The Quest for Purity

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I will say the Bikes seem a good idea and two units should be plenty of a quick reaction force for those objectives that pop up. I would not go for Pred's or Razors just because they would be one maybe two pieces of armor and honestly in what I've seen there is enough mid strength firepower it will die relatively quick. I see what you mean about the pods and the WG but I would say a full 10 man GH is better than the WG. If you want cheaper just keep out uber grit if you plan the MSU route. I personally would think the non combi's give you more flexibility. If you drop and alpha strike and get lucky and wipe a unit for next turn and want to shoot someone else your combi is used up. For Anti Tank alpha strike I'd say use the TDA WG with 3 Combi Melta's for your anti tank needs and then use the bikes for a back up Anti Tank. For speeders from what I see the Landspeeders with ML just isn't worth it unless you are taking on someone with a lot of transports.

 

I know I posted it before but a Lone Wolf in TDA is a perfect distraction unit with a few pods coming down. Deepstrike him in where your opponent must deal with him. Mobility is nice but if you have the WL on TWM and two units of bikes then you don't need anymore mobility I would think. Drop in Kill a big chunk use the Lone Wolf to give them one more thing to deal with (if you have the points). For Landspeeder I would say a multi melta and HF combo. Deepstrike in or near whatever is most beneficial at the time. I find this set up lets me have the most flexibility for cheap points. You know the thing is going to die but if you need a few extra wounds on that one unit that just didn't quite die to your initial Drop, or you need that tank to go and don't have anything close it fits perfect. Added to this the Jinx problem for Speeders and honestly I don't see a ML being a good use of points anymore but hey who am I?

 

I like the point about the combi's on the bikes. Better to give them Melta Bombs and let them just dakka with bolters and assault.

 

With all the stuff deepstriking in I'd seriously think about just TDA WG. Combi's on TDA and give your GH full plasma or meltagun and weapons as you want. Bikes with the Wolf Lord give you a nice quick force. Speeders as

[Frater Cornelius]

I meant to write 5 combi weapons. Both 5man units of PAWG have 5 combi weapons, plasma and melta respectively. It REALLY pains me to admit, but it seems that Razors are in for a cut. Shame, I always wanted to model my Wolves after a sea faring people and transports made that look nice. However, if talking on a larger scale, they are fleet based and only com back to Fenris once in a while to get some new recruits. So they launch from their ships and do lightning fast assaults just like the Raiders of old. Guess in that respect I do not need transports to represent that because what I am playing is basically the landing of my troops.

This leaves me with some more room for pods.

 

As for TDAWG... with that many pods, potentially even speeders, there are too many forces left in reserve and I will be bound to fail some 3+ rolls. In my opinion, pods is the only thing I really want to deep strike because they are safe and have stronger packages. 3 TDA with combi weapons clock in at 114 points. At 155 I can have 3 combi weapons turn 1 without reserve rolls. I feel that termicide units are only for chaos because they have little else to deep strike and kill a unit. We have pods. Still, I can see a way to make them work, though I would still prefer PA units.

 

TDA LW however might be a solid choice. They are very slow so against fast armies they will be a waste of space because they can not score. However, just a regular dude with TDA, stormbolter and power weapon comes at 55 points. Having 2 of those might make for a fun time. However, if the points run out, they will be the first on the chopping block.

 

We all agreed on the Lord, the Bikes and the Speeders (btw, I prefer Typhoon because of the range. They are annoying but they are rarely seen as a threat, but they move 12" and fire their stuff across the board. That makes them perfect objective capper as opposed to a suicide unit).

Lord + 6 Wolves, 2*5 bikes w/ 1 bomb and 2 typhoon speeders are 706 points. This is basically the mobile force that will start on the ground 90% of the time.

 

This leaves us with 1144 points for either more stuff on the ground or only for the podding force. It does feel a bit empty down there though, so maybe not everything on pods.

How about WGBL on bikes for the biker unit? He costs 116 with 2 claws, bike and 2 wolves. Add him to the biker unit with and get going. You have 4 more wounds, 2 of which are wolves and in the end only WGBL has to reach melee. He can also split from the bikers so that they can assault separate targets (like WGBL goes into 3+ units and bikes kill hordes).

Or I could invest 25 more points and put him on a TWM with 1 claw and a SS. That way he has 3 wounds, same amount of attacks, rending shred, 3+/3++ and 2 wolves that take wounds off his biker unit.

