Chaotic thoughts after reading Talon of Horus: SPOILER ALERT

[Prot]

I noticed some of the original (Expectations of Talon of Horus) thread is getting some feedback after people have read it.

So I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread for those thoughts and feedback with the obvious caveat that this thread is loaded with SPOILERS.

The original thread compares are hopes, and expectations: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295822-what-are-you-hoping-for-from-talon-of-horus/

I thought it would be cool if we could compare what's in this thread to the pre-release thread linked above. So for the final time, please do not read on if you're afraid of spoilers.

That being said I JUST got my copy tonight. What an epic presentation of 40K naughtiness. The embossed cover is quite handsome, and the edging of the pages is a nice touch. I really, really liked the artwork, especially the World Eater's dude. I found it amusing he holds a Heavy Bolter, but when I thought about it... why not? I'm sure the blunt edge can be used as an axe.

His head dress is stellar, making for epic headbutt action. Why Abe looks so subdued, unshowered, and in plain armour I have yet to see.

I still have a softspot for World Eaters and think Betrayer is the best look at them yet, giving them some dimension that has been long overdue but I realize in seeing this Abaddon series, that it probably means I won't get to see much more of the World Eater stuff from ADB... but anyway...

I am going to dive into it tonight. Please let me know what you guys think from a Chaos perspective. The book looks amazing, I got number 775 so nothing special, but I feel as far as presentation it is spot on, and not something I have to hide from my wife.

[Kol Saresk]

I posted it in the other thread, but for posterity's sake:

 

WARNING: SPOILERS

 

SERIOUSLY, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. CEASE AND DESIST IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO PROCEED.

 

FOR THE LAST TIME,

http://mundanecstasy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/spoilers.jpg

 

 

Other than hoping it was something that would blow my socks off, I came to this book with no expectations. It did not blow my socks off.

 

It annihilated them.

 

No seriously. like I'm sure many others have, my opinion of the Black Legion was nonexistent. They were there, but not worth my time as they didn't evoke my interest. Like Incinerator and many others, my knowledge extended only to the Imperial's point of view of Failbaddon and how the strongest of the Traitors continually failed the most. At least until just before 6th Edition. Around that time I started seeing posts by A D-B about how the failures were not victories. With the advent of 6th Edition, I began to look deeper at the old lore that I hadn't been indoctrinated in, sort of like an outsider looking in. Everything before 4th Edition was new to me. Heck, mot os 4th an 5th was still new to me. No, new isn't the right word. Unknown.

 

So I looked at the old fluff with the indoctrination of the new, I looked with hindsight. And I saw the paths connecting the two. I saw where certain things could lead from a past mention to a current truth.

 

Why is this important? Because that is this book. It connects the bridges. Shows what the old fluff says, and then it begins to show how that bridges to what many consider to be "retcons".

 

And it does an amazing job of it. It takes the time to point out the old fluff an then the new fluff and the connections in between.

 

As Vesper and I discussed elsewhere, in the Heresy thread I believe(could be wrong), 40K is rare in that it possess no true omnipotent narrator. It takes a true historian's view, meaning that you see the history as it is known to the "author". Which is vastly different from any other comparable fiction, like the Silmarillion which is a true omnipotent narrator's account.

 

This book is like finding a war diary. Imagine hearing how a war went one way, according to your country's bias. Now imagine reading the war diary of a soldier from the other side of the war.

 

That is this book.

 

We see the death of the XVI Legion. We see the birth pangs of the Black Legion. We see the legends and myths turned to reality. Or at least, reality as Khayon sees it. And that is important to remember. This is not an almighty, omnipotent revelation. This is Khayon's account. This is Khayon's "truth". In standard 40K fashion, the greatest lie ever told was the truth, and the most convincing truth is the simplest lie.

 

I think my favorite part of the novel was actually all the warp talk. It was just..... I don't have a word for it. Saying it sated some of my curiosity just doesn't seem to cut it.

 

But seriously, this book is yowzah. I cannot compare it to the Night Lords series for the same reason I cannot compare A d-B's Heresy works with the Night Lords series. Each individual series has a different angle and style. Trying to compare them is like trying to compare a sword and an axe by how well both weapons stab. Its a worthless attempt as the axe was never made to stab. That's this.

