The Quest for Purity

[Frater Cornelius]

So, here it is again. My favourite topic. Now, my SW + WS combo was very strong and wiped the floor with my enemies and won me our little tournament. But here is the thing, it was not fun at all. Despite being a WAAC guy, I do enjoy a good game like most players do and looking back, only 2 units carried the entire game: Centurions deleted a unit and after that it was the Wolf Lord who basically carried the game. It felt.. cheap, the WS addition that is.

Now, I could write a book about why I dislike allies...

But in the end, it is not so much the list, but also the players skill. I consider myself a good general but with one major flaw: I am very close minded, VERY. There are units I never use(d) and mantras a stick with almost blindly.

Now my quest is it to forget every 'rule' I learned and rediscover our Codex with a fresh eye.

With that in mind, here are the unit I never used in 7th edition:

Long Fangs, Dreads, PAWG (without bikes), Wolf Priests, Lone Wolves, Rune Priests

And here are the units I never used during my entire SW career:

TDAWG, Arjac, Land Raiders, Whirlwinds, Lords/PL that are not mounted on TWM

While there are a few threads hanging around, would some of you quickly describe your feeling about the above units and possible combos (no formations) that you see hidden there. I am particularly eying TDA and Land Raiders. I still intend to play CoF.

That is quite a gap and I intend to close it, but I certainly won't be trying to reinvent the wheel, just use it more productively. I'll be open to any input, even if at first glance I see it as a bad idea.

My next tournament will be a pure SW list and I am hoping that you might help me with that

[FenrisWolf]

I like dreadnoughts. In the CoF I particularly like Bjorn's formation. 5++ for each dread!

[Karack Blackstone]

So, here it is again. My favourite topic. Now, my SW + WS combo was very strong and wiped the floor with my enemies and won me our little tournament. But here is the thing, it was not fun at all. Despite being a WAAC guy, I do enjoy a good game like most players do and looking back, only 2 units carried the entire game: Centurions deleted a unit and after that it was the Wolf Lord who basically carried the game. It felt.. cheap, the WS addition that is.

Now, I could write a book about why I dislike allies...

But in the end, it is not so much the list, but also the players skill. I consider myself a good general but with one major flaw: I am very close minded, VERY. There are units I never use(d) and mantras a stick with almost blindly.

Now my quest is it to forget every 'rule' I learned and rediscover our Codex with a fresh eye.

With that in mind, here are the unit I never used in 7th edition:

Long Fangs, Dreads, PAWG (without bikes), Wolf Priests, Lone Wolves, Rune Priests

And here are the units I never used during my entire SW career:

TDAWG, Arjac, Land Raiders, Whirlwinds, Lords/PL that are not mounted on TWM

While there are a few threads hanging around, would some of you quickly describe your feeling about the above units and possible combos (no formations) that you see hidden there. I am particularly eying TDA and Land Raiders. I still intend to play CoF.

That is quite a gap and I intend to close it, but I certainly won't be trying to reinvent the wheel, just use it more productively. I'll be open to any input, even if at first glance I see it as a bad idea.

My next tournament will be a pure SW list and I am hoping that you might help me with that

The Ven Dread with Great Shield and Dreadnought Combat Axe (the one on the box art) sounds like it will tear things apart very reliably if used correctly.

Wolf Priests paired with BC's or SkyClaws and a WGPL in either version presents massive numbers of attacks, as well as mobility if a transport or the Jump Packs are used. Take a LRC for the WP and BC's pack and toss that massive hammer out onto the battlefield and it will likely hurt, if not tie up whatever it is fighting quite well.

Long Fangs are not as "must have" as before, however they remain a pretty decent choice, the same as any other unit in HS choice competition. Anti PA units will tear them up; by comparison, anti vehicle stuff can make short work of a Predator of any pattern or Vindicator or Whirlwind to choice.

