The Quest for Purity

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, turning the GH into PAWG might be a good idea. However, with only 3 pods, it is important that I have a good field presence from those pods. BUT, what I could do it giving one of the GH 2 plasma + combi plasma. This means that first turn, PAWG + Ulrik come down and another GH unit, this is where I can choose to either let the plasma or the melta come down turn 2, depending on my needs.

The reason I am reluctant to turn GH into PAWG is 1) I lose objective secured (since both GH are in a separate CAD with Ulrik) and 2) less boots on the ground (though this is not a big loss, because I safe points and can thus get more PAWG into pods as well as giving them and bikes better weapons.

 

So, the question is: is it worth losing Obj.Sec. on pods and around 4-6 PA models in order to get more special weapon shots (combi weapons), better WS, more attacks and the odd power weapon thrown in as well as 2 more bike models? It might actually.

[WG Vrox]

The current list I am building toward is pretty similar to yours. Though my lord is on a bike. Here are my thoughts for your list that combine elements from both. Didn't run the points but should be close. Edit: forgot to reduce the number of TWC to help pay for Arjac

COF
Jarl (as above)

Arjack, 4 TDAWG, 2CM 2CP, (yes Arjack is good enough that you should reconsider TDA , plus you have a teleporter on pod now.
6 WG Bikes, 2 MB, 1 SS, 2 CM The 1 with SS takes point, which should increase their survival enough you wont miss the other unit, if not consider a WGBL on bike.

2 - 3 TWC, 2 SS, 1 Fist
8 Fenrisian Wolves

CAD
Ulrik
2x 10 GH, WGPL, 2 melta, 1 CM, pod -1x Teleporter

1x 10 GH, WGPL, 2 plasma, 1 CP, pod - consider banner if you can find points.

[Frater Cornelius]

Interesting list. Though Arjac can also join a unit of PAWG in a pod and have him up turn 1 kicking ass with the best of it. Together with Ulrik most units should not be a problem for him. Having said that, I am not sure how competitive a hammer tossing maniac is. I suppose I could drop a bike unit, though I am still heartbroken about it (and close to start cutting myself.. not really, but you get the picture).

I do own 5 TDA models with combi weapons and axes (they used to be chaos TDA), and I MIGHT try them, however I will drop them solo, without Arjac, as he is going in a pod with Ulrik and PAWG.

However, TDA are darn slow outside of their drop and not that resilient.. though I suppose bikes aren't all that much better in the end. They are simply faster.

 

I will actually consider that banner because it will help me with morale checks and it will give surrounding TWC and Jarl +1A when pulling off a T1 charge. After trying Ulrik I am convinced that such tactical bubble effects are well worth it and set us apart from our more generic codex brothers.

 

A few questiosn though:

1) I am curious as to how to best use the TDA, because I feel I get more mileage our of PAWG when it comes to dakka.

2) how exactly to you justify dropping that many points on Arjac. He basically is a TDA WGBL on roids. Is that enough to justify him? He is slow...

[Frater Cornelius]

Update on army development:

 

Okay, so I have established a blue print. A base on which my army works. Note that this is one detachment now, because 90% of tournaments 

do not allow multiple detachments (1 main + 1 allied is max).

 

Jarl (his usual gear and pet wolves)

Ulrik

 

5 PAWG, 5 CP, Pod

 

10 GH, WGPL, 2 PG, 1 CP, Banner, Pod

 

4 TWC, 2 SS, 1 PF

4 TWC, 2 SS, 1 PF

 

This clocks in at 1325 points. Let me explain the basic synergy here.

 

The PAWG exist to delete an elite unit or MC on arrival and to ferry Ulrik, possibly even a second IC (like Arjac), to the ground.

They are supported by the 2nd pod with 10 GH and more plasmas. They have a banner in there, it is mainly to support the TWC, Fenrisian 

Wolves and the Jarl, but every unit benefits from it.

The morale reroll also helps me to secure the flank.

