread I guess.

 

 

'Hatred' is terrible. Its only for melee attacks, its only in the first round of combat, and its almost always conditional (in the case of 'Litanies', you have to get the charge, most other forms are matchup-dependent ie just like the much better Preferred Enemy rule). 

 

'Prescience' applies to all failed rolls to hit, it lasts until your next Psychic phase (so all through the enemy turn, including when you Overwatch), and its already available on all our good HQ choices, and many of our Allied ones as well. 

[Raktra]

You know Litanies is gone aside from in BA, right? Chaplains just have Zealot now.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You know Litanies is gone aside from in BA, right? Chaplains just have Zealot now.

 

 

Isn't 'Zealot' functionally the same thing though? IIRC it grants 'Hatred' as well as 'Crusader'. 

[IndigoJack]

Mostly the same. The biggest difference is hatred grants the re-rolls in the first round of combat regardless of whether you charged or not.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Mostly the same. The biggest difference is hatred grants the re-rolls in the first round of combat regardless of whether you charged or not. 

 

 

That's a nice buff, although given Marines have ample access to 'Prescience', I can't say Chaplains are ever going to be worthwhile. 

[Everon]

Just get off force with a soul glaive. Melee or shooting its hatred every round with mastercrafted for everyone!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Just get off force with a soul glaive. Melee or shooting its hatred every round with mastercrafted for everyone! 

 

 

Yeah Soul Glaive is insanely potent against Daemons. They have no 2+ armour to defend against it, you re-roll to hit and wound with 'Force' up, and 'Force' insta-gibs their Heralds and MC's in melee no problems. Keeping your Grandmaster alive is a different matter. Sucks we can't stack it with Cuirass :(

[Everon]

Actually not too hard. Ive been testing out a wl knight with a gm and draigo attached. Knight has the h psy h inc and pt. Turn 1 GoI behind their libe and force up. It boosts dread knights weapons and the gms psycanon to put a hurt on. In the mean time a lr and 2 rbs with tllc opening up on their mechs or heavy hitters depending on the enemy.

 

In the mean time you got draigo with a 2++ for the defending turn soaking up hits. Turn two draigo and gm seperate to cause hell in the back and either charge the dk or pt him as needed to just cause your opponent a cluster and mass confusion on how to fix this disaster in his line

[Gentlemanloser]

BFF?

 

Forget Draigo and GoI.

 

Dev Centurion + SW Drop Pods.

[Bionicman]

Before considering how to...what's the phrase, 'build a balanced list' (cries of horror from GW), you must first consider what makes Knights special, and what they already do quite well. Don't worry, it's a short list

Knight advantages:

- Everyone is a psyker (WC for dayz!1!!!)

- Cheaper Terminator Troops (take that Deathwing!...I mean you get plasma cannons and storm shields...whatever...)

- A HQ who beats face, has psychic powers outside of Santic, and he's still only around 200pts (Grandmaster)

- A HQ who is the most absurd WC and support power battery in the game (Librarian)

- Never having to worry about being tarpitted or overwhelmed by superior infantry numbers (Purifiers)

- Fearless melee specialists who still have guns, aren't over 30ppm (usually), and fit inside a Raven at full strength (Purifiers)

- WC2, even in combat squads (Purifiers)

- A Flyer that kills other Fliers, has an Assault ramp, and can carry any of our infantry (Raven)

- Supreme mobility in both infantry (Interceptor) and Monstrous Creature form (Dreadknight)

- The scariest ground MC in the game (Dreadknight)

- Who still has excellent guns for doing fire support when he isn't in melee (Dreadknight)

- Nemesis Strikeforce (aka two Troops min is for chumps, also Run+Shoot after Deepstriking Turn 1 because reasons)

Knight disadvantages:

- Everyone is a psyker (Culexus... )

- Army of expensive Marines who die like normal Marines...when Riptides and Heldrakes exist

- Low model count

- Distinct lack of anti-tank at range, besides the Raven

- Salvo psycannons, thus making them irrelevant besides on TDA or on the Dreadknight

- Deepstrike reliant, and thus Reserves reliant

Hammer of the Emperor:

Primaris Psykers; Cheaper than Inquisitors, although they can't armour up, get a good gun or Deepstrike. They are very cheap for Mastery 2 though.

