angel2burst Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 So in 6th ed the faq stated that the banner only work on bolt guns, combi-bolters, and hurricane bolters. In 7th ed this is missing from the faq so in RAW it works on all bolt weaponry, such as storm bolters and heavy bolters and bolt pistols. I just want a second opinion from you guys since i want to run this in my deathwing army to increase my firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 No, BoD only works with bolters/combi bolters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It does work on Hurricane bolters too though doesn't it? (I am recalling this from an older conversation where was said that a 'bolter' was redefined in the new rulebook to include Hurricanes as part of the Bolter classification.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Yes it does work with hurricane bolters because hurricane bolters are basically bolters strapped together as per the description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkProdigy Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Personally i think it should work with storm bolters and I see the omission from the FAQ as intentionally giving back a little needed firepower to terminators, but I find it hard to give up my company banner or fortitude so I have yet to try and run it that way. Besides hurricane bolters are already the stuff of legends with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Think of it this way: If you think a storm bolter or a heavy bolter is the same thing as bolter because it is a boltgun type weapon what stops your bolter armed marines to fire their bolters as heavy bolters... if it was all the same? Boltguns is the type of weapon... bolter or heavy bolter are subtypes... BoD is keyes to subtype bolter, not to the boltguns group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Quite honestly if SoD affected storm bolters DW would be a much more competitive army. I once convinced a friend to let me play his grey knights with that rule, it was a MUCH different game than I've had in the past with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 What about a list of BOLTGUNS type of weapons in brb page 176? It states all types of weapons firing self-propelled bolt explosives are to be considered as boltugn, or bolter at the beginning of the sentence which indicates that these two names are equivalent to each other, they mean the same thing. And it is not RAI, it is pure RAW for you. In our paper version of book, p.66 it says treat their boltguns as salvo weapons. Now, it would be great if GW would enlighten us once again (no matter that it happens rarely), does "boltgun" from our codex means what it ment in 6th as only boltguns or does it mean BOLTGUNS type of weapon from new brb? I think that it may be similar case to our PFG, yet I may be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 It would actually not be over-the-top if the Banner of Devastation applied to all bolt weapons. Boltguns(including the boltgun portion of a combi-weapon), bolt pistols, and hurricane bolters get the most effect, stormbolters would get a boost when stationary, and heavy bolters would gain both a mobile effect and a slight boost when stationary. But, yes, GW needs to get a handle on the use of their jargon so that things are perfectly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 This year's ETC Faq stated that it worked on all bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 This year's ETC Faq stated that it worked on all bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters etc. The ETC have a load of rules which you wouldn't normally apply as does each competition. The Banner states "all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons." If you check the wargear on a tac it says "Boltgun" (all 1 word) in the Terminator entry it states "Storm bolter" Also the hurricane array states "A hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked boltguns fired as a single weapon" So I'm much at a loss as to how it can ever be read as including anything in the codex where you can pull the word bolt from it, the PFG is different the rules as they normally work have a 3" from the vehicle and it was nerfed with an FAQ I think incorrectly as the 4+ should have included the vehicle itself even if they nocked the 3" off. They've now pulled the FAQ part and given that its months since they've done it all you can do is go back to 3" from the Vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raztalin Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 This year's ETC Faq stated that it worked on all bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters etc. The ETC have a load of rules which you wouldn't normally apply as does each competition. The Banner states "all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons." If you check the wargear on a tac it says "Boltgun" (all 1 word) in the Terminator entry it states "Storm bolter" Also the hurricane array states "A hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked boltguns fired as a single weapon" So I'm much at a loss as to how it can ever be read as including anything in the codex where you can pull the word bolt from it, the PFG is different the rules as they normally work have a 3" from the vehicle and it was nerfed with an FAQ I think incorrectly as the 4+ should have included the vehicle itself even if they nocked the 3" off. They've now pulled the FAQ part and given that its months since they've done it all you can do is go back to 3" from the Vehicle. I think the confusion is simply drawn from the BrB listing on Page 681 Digi version: BOLTGUNS The Boltgun, or Bolter, fires a small missile ... etc etc Types of Boltgun: Bolt Pistol Boltgun Storm BOlter Heavy Bolter Vulcan mega-bolter Standard of Dev (Page 139 DA digi dex): Any friendly Codex: Dark Angel unit within 12" etc etc In addition, all friendly DA units within 6" treat their Boltguns (including twin-linked boltguns, the Bolter component of combi-weapons and Hurri Bolters) as Salvo etc / etc The last list doesnt say its exclusive to those listed entries so could get refered back to the list ion the BrB. Personally, I would treat it affecting only Bolters and whats listed above. Would i love it to apply to more - hell yeah! This seems to be a circular argument that we see pop up time and time again on the forums. YES GW should clarify once and for all, but if you just go by whats written (in the latest versions of the releaes) then you cant really go wrong. Its a bit like the cheese with the Lions Roar ... people saying it doesnt list Single / One use ... no it doesnt, or it didnt until a recent update; but look at it this way, it does say its a combi weapon with a Plas Can attachment. Look at Combi weapons in any Dex and they do say they are single use ... ergo you have a single use Plas Can shot on your Bolter...again would I like it to be unlimited use ... Hell yes! But alas it isnt... Probably not added much to this conversation; just wanted to express my thoughts though! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 That's funny... how they've muddied the water with the digi version. As a side note, one thing to remember is that we are talking about 6" here. Not army wide. In fact against a lot of opponents, they'd love to see you bunch your army up in a nice template shape about 6" around. Like playing against Astra for example, I don't get near the use out of the banner as I'd love to, but the reality is I'd get clobbered if I did.... I wish it did apply to the Avenger though as my Nephifail would be thusly renamed the Nephiwin ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ania Redfang Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I wish it did apply to the Avenger though as my Nephifail would be thusly renamed the Nephiwin ! Why would it make the Nephalim a Nephiwin? I'd rather have 5 shots than 4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 My mistake then, thanks for the correction. At least there's no need for the name change then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I tend to use the following rule when playing with this stuff Do I believe it is meant to work with anything other than boltguns - No Would I be prepared to trawl through the book in the vague hope of convincing my opponent mid game - No It could do with a straight answer from GW dunno why they removed the Q&A or at least updated it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ania Redfang Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 To me, it isn't unclear, as there's a clearly defined section of the ranged weapon list in the rulebook called "boltguns". If the gun is in there, then it's affected. If not, it isn't. This list has on it Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters and Vulcan Mega Bolters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 They should have been called "Bolt Weapons" the same way the name is "Plasma Weapons" and "Melta Weapons." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 To me, it isn't unclear, as there's a clearly defined section of the ranged weapon list in the rulebook called "boltguns". If the gun is in there, then it's affected. If not, it isn't. This list has on it Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters and Vulcan Mega Bolters. I am not sure why anyone argues over this. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to the following question. Since this is a DA only item, and it only affects units from the DA codex, why would anyone feel compelled to seek justification outside of the DA codex? I can understand going to the main rule book if you were trying to figure out how two items from different codices worked together. But this one is self contained. It just seems like the people in your camp are reaching. Like they decided how they think the item should work and then went to find the justification. Isn't it simpler to just start with asking how does this item work. But hey that is just the way I solve problems... I simplify them. I take away all of the extraneous crap, and I look for the solution as close to the problem as possible. After all no one would buy it if claimed that my tactical marines were all carrying Vulcan Mega Bolters.... cause after all it says that they are carrying Boltguns...the BRB say that Boltguns include Vulcan Mega Bolters. And besides, Vulcan Mega Bolters fit my fluff better. Just my thoughts. *EDIT* oops Avenger Mega Bolters are not in the BRB.... changed it to Vulcan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 RAW would dictate that storm bolters, bolt pistols, etc benefit from the banner once more. Logic would assume that it would only be the basic bolter, but alas, GW has become fat and lazy. Instead of modifying the original FAQ for the few changes to 7th, they just copied and pasted a few of the original changes and added fixes for the worst of the 7th problems. I know the general consensus might be to consider rules as intended, but that's really impossible. What was the intention of missile lock? Oh, it was a typo. What was the intention of limiting veterans to 3 upgrades? Oh... it was a typo. What was the intention of taking away terminator sergeant options in the last FAQ? GW won't even proof read their stuff. Can't say that I'm going to guess what their frame of mind is when they are producing rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 http://www.socal-synthetics.com/wpimages/wp802f39f7.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 After all no one would buy it if claimed that my tactical marines were all carrying Vulcan Mega Bolters.... cause after all it says that they are carrying Boltguns...the BRB say that Boltguns include Vulcan Mega Bolters. And besides, Vulcan Mega Bolters fit my fluff better. Mwahahahahaha This one is excellent... Never noticed that as I'm mostly using my french version... Btw, for me there's no problem : the BRB contains "bolt weapons", the Banner affects "bolters" and my marines are equipped with "bolters"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 And to think I bought limited edition bug for 60gbp....... They don't know it yet but they won't get a penny from me. Ever. Again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 After all no one would buy it if claimed that my tactical marines were all carrying Vulcan Mega Bolters.... cause after all it says that they are carrying Boltguns...the BRB say that Boltguns include Vulcan Mega Bolters. And besides, Vulcan Mega Bolters fit my fluff better.Mwahahahahaha This one is excellent... Never noticed that as I'm mostly using my french version... Btw, for me there's no problem : the BRB contains "bolt weapons", the Banner affects "bolters" and my marines are equipped with "bolters"... It doesn't go both ways. A vulcan mega bolter is a boltgun. A boltgun is not a megabolter. That would be like saying a powerfist is a melee weapon, so all melee weapons are powerfists. That doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raztalin Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 After all no one would buy it if claimed that my tactical marines were all carrying Vulcan Mega Bolters.... cause after all it says that they are carrying Boltguns...the BRB say that Boltguns include Vulcan Mega Bolters. And besides, Vulcan Mega Bolters fit my fluff better.Mwahahahahaha This one is excellent... Never noticed that as I'm mostly using my french version... Btw, for me there's no problem : the BRB contains "bolt weapons", the Banner affects "bolters" and my marines are equipped with "bolters"... You're lucky to have a Dex that is that clear - as our English one explcitly states "Boltguns" as I posted above and then in brackets example of these "Boltguns". We all know what it really is implying, even though is so badly written that we get these threads popping up every other week, and anyone trying to wrangle it for any other type of weapon knows really they shouldnt.... I have been thinking about this - and GW did release a list of the weapons affected in a previous FAQ / Errata ... Yes they have managed to drop that entry from the latest one, but come on - are we now using that as an excuse for it being reverted!? They are slack, they missed it off the latest one, and still havent updated it - but we all know what it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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