TDA WG seem like a weak slot, however such effective TDA delivery systems as Stormwolves and / or LRC's make up for this fragile state of having such a nice armor save and so few wounds. For a near steal in price, they can do a great deal of harm, if one learns the correct tactics with them. I personally don't know many, however treat them as Siege Infantry or Heavy Armor PA units, and the approach should start to form in your mind.

Rune Priests for so few points are amazing, comparible to a SM Librarian, and have arguably better options. Powers are different, and as far as things go with what to use, that's more feel or go for what's out of the BRB and try things out. Rune Priests with Psychic Hoods and Runic weapons can really put the hurt down. Njal is someone you will need to figure out for yourself.

I'm just one opinion on all this; take as one will.

[Crusader Bob]

Personally i'm intrigued by lone wolves. There's a random number of them you can field depending on the other slots and points allowed, but in a pinch they can be geared toward everything. With a little investment (say 60ish points) with TDA and melta stuff one could deep strike them as vehicle breakers, or gear them more towards melee oriented harassers. 

What solos are on Warmachines if you catch my drift. Plus, they are very tough to kill. 

 

Bear in mind that i'm not a very seasoned general, my lists are usually more on the parade than efficent side of the coin.

[Rift Blade]

With the points reduction WGTDA & LR combo are even more attractive. Gear them for assault & you have a fire magnet. Use these guys as a hammer so the rest of your army can do its job of winning you the game. Throw Arjak in there & it just gets sick. I've had Blood Crushers & big mobs of boys run away from this unit. The only drawback is they are vulnerable to mass fire. The age old adage quantity has a quality all its own. The nice thing about this combo is you can play around with it by adding the Wolf Priest(for healing & prefered enemy) or RP for possible psychic help. Obvious drawback, lot of pts in one basket. Coupled with some of the new formations and well you have alot of choices. Good Luck.

[CatSmasher]

I played a list recently that looked roughly like this

 

Stormwolf with termies, and RP

LR with termies and Ulrik

Thunderwolves 

Stormfang

 

I overwhelmed him with high armour, and played a redeemer in case his fusion suits dropped too close. Two fliers was too much, and I used the low flying profile of the stormships to protect the transport from the sky ray.

 

I liked that it made a lot of his guns useless at key points in the game.

 

Ulric made sure no one lived through combat. It was a fun list to run and felt fluffy enough to make me feel good.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

As stated in here have you used jump packs? I know you didn't list it but I would be surprised as nearly all non Blood angels players seem to dislike Jump Packers. Anyway you could try and use them instead of Thunder Wolves. Not nearly as effective of course but for a quick reaction force they would probably do well.

 

TDA I would say that using them to deep strike now is probably pretty decent along with mix and match weapons. Think of them like you would a Sternguard in pod unit. Three or four combi plasma or three combi melta's let you erase a tank and the 2+ armor is more survivable and now no pod is needed so that gives you a nice fairly cheap DS and and erase or hurt and then hopefully live awhile. Add to this a TDA lone wolf with hand to hand and I bet your opponent waste's and obscene amount of firepower/effort on a fairly cheap two unit.

 

Now keep in mind I haven't gotten to play with the new dex or a single game of 7th so you can flush if you want but that's how I see the TDA being best utilized. Or a fully tricked hand to hand in one of the flyers for Assault ramp goodness.

 

I see a Wolf lord on foot either outflanking with Grey Hunters or in a pod with WG or smaller Grey hunter squad.

[Frater Cornelius]

You may think I am crazy but recently I found myself disappointed with TWC. They did fine but in the end, nothing that could not have been done by a shooty unit of the same cost with no casualties.
The only TWC unit that actually performed superb was the Lord and he always went solo. So there is nothing stopping me from tossing him into a unit of 15 Fenrisian Wolves and use my FA slot for something else, like speeders or something.
Maybe I am not spending enough points on them? That is sort of the thing, I am scared of spending more than 150 points on a unit because like this because it will hurt when they die. And lets not kid ourselves, 3+/3++ T5 is far from invincible. I have lost more TWC to bolter and lasgun fire than anything else.

