Allies Are A Knight's Best Friend: How To BFF In 7th edition

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Where can I find Gerantius rules?

 

White Dwarf. There is a PDF version floating about you can grab. 

Also I like the use of Scions it helps maintain the elites feel while adding plasma, melta, and marine killing options

 

They do cost quite a bit though, and die like flies. You can get melta and AP2 on better platforms. 

taurox prime is a 100 light vehicle bane with 2 missile shots, a twin link auto cannon and fast.

 

It's also AV10, in a metagame where even AV12 is considered too easy to chip away with massed fire of the S6/7 variety. 

 

I plan on trying sisters at some point. Cheep meltas and the exorcist.

 

 

They're in a really bad place as a codex right now. As bad as we got nerfed, they still have it worse :( . I'd be Allying Marines over Sisters any day sadly. 

As for IG, if you stick to 500-600 pt for allies so that they are effect but do not feel like the balk of your army then you have some scary options for bulk or fire power. I like the idea of a 2 vanquisher tank commander squad with hull lascannons and a hydra or you can go infantry spam and I will not tell you how many little guys you can get.

 

Oh I do like IG tanks, I think they're probably the strongest Ally unit they have, and the HQ Leman Russ squadron is pretty hilarious (especially with Pask). Plus you can make the tanks even more stupid durable with a Void Shield Generator. 

 

The thing with the hydra is it 75 pt of shaping the field, I have seen more stupid actions from people with fliers because of 1 hydra then I would like to count.

 

 

Meh, a quad gun does the same thing and can't be destroyed. 

[IndigoJack]

Meh, a quad gun does the same thing and can't be destroyed.

A quadgun is T7 two wound artillery unit with a 3+ save. It most certainly can be destroyed, and fairly easily since most people shove it to the front of their deployment zone behind the ADL/on top of a bastion.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

A quadgun is T7 two wound artillery unit with a 3+ save. It most certainly can be destroyed, and fairly easily since most people shove it to the front of their deployment zone behind the ADL/on top of a bastion. 

 

It's actually not an artillery unit, its an emplacement (I did forget about the rules for emplacements, was thinking of the Comms Array for some reason) AV12 is easier to kill with the same firepower, T7 and a 3+ save is actually pretty durable to S6/7 spam (not amazingly so, but still). I've yet to have a game where people have actually prioritized the quad gun though. 

 

My other issue with the Hydra is that it uses a Heavy slot, which when you are Allying is a big deal as that's less Russes or Manticores. In a normal list, IG players already have Vendettas for anti-Flyer/FMC firepower, so Hydras are sorta out of luck. Having to Snap Shoot ground targets is just dumb, its a problem that affects all ground-based Skyfire units (except Tau, who can turn it on/off as they please). 

[Frater Cornelius]

If you want a high pressure assault list, get Space Wolves. NDK shunting, TDA deep striking and TWC charging forward. The opponent will not like turn 2.

If you want choppy support, TWC is your unit. Accept no substitute.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you want a high pressure assault list, get Space Wolves. NDK shunting, TDA deep striking and TWC charging forward. The opponent will not like turn 2.

If you want choppy support, TWC is your unit. Accept no substitute. 

 

Yeah I've been on the recieving end of TWC. They ate both my Dreadknights :( at least mass psycannon kills them, although that's no longer doable :(

[Frater Cornelius]

I have actually adopted this strategy and all but completed my 1850 standard list because of the new GK. A TWC-only SW force supported by a Librarian, TDA and a NDK. One hell of a list.
I imagine it also works the other way around, or, if your community is more open minded about rules, play a CotGW SW detachment with a NSF GK detachment. Then laugh at people telling you that melee is dead

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I imagine it also works the other way around, or, if your community is more open minded about rules, play a CotGW SW detachment with a NSF GK detachment. Then laugh at people telling you that melee is dead

Tau and Eldar will be laughing, because they'll shoot you off the board. Serpent in particular can just move out of melee range every turn and drive-by you with massed fire. I can't put into words how irritating it is to lose DK's to non-AP2. I can walk through Tau pulse like its a refreshing shower, but S6/7 in the quantities Serpent lists produce...insane. Utterly insane. Meanwhile, Tau pulse fire is the most efficient way to kill TWC. It'll take them probably two Shooting phases, but they will kill them. I do like that Riptides do almost nothing to TWC though (3+ invul from storm shields, that magic T5 threshold).

[Frater Cornelius]

Speak for yourself, bud. I am talking from experience. Yes, NDK and TWC die from Tesla or Pulse spam respectively. That is why you bring more than one. Besides, all your favourite xenos factions only get one shooting phase against fast armies like that. Even a Serpent needs to give up it's shooting to escape the TWC. Tau and Necrons are slow by comparison. I played against all three and not a single one got more than one complete shooting phase against me, especially not Tau.

Melee is highly underrated because the most popular factions capitalize on shooting and shooting is more convenient given the current rule set. Does not mean that melee is weak. Given the right units and tactics it works just fine.