Those 2 pods pin point the destination of my first attack. As I said, my first attack will not be global, but rather to overwhelm and secure a flank/gap 

without casualties to put the enemy at a disadvantage. Because of this my unit concentration will be higher and thus the 2 bubbles can work on 

maximum effect. Usually I will try to go second to allow first turn charges within the 2 bubbles. Like that, TWC and the likes should demolish 

big 20man blobs and elite units alike.

 

The core melee power and comes from 3 fast moving units. Jarl + Wolves (which can also split up). They are my character hunters.When wolves 

take too many casualties they will be delegated to holding an objective.

The 2 TWC units have been beefed up and can now weather a lot more shooting. With their current load-out they can take on pretty much anything, 

even more so when under the effect of the banners.

 

The aim of the army is pressure overload along with an alpha strike component.

 

I have now cleared my mind and let go of my love for bikes.

 

This gives me 525 points to bring that army to full strength. This is what I need to have:

1) a third pod (this one is more designed to support the advance and bolster numbers as opposed to exploding and then losing relevance, so I suppose 

another plasma GH unit should go here)

 

2) fast moving transport/light tank busters. They need to be cheap and fast. I can not relegate TWC and combi plasma guys to blow up some cheap 

transports. These units need to be able to hunt smaller units as well. They are basically a scalpel next to the TWC sledge hammer. They take out 

small and cheap stuff and harass more than anything.

 

Bikes suit this role well, but they are not cheap and must be taken in 5man units or more. This adds up. There are other units, mostly in the FA slots, which are already full with the main pressure points of the army.

But there is also Long Fang, who make up for lost mobility with good range and split fire.

Or Predators, they are dirt cheap when taking without upgrades, 150 for 2 to be precise. They are too cheap to dedicate firepower on them but they are also capable of opening transports.

 

I am willing to consider other units though, but when suggesting one, please explain your reason behind it.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Personally I'd keep the GH as you stated in your unit analysis they are tough and honestly I think them with plasma is enough especially with a banner even though they are a reaction force. I'd keep one unit of bikes from what you have. I mean you love them so keep them at five man give a PF and a few melta bombs and combi meltas and your light transport needs are met. Plus one more fast mover for your guys to handle. If you don't like that using a cheap 3 man TDAWG with combi meltas to teleport in and kill a transport to two. Three man with combi's is only 129 points. While they aren't very tough I bet you charge them into a Tac or similar squad in a just blown up rhino and they will at the very least hold them up for awhile. That's what I think of this unit for. A pin the enemy in place to let your TWC or bikes or Lord finish up with whomever's head they are bashing and then charge them in and wipe the squad. A larger squad is doable but again if you plan on any Hand to hand in the squad you might as well bring Arjac. He is that good from everything I've read and seen. Expensive? Yes but I've seen many who use him in competitive play. As you said he can go with PAWG or with a three man TDAWG like I said or even larger unit if you want. He's versatile which is what you need for competitive right? Three different deployment options and three potential units for him to add too. I mean he tanks like crazy and since he can throw his hammer at the perfect 'melta' range anyway why not. I would say keep your list from before and try a game with the TDAWG's and arjac however you see fit. Then go back to your original list that you just played with and then do a PAWG list without or very little GH's. I know you aren't thrilled with them but the versatility of Space Wolves in TDA is impressive. You don't need the hand to hand (TWC cover that) but if you want a tank unit you can do that. Or give them all combi's and SS I think this is expensive but if you are worried about survivability that's not bad at all. Me I like the thought of the Termicide for Space wolves or a Lone wolf in TDA if you get weird on points. I don't play 1850 often so I get a few more toys and am spoiled.

 

My personal thought is the extra bike unit is just too much points that you've already got covered by three other units, combi's on the first squad and a fist should really cover you. Redundancy goes so far and you could cover your transport and distraction problem with TDA plus kit their melee weapons for whatever you want. Really look at them hard (not that you haven't) and as I've seen said in here think outside the kennel and since they are just games experiment you would be pleasantly surprised I think.

 

Heck I bought an entire Deathwing army because I hated Termi's and my buddy who got me into it harassed me until I used his for a game. I've got 150 termi's for my DA now and love it.