 

Tenebris, I know you were looking forward to a how to manual on how to build a warband. Nope. This book is essentially A D-B's (in)famous Maybe post rendered in novel format.

 

I know this is a rambling review. And I apologize for that. I plan to imitate Balthamal in reading it a few more times before tryin to organize a coherent review, this is just my first impression. But at the moment, it is wow.

 

I am sure that many will be disappointed because it doesn't give them what they want. Irregardless of that, this is a well-written novel. Props to A D-B. And seriously, I'd love copies of your research notes, especially anything relating to the warp and the Possessed.

 

 

And Vesper

if I read Extinction correctly, it ends with Abaddon at Lupercalios during the last battle. I believe that is when he picks up the relic and takes it back to the Vengeful Spirit. I know "time is meaningless in the warp" and all that, but IIRC, Khayon and the others experience something in the neighborhood of a year before they even reach the Radiant Worlds so there's plenty of time for him to boogy from one location to the next.

 

[incinerator950]

I'm offended you think my opinion of Abbadon and the BL was Imperial based.

[Kol Saresk]

Well you said you don't read Black Library and Soul Hunter is the only Chaos POV I know of that approaches the Black Crusades as a failure and even then, it is necause Talos thinks like the rest of the fluff that the Crusades were all about breaking Cadia.

[incinerator950]

I have not been blind these past many years, kol.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't say you were. But most of the fluff(all but Soul Hunter to my knowledge) that says the Crusades were failures, is written from the Imperial viewpoint. So anything based off of that viewpoint, is Imperial-based. And even if we include Talos's statement, or go solely by it, it is the viewpoint of someone who is largely ignorant of the last ten thousand years considering he's missed most of it. Even Lucoryphus would point out that the first twelve crusades were just "crusades" and that this was "The Crusade" in Void Stalker's epilogue.

 

So to sit there and say that an opinion that the Crusades were failures is an Imperial-originating opinion isn't saying one is blind, it is pointing out the evidence used to create that opinion.

 

As Khayon says as the book begins to close

 

And after that came the First Crusade. Imperial record remembers it as the first time the Nine Legions broke free of the Eye and returned to the galaxy in strength against an unprepared Imperium. The Nine Legions remember it for the triumph at Ualan, when the Warmaster claimed his daemon blade, Drach'nyen.

 

We of the Ezekarion have a different recollection - or, at least one with a profoundly different focus. Perhaps the new regents of the Imperium did not expect our return and so were unprepared to face us, but not all of the Emperor's servants had forgotten its wayward sons.

The Imperium sees it as the forces of Chaos spilling forth from the Eye and then receding and consider that a defeat. Talos sees that Twelve Crusades have happened and since none of them have blasted the Cadian Gate off of its hinges, they must have all been failures. Lucoryphus sees them as probing attacks, readying for the major assault that would break it off of its hinges. The Ezekarion see all Thirteen as thirteen separate stages of one single war, of one single campaign. Each is meant to fulfill a certain objective. Yes, there have been losses. You can't lose a Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress, not to mention countless men and ships and say you came out unscathed. But you can say you captured two Blackstone Fortresses and that is enough for the next stage.

 

Your perception is your reality. I'm quoting A D-B, who is quoting Qui-Gon Jinn. And that's because the statement fits. If you look at the Crusades from one angle, you do not see the whole picture. You only see one corner of the puzzle. You have to look at it from as many angles as possible in order to see the whole. And the whole is that the Long War is indeed, a very long war.

[incinerator950]

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac116/incinerator950/downloaderphp.gif

[Kol Saresk]

And that's why I didn't think to believe you had any knowledge of Soul Hunter since you said you didn't read Black Library.

[incinerator950]

No, I read spoilers and reviews over the synapse. The last novel I read was Titanicus, and that has been lost ever since I went State hopping.

[Brother Ambroz]

Just finished reading this and yeah it was pretty amazing. The characters were all very interesting. One thing I really want to know though....

 

 

Two of my favorite characters were Gyre and Neferteri, I really want to see what happened to them. Seems feasible they both could return as one is a daemon and the other is somewhat animated by psychic energy.

 

Another minor thing is I would've liked to have seen some of Abaddon while he is still unsure of his path. It seems like as soon as he meets the group Abby is already confident and knows what direction he wants to go. Wasn't quite expecting that as soon as you see him. 