Company Command: 4x BS4 plasma or meltaguns, plus orders to make any other meats...I mean loyal allied AM units perform better. Chimera to keep them alive slightly longer.

Infantry squads: Cheap, special and heavy weapon per squad, powerfist Sarges on the cheap, in blobs they're annoying to remove and still very cost-effective. Combining should be done when and if needed, otherwise leave them as multiple units so you can dilute enemy firepower. The Platoon Command brings the same plasma/melta spam, but only at BS3. If you need to bulk up your ground presence, Infantry platoons do the job very well.

Russes: The variants are very cheap now, although the basic 'large krak blast' version does a lot of things very well for Knights. AV14 is also very nice with the new 7th damage tables, its hard to kill these at range, although melta or flanking units are still an issue. Pask is sexy with a Punisher or Exterminator variant, although his cost quickly spirals (note that this moves the Russ squadron to HQ instead of Heavy).

I would not overlook the wyvern for crowd control and major trolling. Granted with the new ed a lot of psycannons were replaced by heavy incinerators but wyvern are so cheap (2 for 130? yes please) and so devastating that they have become an auto include for me, although I dislike the ugly model.

Speaking of russes - Tank Commander Vanquisher with Lasca (+flamer sponsons) and an Exterminator buddy with all HB is a viable addition, although a bit pricey. Eradicators are good for crowd control, but I like two wyverns more. Or an Executioner + plasma sponsons which brings that so much needed AP2 on the table - but better of with twinlinking (ammo dump or prescience).

I also like conscripts for being the cheapest meatshield. Nothing is more grimdark and fluffy as 50 useless soldiers throwing themselves at the biggest threads while screaming "oh please sacrifice us!" (don't forget the priest or comissar though). Think of all the scary units you can tarpit and multiassault and all the huge chunks of the table you can block with bodies. Priceless for GK I say.

Otherwise it's also a good idea to blob up with lascas and plasma (3 platoon squads are sufficent) and add one of our libbies for prescience.

And last thing while speaking about the "hammer". We had this thread about MT around here some weeks ago. Things given they might have become an option if you just need deep strike melta.

I am curious about the "new?" inquisitor codex though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I would not overlook the wyvern for crowd control and major trolling. Granted with the new ed a lot of psycannons were replaced by heavy incinerators but wyvern are so cheap (2 for 130? yes please) and so devastating that they have become an auto include for me, although I dislike the ugly model.

 

Wyvern is a shill by GW. Knights have never had issues with chaff (which is all it kills), our problems are durable skimmers or battlesuits, neither of which the Wyvern deals with at all. 

Speaking of russes - Tank Commander Vanquisher with Lasca (+flamer sponsons) and an Exterminator buddy with all HB is a viable addition, although a bit pricey. Eradicators are good for crowd control, but I like two wyverns more. Or an Executioner + plasma sponsons which brings that so much needed AP2 on the table - but better of with twinlinking (ammo dump or prescience).

 

I feel more like Punishers or Exterminators these days. You need lots of dice to break Serpent and Flyer cover saves, and to chip away their HP (Vanquishers are pretty meh nowadays, as your odds of one-shotting are quite low). Executioner is nice, the extra range makes it a lot better than the Demolisher. 

I also like conscripts for being the cheapest meatshield. Nothing is more grimdark and fluffy as 50 useless soldiers throwing themselves at the biggest threads while screaming "oh please sacrifice us!" (don't forget the priest or comissar though). Think of all the scary units you can tarpit and multiassault and all the huge chunks of the table you can block with bodies. Priceless for GK I say.

 

Eh, I cheap scoring that still does stuff, which is what Infantry Platoons already do. Conscripts generally don't achieve anything but die. The lack of special and heavy weapons is a pain. 

And last thing while speaking about the "hammer". We had this thread about MT around here some weeks ago. Things given they might have become an option if you just need deep strike melta.

 

Even with melta, your odds of dropping a target in one-shot are quite low, even with 3-4 pens you might still not roll the 5 needed. If I'm taking Guard I'd rather just spam autocannon and lascannon cheaply, and chip away targets with massed fire. Scions are also quite pricey for a suicide unit. 