 

I think the big difference is Termi's in Space Wolves don't have to be the unit it is in Chaos. Termicide is really the only "good" option for them in Chaos. Your army has enough big threats they would probably survive fairly well especially with Arjac or just one or two SS.  Your enemy would look at them and go Shoot at three man Termi squad or at TWC bearing down on me with a vengeance. If they choose the three man TDA then awesome for you TWC get to wreck face at full man power. If not you've got the termi's right there at the very least to keep a unit from shooting next turn.

 

Once again just my thoughts.

 

P.S. The long fangs and pred's just don't fit I think in your list. To static for the rest and that would just scream for your opponent to come to your side of the board and honestly I don't think you want that. The alpha strike/pressure you are creating is great but it gets dulled I think when the enemy can deepstrike outflank to your side of the board and get a kill point for it. Sure it takes the pressure off but after the unit kills the transports then its 150 points usually taking pot shots. Not that the TDA aren't doing the same thing but tying up a unit and keeping it from shooting is a lot different I think than taking pot shots.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Dreadnoughts with double twin-linked autocannons are a pretty good option and are cheap at 115pts each. Four, twin-linked S7, AP4 shots will do a nice job of stripping hull points off of transports and taking on medium to light infantry. It can also serve as an ad-hoc AA platform in a pinch if you need it to.

[CatSmasher]

If you run into Ion Riptides with EWO the PAWG get smoked. You need something to tank, or extra bodies 

[Frater Cornelius]

Good point. I suppose this is another case in favour of Arjac. I simply can not get over it. Dropping one Bike squad makes me feel... empty on the table. I know I have 2 TWC, wolves and Jarl and a second bike unit. But It still feels empty. Plus I am not convinced to take Arjac for 2 reasons: 1) some, though only a very few, tournaments do not allow more than 1 named, and Ulrik is more important. And 2) he is a slow TDA dude, with the emphasis on 'slow'.

[CatSmasher]

I agree about Arjac, he is expensive for sure, and only two wounds. I like the hammer throw though, its hard to find S10 in the spacewolves dex otherwise

[Frater Cornelius]

Thunderwolves with fists or hammer get more attacks with same WS when playing CoF. And they are way faster.

 

I have used him today in a 1615 game against Chaos. Unfortunately there were no real juicy targets for him to throw his mallet at. He did however tank a lot of rending and ap3 hits for his unit.

Ulrik was once again the biggest force multiplier since Yoda (get it? force?). He would have died top of turn 2 if not for Arjac. Seeing that the game went 4 turns, it was crucial.

And since he is cheaper and tougher than a WGBL, I might consider him and I will definitely try him again. If nothing else, gives me an excuse to make a cheesy Thor reference.

[FenrisWolf]

Ulrik was once again the biggest force multiplier since Yoda (get it? force?).

I too plan on using Ulric a lot. He seems only a small point upgrade from a WP, and you get such great multiple unit buffs.

[Frater Cornelius]

He is just a beast. Where the Jarl is king of melee and wrecking units, Ulrik is king of support. 11 plasma shots + 1 hammer from his unit and buffing the GH next to him, the drop pods as well and buffing those TWC as well. Priceless. The enemy was very frustrated with him. So many rerolls really skewed it against him.

When I explained him that my TWC had 7 attacks each on the charge (6 from the s10 power fist) because they were in banner range AND had PE from Ulrik and are WS5, he had nothing left to say, and it was priceless.

I definitely recommend Ulrik when using drop pods.

[WG Vrox]

Arjac could be the anvil to your hammer list. When podding 2 to 3 units into the same area they are going to be slow or not moving at all while they hold objectives. So yes Arjac is slow but perfect for this role and will do a fantastic job protecting your avil unit. I know you mourn the loss of you 2nd biker unit, but a HQ + 2 TWC and a 1 biker unit should be enough of a hammer for your list.  1 Pod of Melta and 1 Pod of Plasma should be enough GHs if you add Arjac to keep this group a solid Anvil. 

 

I suggest you try playtesting Long Fangs maybe with an aegis def line to help with flyers which I see as a weakness in your list. This will also cover the transport killing role you are seeking.  As I mentioned we are running similar lists and I run LFs, they will almost always be a primary target which is fine since they are away from my main group. They are almost always the first target for a flyer when coming onto the table. To counter this I am planning to run a WP with them, however I have not done so as of yet, so can not confirm this as being a good idea. I can tell you that keeping my Lone Wolf with them if I suspect infiltrators or the like has paid off.  