 

[Dragonlover]

So, I'm re-reading it, and you know what? It's better on the re-read, with no expectations to colour it. I now want to make all of my guys take the black, but I am resisting.

 

My sole criticism now is that Khayon doesn't feel like a Thousand Son, in terms of way of thinking and stuff, but that may have been deliberate as a way of distancing him from his Legion, so I'm willing to see where it goes.

 

Dragonlover

[Tenebris]

On the contrary I find Khayon to be the classic Thousand Son. Learned, insightful, talkative, precise and a scholar at heart. He may be a space marine, he may be even a sorcerer but deep down he is a very intellectual person. The thing I loved most of him is this... how to say... distant honor of a learned person. It is kinda why I would accept a duel, not due to notions of honor or grace, prowess or anything, but because it is somehow "right" and according to plan.

 

What really frightens me about Khayon in particular is that he seems like myself transported in M41 and made a space marine. Up from summoning to a dire desire to debate and explore I cannot shake this feeling that I am too much close with the outlook of this character his likes and dislikes are a mirror of mine in the universe of Warhammer. He sees the legions as I see them, he has no favorites to whom offers services but he respects only specific things. He dominates his charges and even if he likes them there is a clear hierarchy established around him and he favors and efficient approach to battle which is quite at odds with the other characters. As I have said I felt the bond with this character straight from his first line in the book, a strange mirror indeed. I cant wait to read more. 

[Midnightmare]

Own up ADB, you based him on Tenebris :D

[Tenebris]

As I have said... scary. All in all the book is a masterpiece, I have to find one day a few hours free to post an extensive feedback on Talon of Horus. Even as it is, even if it is only the beginning of the series already it has so many notions that will shake the foundations of Chaos, or better how we understand Chaos.

 

Underlying the book I think we can feel the vibe that made the 3.5 book so awesome, the "gritty and grimdark realism in a dimension ruled by gods and home to daemons..." that is just one of my phrases I can use to sum the content of the book. 

[Dragonlover]

It sounds really dumb, but I find the lack of references to the... damn, I forget the word. Enumerations? Irritating. They struck me as a standard way of thinking for the Sons is all. I guess part of the point may be that Khayon has moved past the need for them possibly, but it's something I'd have liked mention of.

 

Dragonlover

[Prot]

I'm glad more people are reading this.

I liked Khayon fine except when faced with the wondermaker. Most of the novel Khayon is pretty sentimental about his roots but treated this guy like crap imho.

 

The world eater dude while very funny and entertaining was not believable to me as a leader of warriors with his own vessel. ?..thrreatening abaddon after drinking his strange romulan warp ale had me wondering if had any grip on reality

 

I did think Khayon going in with abe was a bit weird.

 

 

What blew me away was the story behind the story the astronomicon scene for instance. I reread it instantly.

[Loesh]

You know I was reading some things from someone else who read Talon of Horus, and concerning the Vengeful Spirit it's mentioned that Horus was completely obliterated body and soul, to him he thought it was BS the Emperor could do that.

 

But is it really? I always thought being able to erase someones soul wasn't particularly impressive for a Psyker.

[Prot]

I remember the first time I read that battle a million years ago and it seemed the fight happened on the physical as well as the mental realms. I'm reminded of Morpheus who told neo the body can't survive without the mind

 

The new answer will come in a novel written by one lucky author. I can't even guess when that would come out.

[Kol Saresk]

You know I was reading some things from someone else who read Talon of Horus, and concerning the Vengeful Spirit it's mentioned that Horus was completely obliterated body and soul, to him he thought it was BS the Emperor could do that.

 

But is it really? I always thought being able to erase someones soul wasn't particularly impressive for a Psyker.

It kind of is and isn't. It isn't impressive for a well-trained psyker to tear someone's soul apart, but the remnants still very much exist inside the warp. But we aren't talking about simply tearing his soul about. Now, we know there is a Law of Conservation for both Matter and Energy, that nothing can neither be created nor destroyed, simply converted from one form to another. Well, the warp follows the Law of Conservation of Essence. Souls aren't destroyed, they simply convert from one form to another. The first form just usually happens to be the soul of a living being inside the material realm.

 

Well the Emperor broke that Law of Conservation. He broke two of them actually. The Matter of Horus' body and the Essence of his soul were forced into nonexistence. They were not converted or anything, they were truly, one hundred percent, obliterated.