 

What pods though? I think most will agree on Murderfang, though I will need to playtest him and see how effective he really is (he feels fragile). And there is also the BlizzDread. How good is he? If I take both I have 2 big threats that can not be ignored and 2 pods covered. With all f the above I would be at 1280 points. Maybe 1304 if I get more hounds for the Lord. Add 50 more if I decide to take WGBL on TWM.

Basically around 500 points to go.

 

Now, the pods. What goes into the other? Full 10man GH with WGPL even without ultragrit comes at 225. That is a lot. 5 gh with WGPL come at 145 points and 5 WG with 5 combi come at 175. I feel MSU is superior but I can see the merit of a 10man unit. Which of those setups do you find superior? More pods but individually less power but also fewer losses? Or maxed out power but potentially a bigger blow to your forces?

I am actually looking at up to 7 pods with MSU (dropping something to make that happen) or 5 pods and either more ground units or deep striking stuff. Or Vindicators ;)

 

This is looking good so far, soon we've analyzed our way through it and take it to the field of battle and show those cocky smurfs who the kings of pods really are. You guys are great help :D

[Carnivore]

  I don't consider myself the best player or authority on tactics by any means, so forgive me for chiming in and take anything I say with a grain of salt, but after listening to your reservations about TDA Wolf Guard, I re-read your initial post and was struck by what I believe is the reason for your frustration with them, and the one thing I feel comfortable speaking from experience on. You've never used Arjac.

 

  Arjac Rockfist is, to me, the epitome of everything I love about the Space Wolves, both in terms of the 40K universe and in actual gameplay. In-universe, even among the hulking Sons of Russ, he's a giant, bigger and stronger than everyone else. In-game, his statline (EW, S5, W2, etc.) reflects this. In-universe, he is Grimnar's champion, seeking out and destroying the most powerful of the enemy's heroes and monsters. In-game, his rules are tailored toward winning duels. He fights with a thunder hammer and a storm shield, and strikes at S10, just like Lysander. Except he can THROW that thunder hammer, because he's a Space Wolf, and Space Wolves do things their own way. Before, one of the biggest complaints against him was that he was too expensive for a character with only two wounds. Sure, he only has half the wounds Lysander does. But now, he's only half Lysander's cost. A fair trade in my opinion for a character that more often than not does exactly as much damage and is actually as durable the vast majority of the time. No other Space Marine chapter can field a character like Arjac, particularly as a non-IC unit upgrade (though you can now field him on his own, too). In my experience, whether you stick him with PA Wolf Guard (like you used to be able to do with Grey Hunters) or with TDA Wolf Guard, he completely changes the dynamic of the unit he's in. He is also, with the exception of my actual Wolf Lord, the only unit in my army that 9.5 games out of 10 makes back his points cost several times over in enemy casualties.

 

  Sorry that rambled a bit. To address actual tactics for using Arjac in 7th, I use him one of two ways, depending on what Wolf Lord I field.

 

  When I field my Terminator Wolf Lord (Chainfist/Storm Shield), Arjac is right by his side. I put them, and a few TDA Wolf Guard armed with TH/SS or CF/WC, in a Drop Pod or a Land Raider. Whether they pod in or ride in the Raider, once they disembark from their ride, simply point them at the closest, biggest threat, then let them loose. Between the Wolf Lord and Arjac, you have two of the best duelists in the game in one unit, and along with their buddies, one of the hardest CC units in the game. If I'm being objective, this set-up's main weakness is what happens after they trash whoever they just assaulted. It's painfully slow, and though you have the Storm Shields to protect them, this unit will die eventually if you leave them out of combat and exposed to enemy fire for too long. So assault, crush, then get to the nearest enemy unit, and repeat. Sounds stupidly simple, but some things don't need to be overcomplicated. I would add that the introduction of the Stormwolf ship adds another delivery option, and for less than a Land Raider, but I haven't personally used it yet so I don't want to give you inaccurate information. I expect it will become the vehicle of choice for big units of Wolf Guard, though.

