The Quest for Purity

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, it is pretty much similar to mine, only slight loadout changes and one TWC unit exchanged for a bike unit. The list in itself is solid. Now it comes down to your skills as a general

Edit: WG Vrox takes the glory for the 100th post in here. ALE FOR EVERYBODY!

[SamaNagol]

TWC arent the best unit in the book. You won't see them used much past christmas. Other death stars dont go down to torrent of fire or massed blast weapons. They have re-rollable 2+ saves and/or Feel No Pain. They just arent resilient enough.

 

Iron Priests with Cyberwolves will be everywhere however. Especially out of CoF. Very points efficient unit.

 

The rest I can't really be bothered to debate. It's subjective. There's no definitive answer so we would argue round in circles. Stormwolves have the best shooting output in the game now when it comes to gunships, they can actually score due to their short flying stand and they get ObSec. Brilliant unit. Can easily get rid of a Night Scythe a turn. 5 Blood Claws with a flamer are brilliant deckchair units. For 65pts they can easily shift the equivalent points of Cultists off an objective and stay there. Wall of Death when they get charged and they still get 3 attacks base. Power Armour and T4. They're excellent value. Especially when you have other threats. You take them in pods to drop them in later in the game so whatever else you want to turn up 1st turn in your empty FA pods can do so. Bjorn and the Ven Dread in a pod both provide very resilient units in your face turn 1. AV13 with an Invulnerable and the Venerable rule is superb, plus the Heavy Flamer is very handy coming out of a pod. AV12 3++ with Venerable is also great due to you being able to position the model on a flank so it wont be showing much of it's sides. Maybe not top tier powered, but you were looking at 'new' things to try.

 

Taking Thunder Wolf Cav and getting Wyverned off the table turn 1 probably wont be that much fun for you.

 

But it's all opinions. Hope it goes well for you. Just wanted to put forward some suggestions I hadnt really seen discussed yet.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, there is your problem, you assume I run TWC as a death star. A TWC star looks a whole lot different, my friend. It takes a whole lot more than 215 points to make one.
As for the IP, one of them with 4 dogs costs 165, whereas 4 TWC cost 160. A solo TWM IP costs 105 and 2 TWC with 2 SS cost 110. In both cases the TWC is more resilient due to having more wounds and the IP either being T4 because of Wolves or the IP only having a 6++.

As for the rest. Fair enough. I mean Bjorn will suffer against mass glances (a la Necrons and Tau) and both dreads are way to slow but I can see them working.

As for the BC unit... If I want to spend 100 points on a glorified scoring unit, I would buy an allied Land Speeder Storm. Scoring isn't a game that SW do all that great. Having said that, this would be the next best alternative and I can see the appeal but they are not for me.

And if you lose an entire TWC unit to a Wyvern turn 1, it is you fault. Maximal coherency is 2". Small Blast radius is 1.5". So a Wyvern will get 3-4 hits, let's be generous and say 5-6. That results in 2-3 wounds (or 3-4 wounds in the second example) for one Wyvern, and that is being generous. I do not see them as a threat.

I guess the only thing that won't come down to personal taste is the TWC issue. And, no offense, but you strike me as someone who did not play TWC for an extensive period of time and got his experience from killing enemy TWC played by an incompetent player.
And if you have played them, then you do not seem to be very good at using them.

Still, I appreciate your input. I will explore the possibilities of Dreads and 5-man BC drops in another lists ;)

[eyeslikethunder]

Thunderwolves arent good unless you can reliably get them FNP. They will get decimated by massed small arms fire as was always the case.

 

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I find them able to survive a lot of firepower if given a way to allocate wounds with 2+ save hero (ip/ twl) plus if you have multiple TWC units / imeadiate threats they struggle to bring massed firepower to bear on them all. A lot armies can kill one unit virtually none can kill 3 in the 1 turn before they charge. Also using their great speed to keep range and use Los cover to reduce the incoming firepower helps signicantly

[Frater Cornelius]

Thunderwolves arent good unless you can reliably get them FNP. They will get decimated by massed small arms fire as was always the case.

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I find them able to survive a lot of firepower if given a way to allocate wounds with 2+ save hero (ip/ twl) plus if you have multiple TWC units / imeadiate threats they struggle to bring massed firepower to bear on them all. A lot armies can kill one virtually none can kill 3 in the 1 turn before they charge. Also using their great speed to keep range and use Los cover to reduce the incoming firepower helps signicantly

Do not forget LoS shenanigans with the Pack Leader. Have a Pack Leader at the front and another pleb behind him. With constant LoS wounds will b split 50/50 between those 2. Most of the time it means 1 wound on each of them. Once that happens, let the 2 wound guys take point. With smart play you can take a lot of abuse.

But, Sama does bring up a good point. New things!