[Frater Cornelius]

That is one way of looking at it. Their main purpose, however, is to provide those 2 bubbles for the approaching cavalry. They can function as Anvil and directing enemy units of the situation allow, but that is not their main purpose. They drop where the biggest insurgence will be and transform killy cavalry models into Godzilla on roids.

 

Tank hunting is not an issue to be honest. Fenrisian Wolves tear apart just about everything with rear AV10 (90% of all tanks in game) and TWC usually just has to give a Land Raider a stern look for it to turn around and go home (due to their S10 fist and massive amount of Rending).

 

I do not think I will use Arjac in 1500 lists just yet, unless he proves himself, but I will include him into my 1850 list for now and see how it goes.

 

This is the current list:

 

Jarl (as usual with his 2 wolves, add Melta Bomb to him for the lulz)

Ulrik, the Force Multiplier

 

5 PAWG, 5 CP, Pod

Arjac (rides with Ulrik and 5 PAWG in the first turn pod)

6 WG Bikes, 2 melta bombs, 2 CM (with all that TWC, drop pod and mallet tossing maniacs going on I think these guys have a fair chance to see combat, so a PW might be a good idea).

 

10 GH, WGPL, 2 PG, CP, Banner, Pod (the second first turn drop)

10 GH, WGPL, 2 PG, CP, Pod (I could replace PC and CP for meltas, drop the bomb from the lord and add a power weapon or something to the bikes)

 

4 TWC, 2 SS, 1 Fist

4 TWC, 2 SS, 1 Fist

8 Fenrisian Wolves

 

1850 on the spot.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Well my friend it looks good to try out I think. I would absolutely try the PW on the Bikes. I like this list and have to agree 1500 points and you have to drop Arjac. Next thing I would try (I know you hate the thought of using them) but give the TDAWG a chance in your 1850 list. Not sure what you are willing to shave or drop but you are testing things so give them a try and see. I know a big step trying the single Bikes but I honestly think you might enjoy the results. Standard rules apply multiple games discount bad dice rolls etc. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

This has been a lot of fun to look at you actually convinced me to do a 8 - 10 Fen wolf pack for my own Jarl on TWM when I do use him. You also confirmed Ulric for me in a Drop pod heavy force.

[WG Vrox]

I like this list, has a good balance to it, but I personally would go with the below option.  I like being able to choose from melta or plasma when I am picking which unit to drop along with Arjac. Good luck and keep us updated. 

 

(I could replace PC and CP for meltas, drop the bomb from the lord and add a power weapon or something to the bikes)

 

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, thanks for the feedback. It has been awesome indeed. Interesting to see how the list has developed itself. Next game will be Tuesday I think, there I will try Arjac again.

I would also go for the melta version because it allows a PW on the bikes. The only drawback is that the melta unit does not have a banner. But I guess +1A is not that relevant when I am desperate enough to drop a melta unit.

Back to the TDA. Would you go for a 3 man unit with combis or a 5 man unit with combis and heavy weapon? 5 dudes, 3 combis and a heavy weapon cost as much as my 6man bike unit on top. Shave some points somewhere and the 5th guy can get a melee upgrade.
If I also go for a 3 man unit, I might get it by reducing TWC to 3 man units but 1) 3 TDA seem inconcequential and 2) I will never ever play 3 TWC again, they are too fragile.
Dropping Arjac is also an option for 3-5 TDA. I will mix it around and see where it goes.
Although I think my very first testing attempt will be dropping bikes just to see how TDA perform and get both Arjac and TDA tested.
What heavy weapon though. I am tending towards the AsC.

Edit: Okay, so in the TDA version I dropped the 6man bike unit and 2 Fenrisian Wolves (down to 6 + 2 on lord) and added

5 TDA, 4 PW, 3 combi plasmas, 1 AsC, sarge with th/ss

This clocks in at 1849 points. I do not have a homer on a turn 1 pod. For that I would need to drop another 10 points, which I can not find anywhere. I suppose it is not that necessary because Ulrik can move 6" to get TDA into PE range if they scatter or the TDA can just start on the field and walk up if I am facing a fast army that will lave his deployment zone ASAP.