Maybe GK really can not handle (which is not the case with SW) it or you are simply incompetent at controlling a melee army, which is fine, it ain't easy at times. Just don't go around and bashing on melee because you get your ass handed by Eldar or Necrons, or because you read somewhere that melee does not work.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Speak for yourself, bud. I am talking from experience. Yes, NDK and TWC die from Tesla or Pulse spam respectively. That is why you bring more than one. Besides, all your favourite xenos factions only get one shooting phase against fast armies like that. Even a Serpent needs to give up it's shooting to escape the TWC. Tau and Necrons are slow by comparison. I played against all three and not a single one got more than one complete shooting phase against me, especially not Tau.

 

Experiences differ. This is a game of D6's being rolled endlessly, so I'm not saying its impossible to swamp them in melee if they fail to kill you in their Shooting phase. As a Tau player as well, I can confidently say if Shooting fails, its basically GG because melee is auto-lose and it also hides the enemy squad from the gunline (especially if they do the classic assault unit trick of only killing half your squad on their charge, so they're hidden in your Shooting phase, then exiting melee at the end of your Assault phase). I've also been on the receiving end of TWC, they're scary as hell if you don't have the shot output get wounds through. 

Melee is highly underrated because the most popular factions capitalize on shooting and shooting is more convenient given the current rule set. Does not mean that melee is weak. Given the right units and tactics it works just fine.

 

Not disagreeing. But my point about melee being rare still stands. Fire and manouvre are extremely pushed in 40k at the moment, melee is restricted mainly to units that can either deploy rapidly into the enemy's face and not die, or units with naturally high mobility who can chase down something moving 12" a turn or more. Once my DK's hit melee range, its completely onesided unless its a Daemon Prince/Hive Tyrant etc. Melee is money, but getting it to happen is a chore. Random charge range is lame as hell. 

Maybe GK really can not handle (which is not the case with SW) it or you are simply incompetent at controlling a melee army, which is fine, it ain't easy at times. Just don't go around and bashing on melee because you get your ass handed by Eldar or Necrons, or because you read somewhere that melee does not work. 

 

Pure Knights are highly unlikely to get into melee with Serpent Spam or TripTide, unless you spam DK's. TWC are a different story, their 3+ invul invalidates quality shooting and can take even S5/6/7 spam pretty well. Putting the two together is stronger than either IMO, which is why I rate Space Pups so high as an Ally (not to mention their cheap Divination Priests, excellent Troops options, and empty Drop Pods, plus Long Fangs do everything our Purgators don't and cheaper to boot). I'm still experimenting with Wolves though, I haven't found a list I'm happy with yet. Hopefully soon, because I know 6x DK will get boring after a while. 

 

I didn't read that melee doesn't work as a primary strategy. It's from hard won experience. Shooting is king, thankfully Knights aren't so focused on melee we can't do something in the shooting phase. With the advent of Salvo and the price increase on PA psycannon though, we lost a powerful anti-tank gun that also functioned as our general 'point at thing and roll dice till it dies' gun. Psycannon is actually really good against TWC, as you wound reliably with a bunch of shots, and you can go Heavy on Overwatch with 'Prescience' for even more wound potential when they charge you (barring two Purifier squads unloading they'll still likely have 2-3 left to charge you with). 

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, well said.

[IndigoJack]

I know there was a thread about him before, but I think he deserves an addition the the ally thread. Recently, I've started adding Lias Issadon to my list (rules can be found here) and I've found him to be the peanut butter to my jelly. While his statline isn't exactly fantastic (though his BS6 and WS5 are kind of funny) and his wargear isn't something I'd call "amazing", His impressive list of special rules has certainly allowed me to shore up a lot of the weaknesses in my army. I'll do a breakdown of his most pertinent rules.

 

First, he has to be your warlord. Now an interesting thing to note here, is that it seems like he has to be your warlord even if he's in an allied detachment, since his specific rules override the rules in the book. But that's ok, as his warlord trait is pretty snazzy, allowing you to give the infiltrate special rule to the warlord and 3 other non-vehicle units (though it is conferred to the transport the occupants are riding in). This helps our mid-range guns close the gap much faster. Just remember if your going second, your also within 24" of your opponent, and likely to get a lot more firepower dumped on you. Another added benefit is that it also gives you the outflank USR, which has a lot of situational potential.

 

Next, while he's alive, you can chose to re-roll failed or successful reserve rolls and your opponent is at -1 to his reserve rolls. This is great as he doesn't have to be on the table to use it, and makes null deploying a real possibility.

 

Another nifty ability is Infiltrate, Isolate, Destroy, which allows you to cause D6+3 wounds to a monstrous creature or unit, or D3 haywire hits. This is a pretty nice ability, but you need to watch out, as the attacks are assumed to come from the closest unit in your army and can therefore allow cover saves. But hey, atleast they can't jink!