[Loesh]

Ahhh I see, makes sense.

[Conn Eremon]

Except, Horus' body was not obliterated. Just the soul. The bodies of both the Emperor and Horus are dragged away by their followers. Horus' body is interred, revered and worshiped, for a time.

 

It was certainly damaged, I'm sure. I doubt the corpse was unscathed. It might not even have looked like Horus anymore. Or human, for that matter. But there was still a body.

[Kol Saresk]

Except, Horus' body was not obliterated. Just the soul. The bodies of both the Emperor and Horus are dragged away by their followers. Horus' body is interred, revered and worshiped, for a time.

It was certainly damaged, I'm sure. I doubt the corpse was unscathed. It might not even have looked like Horus anymore. Or human, for that matter. But there was still a body.

You think I would have remembered that considering I have the Collector's Edition of Talon of Horus right here in front of my face.

[A D-B]

So, I'm re-reading it, and you know what? It's better on the re-read, with no expectations to colour it. I now want to make all of my guys take the black, but I am resisting.

 

My sole criticism now is that Khayon doesn't feel like a Thousand Son, in terms of way of thinking and stuff, but that may have been deliberate as a way of distancing him from his Legion, so I'm willing to see where it goes.

 

It sounds really dumb, but I find the lack of references to the... damn, I forget the word. Enumerations? Irritating. They struck me as a standard way of thinking for the Sons is all. I guess part of the point may be that Khayon has moved past the need for them possibly, but it's something I'd have liked mention of.

 

It doesn't sound dumb. It's an interesting point. And there are a few ways to look at it.

 

The first is that Khayon is pretty much a prototypical Thousand Son in terms of how he acts, thinks, and perceives things, based on a lot of classic Thousand Sons lore. Especially in the melancholic scholarly vibe of their Index Astartes article and their Codex Chaos info. Ahriman doesn't use the Enumerations in the Ahriman series, and he doesn't feel like any less of a Thousand Son because of it. 

 

The second is that the Enumerations are standard in A Thousand Sons. They're a cool idea and I like them a lot, but they're also pretty recent and not a universal thing that binds every author. And in all honesty, even if and when other authors write about the Thousand Sons in the Heresy, I wouldn't expect to see every author use them universally. There are a squillion ways to work psychic power in the setting, and a lot of different rituals, techniques, and processes for sorcerers to work with. The same way Native American shamanism, voodoo, prayer, Enochian ritual, Wicca, and so on all have means of achieving the same thing, but do so through vastly different processes.

 

The third (and a very cool in-universe angle) is that given the two Thousand Sons we've seen in detail post-Heresy (Ahriman and Khayon) don't use them, the Enumerations are either an archaic process - used when the Thousand Sons were on the very first steps of a much longer path, or something that various Thousand Son warbands still use rather than universally spread across every sorcerer. And there's a wealth of fairly dense/complex sorcery in Talon already. 

 

So on one hand, saying Khayon doesn't feel like a Thousand Son for not mentioning the Enumerations is a bit of a reach, applying a very narrow and recent criteria to what a Thousand Son 'should' be - ruling out Ahriman himself. It's just one angle of all we've seen of the Legion over 25 years. But on the other hand, it's a good point. That idea obviously resonated with you, and it's not wrong to want to see more of it, or expect a mention here and there. I'll keep it in mind, dude.

[Excessus]

...it might be that the Thousand Sons doesn't need the enumerations any longer and that's why they don't use them. As I understood it they were a system of keeping the mind focused and to not loose control. After the Rubric of Ahriman, the sorcerers that were left were empowered by Tzeentch, and I would assume that means focus and control as well.

[Karthak]

I suppose the biggest compliment I can give this book is that I want Abaddon dead more than ever now.

 

By that I mean that as long as he was being portrayed as this armless failure it was safe to laugh at and ignore him. Now, however, he's a legitimate threat. The legitimate threat.

 

It's rather strange actually. Usually my reaction to the protagonists surviving some deadly peril is to be relieved, but with this lot I'm disappointed every time they survive. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adored the book and I'll be devouring the rest of them as soon as they come out. Is cognitive dissonance the right word? When Khayon does something badass I'm enjoying it, but at the same time I've got a voice in my head saying that for the good of the galaxy and all that lives he and his companions need to die as quickly as possible. "Scratches head."