Anyway, I will try that 1849 TDA setup on Tuesday. Disciple, this one is on you. They better do not disappoint. I had to leave another 6 bikes and 2 wolves at home for that

[eyeslikethunder]

He is just a beast. Where the Jarl is king of melee and wrecking units, Ulrik is king of support. 11 plasma shots + 1 hammer from his unit and buffing the GH next to him, the drop pods as well and buffing those TWC as well. Priceless. The enemy was very frustrated with him. So many rerolls really skewed it against him.

When I explained him that my TWC had 7 attacks each on the charge (6 from the s10 power fist) because they were in banner range AND had PE from Ulrik and are WS5, he had nothing left to say, and it was priceless.

I definitely recommend Ulrik when using drop pods.

did this yesterday my twl + 2 thunderwolves units killed 2 tact squads 1 command squad 2 rhinos and a building in a single turn awesome

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

5 Man TDA is what I would use. I love the AssCan personally. It's very versatile and will help with lots of different targets. I would only do a 3 Man TDA for a 3 Combi Melta drop. Anything else and they just aren't tough enough or worth the points. 3 combi plas with AssCan is going to ruin any infantry units day and you don't have to be that spot on for your deepstrike. 12" gives more than enough space and then go to town. Tank with the TH/SS sarge and you should have a nice unit that will draw heat from your TWC. Not that they really need it but couldn't hurt. For "perfect" support drops you would need the beacon on the pod. Me I am ok with the deepstrike scatter and once you get the feel of it should get it down to an art form. You'll have those bad days but who doesn't on a game with dice?

I am glad you are trying it out. It might not be your thing and might do terribly for you but at least you're giving it a try. Good luck and let us know the results as always.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is not quite true. Let me tell you a story. I uses to LOVE TDA. They were the epitomy of everything Metal.
My liking for bikes is not founded on style but rather on practicality and performance. TWC is a mold of both, I like the unit and their performance.
But nothing compares a bunch of TDA marching up field. That just screams HEAVY METAL.
That liking for them has been somewhat rekindled. I am almost done with my Arjac conversion and I have a unit of 5 TDA ready to go. They look so epic. The issue is that this liking is not yet powerful enough to break the stigma of my view of today's meta (read: fast stuff everywhere).
But if I stop and think about it, they can work in my list. If nothing else, they are a great midfield unit. Tough, respectable dakka that is not diminished by moving, giving them an effective 30" threat range (compares to 24" of bikes due to the need to rapid fire). Ideally you park then on an objective and forget about it, becauss it is now secured.
A second tactic would be to enhance the anvil. I have 10 GH and the Ulrik bomb coming down. Turn 2 you ideally have 5 TDA and another 10 GH. The TWC sledgehammer is capable enough.
That is a think I definitely see in the favour of TDA. They can be an immovable object by sitting somewhere, they can be the hammer by walking upfield, and they can be the anvil by dropping down turn 2-3.

 

If you do a cost comparison:

TDA + Arjac are 215 + 115 = 330 points

2x 5 WG bikes = 2x 150 = 300 points.

 

You pay a 30 point premium for what amount to superior long ranged shooting, the ability to actually kill transports with guns, 2+/3++, losing speed but gaining deployment and thus tactical flexibility.

[mcpolle]

Must admit to missing this thread from the start, which is a shame, as it has lots of useful info in it, and is basically what I was trying to do in another thread, but why have two, when one that is ongoing, and is in full swing.

 

Anyway, the funny thing is, I have been playing Ulrick, with Arjack, and 5 WG with combi plasma guns, the last couple of games, as that unit in a pod, dropping down, can really deliver some hurt, and especially as Ulrick, lets the WG re-roll any 1's, which helps, and also Arjack only misses on a 1, which he can also re-roll.

 

I really do like this unit, followed up with 2 full GH sqds, which I personally give them melta guns,as more Plasma I feel is not needed.