 

He has a locator beacon, which is great for all of our deepstrikers (not just ones in TDA or equipped with personal teleporters).

 

He has the shrouded USR, which is handy at times, and less so at others. 

 

And of course, he gives us access to centurion devs, and I probably don't have to explain why that's nice.

 

I know what you're thinking by now, something like, "That sounds fantastic!, but I'll bet costs at least 200pts" Well, what if I said he only clocked in at 175? That's right for the low, low, er, sorry watching too many infomercials again. But your probably wondering what his downsides are. Here are a few:

 

No eternal warrior, so S8 or higher will double him out.

 

No invul save. Yeah, probably the only chapter master who left his iron halo at home.

 

No orbital bombardment either. That's right, a chapter master without an iron halo or orbital bombardment.

 

And that's pretty much it for downsides. So while he isn't a budget character, he is a character that provides a lot for a GK army, and if you're thinking of taking space marine allies, I'd try proxying him in for a game or two and trying him out.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah Issadon is okay. Fun choice, but he's not going to make waves anywhere, due to A: being Forge World and B: his abilities are handy but not game-changing. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I donno.  Infiltrating Grav Cents.

 

Null deployment aside, consider;

 

Issadon + Grave Cents, 2 x GKT squads Infiltrating.  Backed up by the usual PT Interceptor/NDK.

 

You shunt first turn as normal, but your opponent already has three durable and hard hitting squads to deal with.  And none of which trigger Interceptor.

[Marshal Mattias]

With regards to the earlier discussion of Tiggy/GK benefit sharing;

I think the Tiggy bit is pretty clear-cut, as his rule specifies that it works for his detachment. An attatched GK may well have 'to all intents and purposes' joined the Ultramarines unit, but he is still not a membe of that detachment and should not be able to benefit. Similarly, attaching an independent character from a different faction to a unit does not confer other special rules unless it specifically states so. My emperor's champion doesn't gain 'bolter drill' by joining a fists squad, which seems to be the same thing as an ultra benefitting from a GK special rule.

Apologies if this is going over old ground, I'd be interested to know of any of these have been clarified through FAQs or the like.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With regards to the earlier discussion of Tiggy/GK benefit sharing;

I think the Tiggy bit is pretty clear-cut, as his rule specifies that it works for his detachment. An attatched GK may well have 'to all intents and purposes' joined the Ultramarines unit, but he is still not a membe of that detachment and should not be able to benefit. Similarly, attaching an independent character from a different faction to a unit does not confer other special rules unless it specifically states so. My emperor's champion doesn't gain 'bolter drill' by joining a fists squad, which seems to be the same thing as an ultra benefitting from a GK special rule. 

Apologies if this is going over old ground, I'd be interested to know of any of these have been clarified through FAQs or the like. 

 

Nah, GW prioritised much more pressing issues in the 7th edition FAQ, such as:

 

- Super-Heavy rules

- How Precision Shots/Strikes don't work

- Heavy Stubbers needed clearing up

 

.....................................................................................................

 

On a more serious note, it's completely open to interpretation. Just like the Psychic Phase! Isn't it fun?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

An attatched GK may well have 'to all intents and purposes' joined the Ultramarines unit, but he is still not a membe of that detachment and should not be able to benefit

 

Then the GK hasn't joined the units for all intents and purposes.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Then the GK hasn't joined the units for all intents and purposes.

 

This is the key problem. GW have very clear rules about how USR's and other special rules of the normal 'in their unit entry' type work. They either are stated to transfer to the unit and IC, or they don't. Easy. 

 

The problem is, detachment bonuses are a completely different fish. GW once again failed to think through Ally interactions. I like they've made BB able to use eachother's transports (they do everything else, it was a dumb restriction), but outside of that change they haven't given guidance as to how Allied IC's attaching to units in Reserve, or even using transports in Reserve operate. Matters aren't helped when they do things like make Sang Priests grant FNP to their unit, not to just Blood Angel models. They keep printing loopholes, so one can only assume they're either A: incredibly inept or B: want those interactions to continue. The Angel Wing relic for BA is another classic example. It's intended to keep say Sanguinary Guard alive when they Deepstrike into enemy lines, but once again it's worded so it'll work on anything you attach that Priest to, including Allies. 

 

I'm quite happy for GW to pull their finger out and clear this up, one way or the other. But until they do, just like with the Psychic phase debate, it's gonna remain an open issue. 

[Everon]

So I'm at work hanging about 50 feet in the air installing lights on this building when an idea popped into my mind of possible allies. Its probably not a centstar but curious on thoughts of how effective it would be.

 

Pit Bro Cap Stern with a squad of Raptor LotD. So you get issadons bonuses then a lots with all bolters as rending has special / heavy weapons with slow and purposeful that ignores cover and very good chance of 2++ for the squad

[tomsev]

No ind characters can join legion of the damned... sorry bout that...

[Frater Cornelius]

Also, LotD can never benefit from Chapter Tactics.