As for LR and TDA.. I do not have a plan on how to use them. They always strike me as a prime target to kill turn 1 and cripple the enemy and frankly, I have never really been scared by Terminators of Land Raider when facing them.
So, some actual hints on what uses those two units have, beyond the 'TDA charge from LR' would be awesome. Because right now I feel their job can be done better by PAWG but maybe I just lack imagination.

Also they are fragile for their cost. This could be tackled 1 in 2 ways. Either have a tanking character up front (like a WGBL) or have them as cheap as possible to make losses manageable.

[Baulder]

In 99% of the lists I've run there is a wolf priest. Most recently it is often Ulric (since the points jump is not so bad). Alternative'y I have one modelled on a bike that does a great job (2+/4++ and gives the bike units fnp, preferred enemy and someone who can soak the odd few wounds for them or bounce them if needs be). Personally, with the changes to the psychic phase in 7th and the reliability of casting things like prescience dropping substantially, I find that preferred enemy has got even stronger and with Ulric's bubble (PE everything) it really does mean that he will fit well in almost any army. If you often run TDAWG in a LR try throwing a WP in with them and see how you get on. You'll be surprised at how much of a boost it can be, plus if you have Arjac in there you're to going to be likely to get challenged out.

 

For TWC I'm like you I think, often disappointed. Though I recently figured this is because I run the pack in small numbers or as a solo pack. Until I've got more I wont be likely to run these in a list. That said if you get a fair few bikes in there it can help to take the eat off them a bit.

 

Lone wolves for me have always been a fun character that I drop in if/when I have the points. Never really built them into a list all that much, though when I have without TDA they die far too fast and move far too slow. The new TDA deep striking has really boosted these for us. Indeed, now that they can potentially get into the enemy deployment zone on turn 2 that really has helped them out. So I'd be inclined to try them out a bit more, they make decent enough tar-pit units on paper (without breaking the bank) and have potential to go tank hunting (though not as much as they used to).

 

Dreads I like, a lot, but don't have enough. I think if you're planning on taking 1 you need to take a couple, can't say much more as I've not run them often enough.

[Frater Cornelius]

The thing is, to make the TWC into a killer unit, you must invest at the very lest 250 points into one unit that can die to a tactical squad. I will try without them for now.

As for my plans, I think I will shift away from my usual 'fast melee beta strike' setup and explore shooting some more. Unlike other SM, our shooty units can be very choppy if need be.

My set HQ will be the Lord with his pack of hounds. If I take 10 hounds, that unit clocks in at 320 points. I'll take it from here. The new theme will be along the lines of a rapid response force. Less proactive and more reactive. I want to try a few drop pods, less to build pressure and more for landing on key points across the map, rhinos obviously. As for the actual units, I want to try PAWG (probably with either bikes or JP), TDAWG, GH, LF, Land Speeders and possily dreads (TWC only if there is space and spare points).

Those starting on the board turn 1 must weather the enemies alpha strike and then move on and do their thing. TDA will drop in turn 2 to reinforce some units. I might even include a handful of homers to make that happen. So basically an army that does not win through brute force but rather by outplaying the enemy and bring him down by shooting and assaulting when needed (WG still have loads of attacks).

 

I played a similar list setup with Tau, but SW is a very different army. But I have limited experience with TDAWG in those setups. I might even invest in WGBL in TDA. Still, I do not want to get too expensive (the reason I am reluctant to invest into a Land Raider). Ultimately I feel that Infantry lists will be more effective than a SW mech list. Feel free to correct me and/or suggest unit setups for that shooty business.

 

Well, obviously there is not enough place for everything above, but you get the idea.

[Baulder]

Personally I've never had much luck out shooting opponents (over long range) now that could be down to my local meta or just that I don't play that kind of army well. My success has often been in closing the gap (pods predominantly for this) and hitting them hard with midrange fire-power (plasma and some melta, but mostly plasma) . Followed up with assault forces to mop them up.