 

  When I field my Thunderlord, Arjac is still with a couple (3-5) Wolf Guard buddies, only this time they are armed with combi-weapons and power axes (and 1 chainfist). If you're looking to go cheap, like I do in this set-up, pod them in, or give 1 or 2 of his packmates some TH/SS and teleport them in. In this strategy, they are a distraction/suicide unit that, more often than not, actually survives suicide missions. Most opponents ignore them for fear of the Lord and his TWC escort, until Arjac pops a tank or a MC that got too close. That gets their attention pretty quickly, and suddenly your opponent has to choose: focus their firepower on 1) the Thunderlord/TWC, 2) Arjac and his pack, or 3) your scoring units. I've played this strategy in roughly 200 games last edition, and 10 so far in this one. I can count on one hand the number of times people chose option three. The Thunderwolves and the Wolf Guard quickly made them pay for that in the body count they racked up.

 

  I hope that all made sense, and I apologize if my objectivity is compromised a bit by my love for the character. He really is something special, though, and I can honestly say many of the best laughs I've had playing the game have come courtesy of some ridiculously awesome thing Arjac did. Best of luck going forward, mate. Hope you find something new to love about our Wolves!

[Frater Cornelius]

Hell, having love for certain characters and models is what makes a Space Wolf. There is a reason why my Wolf Lord has a name and is in every list that I write ;)

Arjac is an interesting possibility. Taking off from above where 3 infantry pods were missing (if I decide to take murderfang and blizz dread, still looking for feedback), I could run a 5man PAWG team in a pod and add Arjac to them.

Arjac costs 5 points less than 2 TDA lone wolves with melta bombs but he has a good ranged attack, better save and is not at the mercy of regular deep striking.

I am reluctant to pay a lot of characters but I might consider him instead of Lone Wolves just because he can be around chucking hammers and insults at people turn 1 when arriving with PAWG.

That almost settles pod no.3 (unless I do not take the dreads).

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

My problem with MSU GH is that they will be in range turn 1 or 2 more than likely. They will die to easily to 5 man squads. Full ten man lets the uber grit get the most effectiveness. Along with a banner and Ulric (if you choose them) maximizes the effects. 3 Full ten man squads isn't too big in a 1850 and gives you a nice midfield presence I think. as stated above. TDA squad/Character bikes and TWC Lord gives plenty for the enemy to worry about.

 

I would say Ven Dreads and if you like assault cannons Heavy flamer and Asscan always worked well for me if I dropped them as support next to a Tac Squad to help. If I felt light on Anti Tank I dropped in TLLC Dread or Multi Melta. I hate the throw away unit though. Support for my GH or Tac Squads is how I would use them. if you don't like that then you could try the TDA in a pod that would help your too much in reserves problem. Also you might try jump packs WG or Skyclaws for a nice blender unit around 180-200pts depending on loadout. One more quick reaction force along with bikes and TWC Lord. In fact thinking about it they would probably be unmoletsted for a long time with all that on the table plus the GH and pod coming in.

[Frater Cornelius]

The problem with full GH is that I would be missing 160-180 points in total (80-90 points for each GH unit, depending on weapons) to make that happen. And that is not counting ultragrit.

What would I drop for that? Arjac/Lone Wolves? I am reluctant. One of the WGBL and the dogs (have the Lord ride with the other bikes)? Not sure because reduces my assaulting force and field presence. The Land Speeders? Not sure.

 

I could drop bikers and speeders, get TWC instead of bikers (same price) and upgrade the 2 GH units to full strength and keep Arjac/Lone Wolves with the PAWG as a high power removal.

 

Getting 3 full GH and the 2 dreads would require dropping Arjac/Lone Wolves, the PAWG in pod and another 35 points somewhere (probably a Land Speeder, that way I have 40 extra point for either a banner on GH or buy Runic Armour for both WGPL).

It would be an option, but it is boring. Whether the alpha strike is stronger depends on the opponent (whether bolter fire is better or rather combi plasmas and a s10 hammer).

 

Still looking for feedback. GH MSU but more units in other slots? Full GH but less fast units?

Or possibly forget about GH and focus on WG MSU combi weapon drops with all the other toys?

All have their upsides but I am not sure if it comes down to playstyle or if there is a more 'optimal' choice.

 

In the end it comes down to what I need more of. Bolter fire? Then 3*10 GH and 1 Speeder.

Special Weapon fire? Drop all GH and get WG with combi weapons and arjac.

Or a middle ground with 2*10 GH and PAWG with Arjac (or lone wolves), although that is the most expensive combo.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Yeah my friend I think you might just have to try it out some and see which you prefer. Personally I don't think the speeders are worth the points but to each their own.