 

One thing I can see, you have not addressed, at all, is anti flyers, what are you doing here?? Or do you not play against many flyers where you are??

 

I can also see, that you are not running any Iron Priests, is there a  reason for this?? I feel 1, with his little Cyber puppies, is a great investment for the points, also can join your lords unit, making it a mini death star. I know you say you do not like using too many points on a sqd, but still, its a pretty awesome unit to have.

 

Anyway, will watch this, with much interest, I am at a tourney tomorrow, so, if you like, I can post up any good stuff I see/ or find out.

 

Have fun

Polle

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Well know you did it. Friend of mine is letting me borrow his Wolves since mine are being shipped to my new house. He wants me to play in a local tourney in October. So I've got two weeks to hammer down a 1000 point list and I'm looking at 1850 since that is all my new club plays. Really glad you started this thread. I'll do some play tests with mine and see what happens and post them either here or in a new thread whichever you prefer good sir. Let me know how the hammer and anvil works for you.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, you dont see anyone addressing flyers because very few actually care.

And since this is about my future tourney list, my local meta is irrelevant.

But take my list and think about it. What threat do flyers pose?

Stormwolf and Stormraven, when used as a gunship, will take out around 3 marines or 1 TWC a turn. Same goes for other AV12 flyers.

If they use SW or SR as transport, then they will have 500-600 point at the very least in reserves. I will slaughter him with my superior field presence.

When it comes to flyer spam, which usually is just Cron Air, just grab objectives. Cron flyers can not hover and must move 18". So, most cron flyers will just get 1 shooting phase against you, if you are smart no shooting at all. So he must disembark to do something. When he does, he loses all mobility against my cavalry.

I have no tanks and the likes fo flyers to threaten.

Heldrake is no different since the nerf. Just get behind him and he will either hover or won't shoot. Both is good for me.

Against FMC spam, again, slaughter his limited ground forces and go for objectives.

 

Here is the thing. Most people believe that a good list has to kill everything. That is wrong. A good list has a strategy behind it. Sometimes objectives make the game, not killing.

So I'd rather fortify my tactic and my ground forces instead of wasting points for AA, which might not even be needed half the time. The only flyers I regularly see are Necrons (but not full air, just air support), the odd SR, SW and Vendetta, Nids and occasionally Daemons/CSM and that is about it.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Very good point about the fliers. Bring your pods down on their half of the board and suddenly your opponent is going to overshoot with there flyer and more than likely have to reposition. So best case for them they get around a turn three to shoot at you. Halfway through the game? You spend around 200 points on a unit and only use it half the game? I'll take that advantage any day and twice on sunday. Taking objectives rolling up a flank that is what I see winning games honestly. Having just enough of your army to slow down theirs while you hammer one side of their lines or the other and then work your way across. Flaws? Sure but way better than marching straight at each other or pulling an American civil war stand off just shooting at one another from across the board.

 

I've seen the fliers thing (even have a few of my own) but I think the internet has blown it way out of proportion. Make it hard to hit the enemy? Sure. Can it be spammed and broken on so many levels its not funny? As are many things in the game. I see all these people spending the amount of points on anti flyer that it honestly makes me chringe some. Heldrake is back to a 45% arc of fire. Still torrent and going to hurt but still tough to hit well with it. Vend's got a points increase Stormraven's are 200 points minimum. Just not seeing the point of going flyer and nothing but flyer so help me bob.

[Frater Cornelius]

I hate going back on my words, but in the end, sometimes you gotta do it. This is another reason why I am going to consider TDA. They can deep strike against gunlines and walk against fast armies. Bikes are not much of a hammer. They are a support unit to bring more attacks and they are there to case smaller units and kill them. The true hammer in the TWC and it is a big bloody hammer that even Thor would call respectable.
They roll up the flank before you even know what is going on. What you need is field presence, an anvil that will restrict the enemy's advance. TDA are good at that. Requiring torrents of fire of specialized weapons to be dealt with and having a 30" effective threat range and always shoot with full effect. They are a very solid denial unit. But they can also function as hammer due to that relentless advance of theirs.
Frankly, I am looking forward to fielding them on Tuesday.