 

I'll be interested to hear how you get on and any tips you pick up along the way. Consider Ulric, even for sitting back and shooting. 2/3 unit of long fangs will get a lot out of having preferred enemy. Alternatively, the cheaper option could be to drop a ammo dump down in your zone to help with the re-rolls (only to hit though).

[Frater Cornelius]

Long Fangs are certainly a part of it, but I am not trying to dominate long ranged shooting. That is the domain of Tau, Necrons and IG.

What we do well is definitely mid ranged shooting, assaulting. What I am trying to do is focus less on offensive assault and more on defensive assault and mostly rapid fire dakka.

My main problem right now when creating a list like that is that I tend to slip into either DA (bolter banner) or UM (drop pod army) territory.

It's finding that unique SW edge to gain the advantage over those lists is what eludes me.

[Baulder]

grey hunters would be a big part of it then by the sounds of it. They get pricey fast but if you're looking for midrange punch with decent defensive assault capabilities then that would be a good place to start. Over on the GH thread I think a lot of folks have discussed their merits. Personally I usually drop them in pods by the 10 with melta/plasma. You may also want to consider the WGPL upgrade to unlock the third special weapon and could even consider a FA drop pod with a WP/RP combo in so that they can move into the squad as they disembark so you don't lose space in the first pod.

 

Rhino units can then move forward to hold/clear middle objectives (flamers do a good job here against the right force).

[Crusader Bob]

If you're looking for tons of midrange dakka what about going a little more mechanized? Crusaders, land speeders, razorbacks full of assault cannons, heavy bolters, hurricane bolters.

Would be an impressive amount of fire 

[Frater Cornelius]

Land Speeders are a solid 'yes'. Razors might get a pass but probably with TLLC loadout. I do not like the Crusader however. It costs an aweful lot of points just to go down to a drop pod, gauss or grav weapons.

But, there is the problem again. All of that is done better with UM because of Tigurius (psy and warlord trait), sternguard and the tactical doctrine.

[Crusader Bob]

You're not making it easy uh? "Sadly" as the rules are now there are few things shooting wise that UM don't do better than other marines. Is hard to one up them there, but i think it was about time for the blue boys to shine.

 

Now, on topic, if speeders are a yes and razorbacks a solid maybe, then what do we have? TDAWGs, you've said you want them, so maybe a 10 strong unit with double assault cannon? I'd try to suggest HB long fangs, but that's again UM territory. 

 

I cannot agree with your review of crusaders but i'm a templar at heart, and not a very competitive one, so meta and style have a bigger part than opinions here.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, in the end, I do not have to beat UM in shooting if I can surpass them in other fields. In the end, the assault phase is an intergral part of SW and I am not going to skip it.

But the issue is that all of my SW lists were 93% melee and literally no ranged. What I want to do is expand my ranged portfolio so that it is able to support my melee core. Without allies.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, here is a first attempt:

 

Jarl

• TWM, SS, Runic Armour, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

 

Murderfang

• Pod

 

5 WG Bikers

• 3 Combi-Plasmas, 1 Melta Bomb

5 WG Bikers

• 3 Combi-Meltas

 

5 PAWG

• 5 Combi-Plasmas

• Pod

5 PAWG

• 3 Combi-Meltas

• Pod

 

3x 5 GH

• WGPL w/ combi-plasma, 1 Plasmagun

• Razorback w/ TLAC

 

3 TWC

• PL w/ SS, Fist + Bolter, CCW + Pistol

 

1 Land Speeder

• HB, Typhoon ML

 

1850 to the point.

 

It's fairly MSU, decent alpha strike and decent charge turn 2. Now, this list is not refined at all, but it is a first attempt. I might switch things around and maybe rebuild it from scratch. But as of right now, any opinions?