 

Optimal choice? Not sure there is one as you said. I don't know just thinking about the troops being that low makes me cringe. I would put the wolves in with a pack of Fen wolves or bikes. I see your point about the dreads but I would drop them and keep the GH full packs if you were going to Pod them in. TWC might be able to pass on with 2 units of bikes and a PAWG Arjac unit to help delete the tough stuff. I think play testing is going to be required from here honestly. If you do let us know how the units do for you please. I'm very interested to know.

DoC

[Baulder]

As for TDAWG... with that many pods, potentially even speeders, there are too many forces left in reserve and I will be bound to fail some 3+ rolls. In my opinion, pods is the only thing I really want to deep strike because they are safe and have stronger packages. 3 TDA with combi weapons clock in at 114 points. At 155 I can have 3 combi weapons turn 1 without reserve rolls. I feel that termicide units are only for chaos because they have little else to deep strike and kill a unit. We have pods. Still, I can see a way to make them work, though I would still prefer PA units.

Sorry for the confusion I was meaning you could replace the 5 in the pod with 3 TDAWG in the pod, so you get them turn one. Also don't forget or underestimate the locator beacons, they do a world of good for deep striking reserve units.

 

Like the Caliban Sgt said you really need to try different combos and see what works for you, you could spend all day trying to find the perfect list but that is just because most of the codex is viable so there is often a bit of overlap in the roles.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, certainly I will try it. But this has been great so far. I am confident that something good can come out of it ;)

[Baulder]

Indeed, you'll have to share any experience you get too because it will ve very helpful I think.

[Frater Cornelius]

First I toss up a few example lists and pick one which will be the first to try. After that it will simply adjusting and all that jazz.

[Frater Cornelius]

Edit: I reworked the list with the help of some guys in our FLGS and here is what we arrived at.

 

CoF Detachment: 1850

 

Jarl

• RA, SS, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

WGBL

• SS, WC, TWM

Ulrik the Preferred Enemy Giver

 

2x 5 WG Biker

• 1 Melta Bomb, 1 Power Weapon

5 PAWG

• 5 combi-plasmas, pod

5 PAWG

• 5 combi-meltas, pod

BlizzDread (may be changed to Murderfang if he works for me, costs are almost the same)

• pod

 

2x 10 GH

• WGPL, 2 Melta, 1 combi-melta, pod

 

2x 5 Fenrisian Wolves

 

Things that may change: WG Bike loadout, I might drop Ulrik in favour of another WGBL on TWM, might exchange BlizzDread with Murderfang

 

The reason I decided to go wit Ulrik is that the alpha strike will be beyond what any Ultramarine can hope to achieve. Preferred enemy on 5 raid fire plasmas and 2 full melta gh units? Ouch. Of cause, I had to give up field presence, so I have to see how the Bikes and the WGBL do before I make the ultimate judgement.

Bikes instead of TWC because bikes can shoot and can boost and are cheap enough to hold objectives. TWC are tougher but they need to be in melee to do their job and are thus not as flexible.

The Lord is a choppa machine, enough said. WGBL is cheap and he will rip most MEQ (or weaker) units a few new ones. Wolves for both because extra wounds are awesome.

Moving on, I took the advice and got 2 full GH units because with Ulrik the bolter fire will be overwhelming. They have meltas because usually you do not need many melta shots and they are cheaper. PAWG are the ultimate removal unit. 5 rapid fire plasmas with preferred enemy will put a hurt on most things. The other unit has meltas and is there in case i face super heavies, squadrons or anything that can not be dealt with 3 melta shots. I might change them back to plasmas though to get an even harder impact turn 1.

The Dread is a curious choice. I want to drop him turn 2 most of the time. But, he is there in case I need to kill immobile heavy stuff like a Thunderfire Cannon, Broadsides, Devastators or something like that. With his shield he can weather intercept and a shooting phase. He can also go after Leman Russ tanks or anything not fast enough to escape him.

 

So, what do you think. I need advice on

1) the Biker loadout

2) on the quality of the drops

3) whether Ulrik is worth dropping the second WGBL for

4) whether I should drop both GH units and instead play 4x 7 PAWG with 3-4 combi weapons each in pods

 

Any other comments and ideas are most welcome. This coming Tuesday I will take the first draft out for a spin.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I like it. I would keep Ulric instead of the other WGBL. One plus the Lord should be good. Also do you have Uber Grit on the GH? If not I would get it for sure. I also would add some PW and Banner if you can scrounge the points. I think two squads need to have all the help they can get honestly. Ulric will be awesome here as well. Add uber grit and the banner and keep them close you've got 20 guys with potential 4 Attacks standing still. I mean 80 WS4 Attacks without charging plus PE is almost death company territory. Not quite though.