So, given that the third incarnation of the list is here to stay for now, does anyone have other suggestions as to what direction one could take the list (at the cost of any unit in there, except the Jarl) or other units that could be brought in there? Bring it (with a short note as to why you think this is a good idea).

Meanwhile I will explore the possibilities of the 5-man BC drop pods for a few other lists. When it comes down to it, they are a tougher but slower LSS. This might be of interest to some MSU or Death Star lists.

Edit: By the way. What about that 1500 list with a few minor alternations.. and an Imperial Knight? I know that one is technically an ally, but the Knights are not really a complex codex and thus won't be subject to changes all that much (which is the reason I hate allies, I have 2 codecies thatmay change and screw up my game).

Or, to take the idea of the Knight further, how about an Ironwolf list? Currently, UM and IH are the kings of SM mech (UM has superior dakka and IH have solid survivability). However, SW have a PE bubble, mounted Iron Priests, the Stormwolf and fun Dreads.

The reason I am mentioning mech and high AV values is because I just had a look at the current GT meta. Over 2/3 are Eldar Serpent Spam lists and the rest is Necrons, Tau with the occasional SM army and quite a few Imperial Knights.

And my current list isn't by all means bad, but it will suffer against Serpent Spam. Jink and their Shield basically makes my alpha strike useless and they can keep TWC at bay for long enough to shoot them down.

A thought I had was to mix TWC and high AV, but dropping the Alpha Strike. What do you guys think of this new direction?

[Hear da Lamentation]

This is a similar issue I have with Nids.  The guy I play hides ALL his army in any area terrain he can get .. has a venomthrope or 2 .. and so has 3+ cover save minimum on everything (which is going to screw up the best of the alpha strike).  Then he sits there waiting for his 2 flyrants to come on the board and start cleaning up.

 

Personally for me ... I'm never going down the "Knight" route.  It is purely my opinion of course ... but I think they are ridiculous.  To be honest, I hate the whole Lords of War thing anyway.

 

I would be interested to see how you would swop the Alpha for high AV though ....

 

HDL

 

P.S.  On the biker / termie question you gave.  For 200 points, I guess I would go with 5 bikers, 3 cplasma, 1 ss, 1 pf.  195 points.

(The other thing we did forget when comparing the 2 units - is twin linked from the bikers.  That does squew the shootting more in their favour).

 

I also wouldnt take the cplasma off the termies.  As you mentioned earlier, I think the fact they have them psychologically means the enemy are going to think twice about getting too close

[Frater Cornelius]

Knights are no Lords of War. They have their own detachment, like Inquisition.

 

I think I will leave this thread for the time being. It is getting crowded and starting a new topic in here won't get us anywhere. When I have anything else on this list or a similar one, I will post it here.

The new discussion about the meta-killer list will move to a new thread. See you there ;)

[FenrisWolf]

Immer, this does show why the tactica we discussed is a useful idea! Looking forward to it when you can do it.

[Frater Cornelius]

Working on it. Don't worry ;)

[FenrisWolf]

You will make my week!  Much thanks and ale!

[Frater Cornelius]

I will probably make your next week. It's an awful lot text and pictures and example lists that are actually worth a damn :D

[FenrisWolf]

If I can ever get over to Germany, I will definitely have to take you to the biergarten of your choice for several drinks!

[SamaNagol]

LoS shenanigans will certainly work against many things. But batteries of barrage weapons don't really care. 2 Wyverns are only 130pts. Most IG lists have 4 at least. They will really be a hindrance if you go up against them. Certainly target number 1 for your podding marines.

 

But things like Serpent Spam lists or Tau gunlines will make you roll a LOT of saves. And you will lose models. 5 TWs die as quickly as 10 Tactical Marines to Wave Serpents. I just feel they need more survivability in such a heavy shooting meta. 

 

Also, what do you do regarding mitigating skirmish screens such as IG conscripts or Gaunts or Kroot that will stop you getting in combat with the meaty goodness? Speed bumps were always the best way to deal with TW Cav and Nob Bikers before them in the past.

[jerrys]

Hello,

(My apologies if this is a stupid question I'm pretty new at this.)

If you trade away a model's melee weapon (say, having a TDA WG go storm bolter + storm shield), can he still attack in an assault? or not at all? It seems reasonable that he could carry a non-power axe or something, the carrying capacity on those things is probably quite large. I found a rule that says if the model doesn't have any entry for melee weapons, you can assume he has one CCW. And I found a rule that says if it is strength-0, it can't attack.

Thanks.

[Dantay VI]

It means that in assault you attack with your base amount of attacks (because you forego your bonus attack for having 2 assault type weapons) and at your base strength with no bonus or modifiers a melee weapon may have given you, as you are effectively pistol whipping your opponent with your storm bolter.