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I know you said drop pod is the UM domain but honestly I don't see it. Drop pod Grey Hunters seems so much better to me. Mass drop in with some dread support give the Grey Hunters a Banner and keep them close for the +1A and then maybe throw in Ulric for the Preferred enemy bubble. I see the Uber Grit Grey Hunters as the perfect drop pod bunch. If you don't want to give it up outflank a squad with the Wolf Lord and then you can "pinch" the enemy in. If you don't get charged then you have a bunch of at least 2A if not 3A and then you own assault. Let the bikers be your quick reaction and allow murderfang and another dread to give you some fire support. UM just don't have it I think. Tactical Doctrine is awesome but for a full pod list I don't see many people beating the Wolves

[Frater Cornelius]

I know you said drop pod is the UM domain but honestly I don't see it. Drop pod Grey Hunters seems so much better to me. Mass drop in with some dread support give the Grey Hunters a Banner and keep them close for the +1A and then maybe throw in Ulric for the Preferred enemy bubble. I see the Uber Grit Grey Hunters as the perfect drop pod bunch. If you don't want to give it up outflank a squad with the Wolf Lord and then you can "pinch" the enemy in. If you don't get charged then you have a bunch of at least 2A if not 3A and then you own assault. Let the bikers be your quick reaction and allow murderfang and another dread to give you some fire support. UM just don't have it I think. Tactical Doctrine is awesome but for a full pod list I don't see many people beating the Wolves

 

Tac doctrine is only one part of the game. They also have Sternguard with their special ammo and the bloody damn Tigurius with his Warlord Trait and damn near guaranteed Prescience. GH are superior because they can get more special weapons on board and they are superior when it comes to assault, but standing one turn in the open ends badly in most cases.

 

Though I see what you mean, we have superior dreads and our charge is devastating and with a threat overload we can manage to present more threats than the enemy can deal with. Have GH in pods arriving, have Murderfang, have maybe another Dread, have WG bikes thundering forward and maybe a few Razorbacks providing fire support and a solo Lord looking to punch someone.

I also see one issue, podding GH and getting Razors requires at least 5 Troop slots. If I want to stick with CoF, I only have 3 Troops but 8 Elites, so some of them would have to become WG, but the price difference is negligible.

 

I think this is getting somewhere.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Exactly. While Sternguard ammo is awesome (DA and SW part of me is so jealous) you have the WG in PA for Combi goodness and honestly GH when podded in are just begging to be charged. Honestly what opponent wants to sit in rapid fire range? Tau are probably the only ones and even then you just charge them next turn. Tiggy is awesome but he is one character. If a general's strategy revolves around one character what kind of general is he/she?

 

My take is put your GH within 12" by pod. You get a nice alpha strike. Then you leave your opponent a crappy choice. Stand there and get shot twice for their chance to shoot you once or charge your 2A possibly 3A GH's. If the match up isn't good then great use the pods as terrain funnels and deploy the GH's on the board.

 

3 Troops is fine. Three GH should make a solid base. If you want one squad as an escort then just go two squads but I would say all three would be a perfect firebase midfield set up. WG in two pods or on bikes to taste. Murderfang and the other Dread gives you five pods right off the bat with a  solid support pair coming in afterwards. 7 pods is also doable if you want to really MSU the board. Me I think 5-7 pods with whatever you think you need. Single lord on TWM for lulz and let the rest shoot the you know what out of stuff. Plasma out the wazoo with a plasma pistol if you have points to give it a 7 plasma shot alpha strike. PE from Ulric really helps with this arena as well. Meltaguns for your next turn charge are also nice but of course that's your meta/taste.

 

I wouldn't do razors for fire support. I'd use a Pred. Better armor and no troop requirement. More expensive true but you should be able to fit five pods and 2 Pred's with some bike support in 1850 I would think. If you want assault cannons then I'd say go with the WG or Dread. Helfrost I have no idea how it is working as I haven't played yet with the new dex.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'll try to punch something together. The reason I like Razors is because they can go after objectives as well. Sure, Preds do that too, but a dread Pred hurts way more if you ask me. I would not go for 5-7 pods, to be perfectly honest, because that makes the list way to one dimensional. If you are facing a very fast army, after you land, how will you go after objectives? You will be stuck there.

I would 5 pods MSU or 3 pods full units. Combi weapons are expensive as hell though so if everything else fails, I might need to consider WUD as opposed to COF. I can get a similar Lord done, even though he will be I1 and more expensive, but gets more attacks done.