 

For the bikes I would attempt to get one or two more Melta Bombs per unit. Can't hurt to have the option at least.

 

Honestly I would drop the dread. While I love them it being the only piece of armor on the board is going to make it the priority of every gun over S5 I would think. I usually bring at least two if I'm podding them in. If you drop it you still want the pod so you can take either a TDAWG in the pod (Keeps the reserve problem down) or another 5 PAWG with combi weapons and maybe a foot WGBL if your just dying to have another? Last thought I have for the pod would be a 5 man GH with whatever you think you could use in it.

 

I know you would like to drop the GH for PAWG MSU in pod but honestly I don't think MSU pod would work all that great. It gives your opponent too many turns to wipe an easy PA unit out and those units will be close enough they will be in range. One or two squads for specialists or later game MSU objective grab but I wouldn't do it en masse more than three pods.

[Frater Cornelius]

On the one hand, I sort of agree on the dread. Taking 2 would turn this into a beta strike list, but I want my pod alpha strike. On the other hand, a dread can land safely once bikes and GH have engaged the AT units or in line of sight. He is a bullet magnet and with the 3++, he can take it. I would rather have the enemy shoot at my dread all the time and leave my GH alone. Against lists with cover camping weapon platforms or heavy weapons he can really turn up the pressure a notch.

 

On the GH, I wouldn't want to go overboard with them. They cost 215 (180+pod) per unit. Adding another 18 points per unit for ultragrit, 25 for a banner and 15 for an axe would require 91 extra points. That's a lot just for 2 units. Remember, once landing, the enemy can echo the pod and chances are that either Ulrik and his WG will die or that only around 5 GH per unit remain.

 

I'll rethink my dread policy and if I find a suitable (and cheaper) alternative, I might give some more toys to the GH. Unlikely it will be much cheaper though.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

That might just be a personal preference difference there but I would say let us know how it goes after Tuesday. Give us a unit performance breakdown if you don't mind. Would love to know how things work out especially with the dread.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is what I am planning to do. I will also draw comparisons to possible allied combination. After all, the whole point of this thread is to find a way to play SW as a pure force, rather than getting cheap allies

Edit: I had 4 unassembled pods lying here... god, and I thought building Rhinos and Chimeras was bad Oo

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, I had my first game today. I rolled abysmally bad. I mean really horrible. The opponent had some luck as well. Odds were not in my favour.

With that in mind, let us take a look.

 

My list:

COF detachment

 

Jarl, krakenbone sword, ss, ra, fellclaw's teeth, 2 wolves

 

5 PAWG, 5 CP, pod

5 PAWG, 5 CM, pod

axe/shield dread, pod

2x 5 WG bikes, melta bomb, power weapon

 

3 TWC, 1 ss

8 Fenrisian Wolves

 

CAD

Ulrik

2x 10 GH, 2 melta, wgpl, combi melta, pod

 

He played razorspam. 4x 5 gh in TLAC razors, 4 RP, 6 long fangs with MM in rhino, 3 twc, IP with 2 wolves, 15 bloodclaws footslogging, 2 solo melta speeders, 3 solo servitors for scoring and a whirlwind.

 

Dawn of War deployment and we drew one objective at the start of our first, after that the limit increased as the turns went on.

 

He rolled on biomancy and got THREE times imfeeblement... yeah, it gets worse. His trait was to reroll the D3 you get from objectives, which he did not need because out of the 3 times he could roll he got 3 right of the bat.

He was playing WUD so one priest outflanked with footclaws, one priest outflanked with a razorback. rest deployed.

 

I deployed second. My lord rolled the 'reroll a single failed save every turn' as his trait. He went with the Fenrisian Wolves. Bikes and TWC deployed just out of range of 2/3 razors.

 

His first turn, he kills a TWC with one razor, failed 2/3 wounds. A MM speeder killed one bike. Another MM speeder killed one fenrisian wolf. The other razors went 12" and did snap shots but did not do anything.

So far so good.

 

First turn, here my first mistake happened. Ulrik with plasma PAWG and a GH unit landed at his TWC. The mistake was that I dropped my other GH unit isolated to kill the WW.

Bike 1 went after the speeder, twc and bike 2 went after 2 razors.

In theory he would lose half his army now.