[Bionicman]

Speaking of punishers you probably mean pask. Otherwise it is "chaff" only, as you call it. I dislike punishers for being 24'', thats what my knights already do. I want range...36-48''+, lost because of that unnecessary dreadnought nerf.

 

And I wouldn't sneeze at wyvern as they are really cheap. Ap 6 is a bummer but they do hurt. Anyways, the good thing with the guard is, they bring whatever tool you need. Except durable units maybe. ;)

 

Serpents...it is a shame the hydra lost its auto targeting decive.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Speaking of punishers you probably mean pask. Otherwise it is "chaff" only, as you call it. I dislike punishers for being 24'', thats what my knights already do. I want range...36-48''+, lost because of that unnecessary dreadnought nerf.

Eh, S5 can still chip away HP on AV10 and AV11, its not completely useless. But yes, Pask with Rending does help it a lot. 24" isn't so bad, at least its AV14, so it will take significant effort to kill (ie them committing meltaguns or a lot of high Strength firepower). I'd definitely put his squadmates as Exterminators, S7 spam is the meta after all.

And I wouldn't sneeze at wyvern as they are really cheap. Ap 6 is a bummer but they do hurt. Anyways, the good thing with the guard is, they bring whatever tool you need. Except durable units maybe.

Yeah but my point is, Knights have no need for anti-infantry. We need anti-tank in spades on durable platforms, and especially long-range firepower. Russes are much better in that role, as are Manticores.

Durable units? Well Bullgryns are pretty absurd for their points. 3+ armour save, 3x T5 wounds, they punch stuff to death in melee pretty easily...plus they grant bonuses to cover saves of friendly units behind them. Pretty excellent meatshield, even if it is expensive.

Serpents...it is a shame the hydra lost its auto targeting decive.

And it has Skyfire. Its kind of amazing how bad the Hydra has become. I remember a squadron in Heavy used to be a staple for Guard, but ever since the Cruddex dropped, people ignore them in favour of Vendettas (who whilst pricier are still the best anti-Flyer Flyer in the game) or Fortifications.

[BladeGaurd]

 

Imperial Knight-Titans:

 

Paladin: Two battle cannon shots, plus a Destroyer melee walker who is hard to kill? Very synergistic, as a Knight-Titan is a threat the enemy cannot ignore and will draw significant firepower and resources off your precious Knight infantry. It's also a good alternative to man the Comms Array, as its unlikely to die Turn 1. 

 

Errant: A large blast melta cannon, and still a Destroyer melee walker that is hard to kill. More aggressive, and so riskier, but you cannot deny its threat projection. 

 

Gerantius: 500pts is a lot. That's an entire Terminator squad with all the trimmings, plus spare change. However, he's even more stupid tough (3+ invul...wow), and can Run+Shoot, re-roll bad Stomps...big call here. He is an Errant pattern don't forget, so he wants to get up close and rip stuff up. 

 

Note: I really feel Knight-Titan Allies belong in larger games. In smaller games it simply cuts too deep into your points total, when you're already behind curve in terms of model count. No denying they are annoying as hell to get rid of (multiple melta hits, and even then its chancy), but if they do die its a big chunk of points gone. Just really think about it, we already suffer from being an expensive, small force. 

 

 

Where can I find Gerantius rules?

 

Also I like the use of Scions it helps maintain the elites feel while adding plasma, melta, and marine killing options and the taurox prime is a 100 light vehicle bane with 2 missile shots, a twin link auto cannon and fast.  The also drop so if you want to do a drop thing army they still maintain that thread.

 

I plan on trying sisters at some point. Cheep meltas and the exorcist.

 

As for IG, if you stick to 500-600 pt for allies so that they are effect but do not feel like the balk of your army then you have some scary options for bulk or fire power. I like the idea of a 2 vanquisher tank commander squad with hull lascannons and a hydra or you can go infantry spam and I will not tell you how many little guys you can get.

The thing with the hydra is it 75 pt of shaping the field, I have seen more stupid actions from people with fliers because of 1 hydra then I would like to count.