I agree on Ultragrit being superior for the drop, which is why I get the WG in pods. Let's compare costs:

6GH (1 WGPL) with 1 plasma 1 combi plasma in pod = 164

6PAWG with 2 combi plasmas in pod = 163.

Same amount of attacks, Ld9 even without sarge. Now, I can increase the impact by playing 5WG with 5CP, resulting at 175 points for a much greater impact.

11 points for 3 more plasmas on alpha strike? Yes, please. Sure, I'll lose the subsequent ones but by then they are either dead or in melee anyway.

3 of them result in 3 pods clocking in at 525. 2 plasma units 1 melta unit. Toss in Murderfang and we are at 695 and 4 pods. I would squeeze in one more. I was considering BlizzDread, adding another 180, getting up 5 pods at 875 points. Though I am not sold on BlizzDread yet, maybe I'll squeeze in another unit.

Either way, that leaves us at around 950-1000 points of units supporting the drop and being in charge of the midfield and the Wolf Lord. The Lord clocks in at 240.

So, what other units are there? They need to be fast and they need to be able to either do some dakka and hang around in the midfield or do some choppa and support the T2 charge, optimally both.

There we have several options:

5GH with plasma in a TLAC Razor - 160 each (180 with WGPL w/ CP)

Land Speeder Typhoon - 75 each

5 Bikes with 2 combi weapons and a melta bomb = 150 each

And there is still the question about escort for the Lord. I few dogs wouldn't hurt.

In my eyes there is too many points invested in the initial drop. I could beef up the WG, drop one of them and drop BlizzDread and get down to 3 pods, but get more GH, Speeders and Dog escort for the Lord. Or possibly a TWC unit (or IP with CW).

Loads of options, we just need to be careful not to forget the melee component because that is what sets us apart from boring UM and their Sternguard spam.

More opinions welcome

Edit: inb4 drop Wolf Lord: No. He is THE best performing HQ choice I have played out of all the codecies (and I played all but 5). He alone can put a lot of hurt on the army. Essentially, the rest of the army just softens up units and removes biggest threats, basically preparing for his arrival.

[Baulder]

I'd consider dropping the extra weapons on the bikes. While it is nice to have more fire power, there there is a big chance they will be jinking and you run the risk of either missing or not firing (I know when I see grav bikes I shoot to make them jink, combi would be no different). Maybe worth having them geared as hunting packs with some special ccws. Also the pod with 3 combi meltas can give you a saving, swap in 3 TDAWG with combi meltas. If it is a throw away unit they may surprise you and survive long enough to provide an over watch soaking unit or tarpit some weak infantry.

[Frater Cornelius]

That idea with the bikes is a fair observation. I suppose 1 member can get a claw or something and they just assist with bolter fire. I do not think that anything slower than that is worth it because they will primarily hunt tanks and 3+ infantry or worse. The elite stuff is up to the Lord and the drop pods.

Speaking of pods, I am still not quite content with the shooty component. I like the idea of 5man units in TLAC Razors, but I feel that those 5 combi drops are a bit unreliable. I have not tested it yet though, maybe I am wrong.

In the worst case scenario I rethink the strategy and drop the TLAC Razors in favour of a bigger drop and rely on bikes and speeders only to hold the midfield (even though I dislike the idea because it takes away from my beloved mobility in favour of a high risk strategy that might not always work).

[Baulder]

5 combis in a drop pod can be brutall my suggestion was only for the squad where you've got 5 PAWG in a pod but only 3 meltas, for that you may as well drop 3 TDAWG in a pod with combi meltas for less points. As for the razors I've found they work well, especially alongside things like bikes and even more so in maelstrom missions where the MSU setup seems to thrive. If you don't get first turn and the bikes or long fangs then you'll find they won't be there long. Plus you can deploy the bios in front of the razors to give a 4+ cover and if they target the bikes you can jink, with night fighting on your side you're quids in.