My shoot alpha with ulrik killed 2 twc and 1 cyber wolf. GH only managed to get 1 pen and immobilize it. One bike unit got the charge on a razor but did not kill it. Other bikes failed 6" charge on speeder by 1", TWC failed 8" charge on RB by 1" with fleet.

Fenrisian Wolves killed IP but my kick ass lord who reduces Abaddon and 15 death company solo did not kill the sarge and got stuck there for 2 more phases.

In short, first turn was disaster, I failed everything and he stopped what I did manage.

 

His second, Razor flanked automatically, claws failed the roll. He killed my TWC unit and reduced both bike units to 3 members each. He also casted enfeeblement on one bike unit.

His long fangs shot (snapshots) my GH but nothing happened. His WW also failed to do anything.

His bloody sarge still stood, although my wolves cleaned up his TWC and wolf.

 

My second. Dread comes in, PAWG do not. Dread drops infront of the flanking Razor and blocks it. Next turn they would die. My 10 GH engaged a disembarked 5man GH unit to prevent backshots on my dread.

One bike unit finishes its Razor. The enfeebled bike unit killed the speeder, it exploded and killed the 3 bikers.

Ulrik killed the long fsng rhino in melee and GH killed the LF unit. Lord finally killed the sarge and everyone but wolves moved towards the other units. Wolves moved to score.

 

His third turn, claws came automatically. His RP enfeebled my lord. One razor and its unit killed half my GH, the other GH unit got decimated by a second 5man unit and a RP.

The dread died. He fired a melta, I failed 3++, he rolled explode result, reroll with venerable, still exploded.

Last bike unit died to a lone razor. And that was it.

 

My turn 3, PAWG failed reserve roll. Nothing happened, we just moved closer to each other and I scored some objectives. Killed a servitor with shooting and Lord killed a 5man unit in melee. And a speeder died to focused drop pod fire.

 

His 4th, he enfeebled the lord, charged him and I failed 4 2+ saves out of 7 INCLUDING my reroll.

Nothing else here.

 

My 4th, PAWG arrived and 5 meltas glanced a razor to death...

 

Game ended turn 6, and all the time between now and the end was Ulrik and his PAWG fighting the claws and in the end winning the combat.

 

I won the game 12 - 10 (both has line breaker, he had warlord, i had first blood).

 

As you can see I rolled abysmally but I also did a lot of mistakes. It was a valuable lesson and I will change my list accordingly. A bit later I wilk give a unit by unit analysis.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, here is my unit-by-unit analysis:

 

HQ:

I will not touch on the Jarl. He may have failed this game due to my abysmal rolling but he has proven his worth thousands of times over.

Ulrik, however, he deserves to be talked about. He was awesome. He landed where the fighting was thickest and his bubble made the shooting amazingly strong, but he also boosted that melee engagement next to him and another behind him. He is just such a great force multiplier. He is well worth his 145 points if you have your positioning game down.

10/10 would use again

 

Elite:

Melta PAWG disappointed.

4/10 avoid. Melta GH do the same job

Plasma PAWG did a very solid job. They need Ulrik to make the most out of it but a small 5man unit can put serious hurt on a unit.

7/10 there is a similar alternative, that I feel might steal the show, but still a very solid buy

Bikes were ok, my current setup was still garbage and like that in mind I would only give them 5/10, HOWEVER I am considering a setup that might turn them up to a 7-8/10. Stay tuned for that.

BlizzDread had a very bad match-up this game and in addition to my bad rolling, I feel that I will not be rating this one. This is not an accurate representation.

 

Troops:

GH are GH, they are solid and tough.

8/10, would drop pod them again

 

Fast Attack:

TWC, TWC. I love them but this game showed me that MSU with TWC does not work. 135 points for 3 dudes with 1 SS is garbage. It is the Stormwolf syndrome all over again. You need to invest 200 points into a unit and have 2 of them to make the most of it. Right now I would give them 5/10, meh.

However, with a few good changes I feel they have 7-8/10 potential. I will not give up on them but I will reconsider how I use them.

Fenrisian Wolves. Holy Mother of Russ. Cheap as hell, marine profiles, perfect escort for the lord. They killed an IP and a TWC unit. 10 of them. 80 points took apart 300 points on the freaking charge.

12/10. Auto-include if you have a cavalry character.

 

Now, as for the game and what I would change:

 

5 drop pods might sound good but without reserve shenanigans I feel I have to minimize my reserves and increase field presence. I pure alpha strike is not in favour of SW, there is another sweet spot that eludes me. They have good alpha strike but their unit have a slightly bit different way of acting and interacting unlike Ultramarines or Tau or other shooty armies.

I feel that 3 pods is the sweet spot if playing Champions of Fenris. That is certain.

 

But is that still alpha strike? Well, bear with me. Wolves have other ways of alpha striking. Just think outside of the kennel for a moment.

In 90% of all games I did manage to pull off turn 1 charges. You heard that right, first turn charges. I usually let the enemy go first. If he played an aggressive list, he needs to close the gap and I can charge him turn 1. Against another alpha strike he lands and attacks me, but then my alpha strike lands and kills off he alpha strike so that in the end I have the upper hand. The only time I want to go first are gun lines and static lists, but those are fairly rare now with the introduction of Maelstrom.

That is the reason why I do not want to give up on TWC, because I feel that with the right gear I can pull off nice things with it.

 

So anyway, I want to limit myself down to 3 pods. Those pods need good numbers to survive, so 2 full GH with 2 meltas + 1 combi melta are basically a must. The third pod will probably be Ulrik with PAWG. That way PAWG and 1 GH can come down turn 1 and delete 1-2 units while the second GH will reinforce certain areas depending on how the game develops.

 

I am still convinced that fast units on the ground is the strongest SW domain and no army can take it away from them. With 3 pods and a very fast ground section I feel that I can pull off a variation on the traditional alpha strike (that I just made up on the spot), namely a 'localized strike'.

Let us look at UM or WS. They land all over the place and engage units that the dropped unit can take on and increase their presence on the field. That alpha strike is often very global because he can not afford to drop on one location due to the lack of mobility after the drop.

SW do not have that problem. They have very fast units that can dictate the engagements to most armies. So, 2 pods land in a not very well secured area, a gap in the army or a isolated unit. This can be anywhere because my fast units can get there turn 1 and be in shooting range and turn 2 they will be able to engage most units on the field. This allows me to isolate and overwhelm a section of the enemy's army and and take no losses in the process. After that I can abuse my numerical advantage and have my fast units roll up the enemy from that attacked flank while he needs to react and divert forces to that area.

This is something UM or WS can not pull off due to either lack of mobility (too many pods) or in case of WS, not having enough aggressive units (WS may have bikers but they do not have such excellent pressure like Fenrisian Wolves and TWC, they are more focused to hit and run tactics, not on rolling up the field).

 

There is also another way to enhance that alpha strike and breaking the flank of an enemy. You have TWC building pressure and sometimes doing a turn 1 charge and you have drop pod blocking off a section of the field/enemy army. So where do bikes come into play?

Well, let me throw a bit of maths your way:

 

5 PAWG, 5 combi-plasmas, pod = 175 points

5 WG Bikes, 5 combi-plasmas = 175 points

 

See where I am going with this? Bikes have the advantage of being able to Jink, being T5 and being extremely mobile. They can sometimes support the dropping alpha strike, and when the enemy gets to close, they too can benefit from Ulrik.

 

So, this is my new plan. I will drop the dread in the pod and a 5man PAWG unit and possibly some more upgrades somewhere. Instead I will exchange the power weapons on the bikes for combi weapons (not sure if I am going to give them 5 or maybe a bit less) and use the remaining points to beef up the TWC and give them staying power. They are strong if you commit to them.

 

I will try and have a new and improved list up soon. Until then, tell me what you think. Does it sound legit? Or am I drunk?

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Sounds like a rough game. There isn't much that you can do if the dice are against you. Congrats on pulling out the win. If you drop the PAWG in the DP, where would Ulrik ride? He is an awesome force multiplier as you have stated before.

[Frater Cornelius]

I only drop 1PAWG. There will still be another PAWG and 2 GH units.

[Baulder]

Aye sounds like you had a tough fight on your hands, but did well with the result. Personally I normally run 3 pods as you say with two 'mini alpha-strike' units and then I cut the third unit size a bit because I use this third pod as an object securing/clearing unit because you often cannot rely on them to arrive in time for a specific target. In my experienced 2 pods need to be focused on relatively close targets so as not to piecemeal yourself. They also do well as a delay/disruption unit that help give your ground units time to cross the board. 

 

At this stage I'm not quite convinced about combi plasmas on bikes just because you really need to close that ground in the first turn for them to be of use. If you are firing at max range or get stuck into combat then they are wasted points. As you are dropping a melta unit why not consider gearing them with a powerfist and a couple of melta bombs and having them as a back up armour hunting and normal melee unit. That said please let me know how you get on with this idea as I am very keen to be proven wrong. On a side note I wonder if a small combi plasma unit of jump pack WG would be a happy medium here? (I've never used jump pack units myself but it could offer the movement you are looking for with a slightly cheaper unit, though you are losing T5 and jink so it is a tough one).

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, towards the end I ignored the enemy and only went for objectives

Well, the reason I like bikes is their ability to shoot without compromising mobility and vice versa.
While they do want to reach melee with GEQ and the occasional MEQ unit, they can just go for an objective and shoot instead.
They also lack fleet and charges are sometimes risky, especially turn 1 charges (unlike TWC, which pull it off most of the time). But instead they can just rapid fire into an enemy, meaning that the charge is not essential.
And finally, you get more models per unit, meaning more guns per unit and the ability to pick up combi weapons, as opposed to TWC.

With that in mind, let's take a look at my latest creation:

COF
Jarl (as above)

5 PAWG, 5 CP, Pod
2x 5 WG Bikes (no gear yet)

2x 4 TWC, 2 SS, 1 Fist
8 Fenrisian Wolves

CAD
Ulrik
2x 10 GH, WGPL, 2 melta, 1 CM, pod

This clocks in at exactly 1750 points. 100 to go. I can either increase the bike size to something like 2x7 or 3x5, add weapons to the existing ones or a mix of both (like 2x6 bikes with gear).

Bike experts, your feedback is required

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I know you love the bikes Immersturm but I really don't think you need two units of five. One unit with Combi Melta's and a PF maybe a few melta bombs for back up I think would drop them down to one unit maxed with this wargear. You've got two more units of TWC and a Jarl with Fen Wolves four fast moving units should be enough. Looking at the above list you posted I just feel there isn't enough plasma. 5 man PAWG with Ulric back up is great but I feel one more unit of at least GH or something would be good.

 

I know you don't want a reserve heavy but three pods and a small unit of TDAWG with Plasma Combi's I think would compliment this better than another unit of Bikes. If you can't get the objectives in Malestrom with Four Fast movers you probably aren't going to get them. I just can't help thinking a TDA Deepstrike would help you. I know you hate the reserve manipulation but dropping two Reserve units for one doesn't effect much in this case I don't think.

 

Overall a win with a few tactical mistakes and really bad rolling you should be happy with. Highly recommend the dropping of a bike squad........at the very least for one more TWC squad. Let us know how it works out.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, 2 TWC units beefed up should be an improvement. I used the points from the 2 pods I dropped.

 

As for the bikes.. I do not know. One unit seems sorta out there without purpose. I actually wanted to use them to make up for the deficite of plasma in the list. Something like 2x 6 bikes with 3 combi plasmas each or 2x 5 bikes with 5 CP each.

I am simply not a big fan of TDA. They deep strike too unreliable.

I might consider only 1 bike unit with 6-7 members, but I feel that this will make them a prime target.

 

I am not worried that I can not get the objectives. I like fast unit because I can instantly react to the enemy and dictake the rules of engagement.

The thing with bike shooting is the following: they can shoot and kill things first turn the TWC can not charge and if Ulrik drops close they gain PE, making it 15 combi plasmas fired at 2-3 units. That is insane.

Reducing the amount of bikes to 1 units makes it a bit less flexible and reduces the alpha strike.

However, and this is where I agree, non-scouting bikes used for alpha strike has its risks, but it is something I can usually play around.

Of cause if I go second. If I go first, it might be a waste because I will not be able to rapid fire most of the time.

 

Here is another thought however, I could beef up a bike unit to 6-7 dudes and use the remaining points to add a character on bike or TWM. Either WGBL or Wolf Priest (I do not see a single RP being useful), maybe even a IP.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I could see an IP being useful like this or a RP but not sure he's better than Bike Jarl or WGBL.

 

For the Deepstrike problem I forgot to mention add a beacon to the pods for a Non scatter deepstrike. If I bring pods and planning deepstrike termi's then I buy them a beacon.

 

I see what you're saying about the bikes but I honestly think another PAWG squad with plasma would be better. However this means you need another pod etc. Or perhaps turn the GH into Plasma squads and let the bikes and TWC handle the Anti Tank for the list.