Deathwing Help, please.

[FashaTheDog]

So I have been looking to expand my Deathwing portion of my Dark Angels and finally found a sprue with five sets of Terminator legs, torsos, shoulder pads for $14 making the Deathwing box finally worth it to me to buy as I'll effectively get, after discounts and shipping, ten Deathwing for the retail price of one box.  To start I own the following Deathwing:
 

Belial - magnetized for all options

Company Master - Storm bolter, power sword

Company Master - Storm bolter, power claw, sword, auxilary grenade launcher (you know the old mini), 25mm base

Librarian - Storm bolter, force axe, 25mm base

Chaplain - Storm bolter, 25mm base

5 Terminators - Sgt, assault cannon, 2 chainfists, 25mm bases

2 Sergeants - Storm bolter, power sword

1 Sergeant - Thunder hammer, storm shield

1 w /Assault cannon

3 w/ Chainfist

3 w/ Thunder hammer, storm shield

3 w/ Lightning claw

4 w/ Storm bolter, power claw

4 w/o arms (extras owned: 1 set of TH/SS, 3 pairs of lightning claws, 4 storm bolters, 4 power claws, 1 heavy flamer, 1 power sword, 3 assault cannons)

2 with only power claws

Venerable Dreadnought w/ choice of assault cannon, lascannon, plasmacannon, and power claw w/ choice of storm bolter or heavy flamer

 

Once I get a Deathwing box, I will take the plasma cannon and heavy flamer to give to the one armed pair.  That would give me a squad breakdown of:

 

5 Terminators - Sgt, assault cannon, 2 chainfists, 25mm bases

5 Terminators - Sgt, assault cannon 1 chainfist

5 Terminators - Sgt, plasma cannon, 1 chainfist

5 Terminators - Sgt, heavy flamer, 1 chainfist, 2 w/ Lightning claws

5 Terminators - Sgt w/ TH/SS, 3 w/ TH/SS, 1 Lightning claw

5 Deathwing Knights

9 Terminators w/o weapons

 

I will probably toss the sprue's cyclone missile launcher on a TH/SS Terminator and demote the Company Master on the 40mm base to sergeant status for another squad.  Now what I put to everyone, is what should I do with nine unarmed models?  I will not remove the arms on any of the completed models, so those three lightning claws stay, although where they end up is undecided.  I have over a company's worth of power armor, a dreadnought, trio of Rhinos, some Ravenwing, and a bit less than a half company of Scouts so discounting all of that, what would be the best idea for pure Deathwing?  I have a few ideas, but I keep changing my mind on the arms and squad layout.

 

For now, I think a Command Squad is clearly in order with a halberd, banner, and Apothecary but that still leave two members unarmed and what about others?  Here I keep waffling and need the most help so please feel free to throw out any ideas and any squad layout changes.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I would say keep the Command squad at Hand to hand. TH/SS or two and Twin lightning claws. Honestly though Deathwing Knights are better hand to hand I've found. You've got to have a Command squad because we are the First Legion and we do things right. But I would say try and get the bits for another set of 5 Knights if you can. Best most reliable hand to hand I've found so far.

 

Personally looking at your stuff I would get at least one or two more heavy flamer guys in there. They make an awesome first turn drop and delete a unit with Beacons or Belial for non scatter. Especially with all the xenos/assassins lightly armored msu type units out there a Heavy Flamer can be the perfect I want you to remove those models.

[FashaTheDog]

A second set of five Knights are out of the question at this point as this is mainly to make the contents of a single box and a great eBay deal go farthest.  Looking at the sprue, I will have for arm choices after I take care of the two one armed guys with heavy weapons as indicated above, the Apothecary, and Champion:

1 set of TH/SS

1 storm shield

4 pairs of lightning claws

2 right arms w/o hands - hands: 4 storm bolters, 1 power sword, 1 thunder hammer

4 storm bolters (right hand)

1 storm bolter (left hand)

8 power claws

1 chainfist

1 heavy flamer

1 power sword (left hand)

4 assault cannons

 

The command squad actually has three models with open choice of weapons, since the standard does not dictate weapon choice, thus making your idea of a pair of TH/SS and a pair of lightning claws easy enough to do with the parts at hand.  That leaves me with the other four models, which you suggest I arm with a heavy flamer and for a little variety in painting I'd add a chainfist, so I could end up with the following for Deathwing units:

 

Belial

Librarian (25mm)

Chaplain (25mm)

Company Master (25mm)

Command Squad - Champion, Apothecary, Standard w/ TH/SS, 1 w/ TH/SS, 1 w/ lightning claws

5 Terminators - Sgt, assault cannon, 2 chainfists (25mm)

5 Terminators - Sgt, assault cannon 1 chainfist

5 Terminators - Sgt, plasma cannon, 1 chainfist

5 Terminators - Sgt, heavy flamer, 1 chainfist, 2 w/ lightning claws

5 Terminators - Sgt, heavy flamer, 1 chainfist

5 Terminators - Sgt w/ TH/SS, 1 w/ TH/SS & cyclone missile, 2 w/ TH/SS, 1 w/ lightning claw

5 Deathwing Knights

Venerable Dreadnought w/ choice of assault cannon, lascannon, plasma cannon, and power claw w/ choice of storm bolter or heavy flamer

 

Worth considering, although I could steal a lightning claw guy from that one squad with the pair of them and instead so that heavy flamer squad gets another storm bolter.  I wonder if perhaps adding a heavy weapon to the Command squad might be worth it since Vengeful Strike makes those weapons that much better.

[SvenONE]

I think mixing your command squad is the best you can do.  Champion/ 3 models with your choice of LC or TH/SS and a heavy weapon and banner.  I don't do this because my command squad is usually either all of one or all of the other (just how I modeled them).

 

The biggest problem about LC terminators is that any charge through difficult terrain is now I1, so you may as well have left the power fists on or went the full TH/SS route.  Or you can pepper in LC terminators into a squad that's arriving via landraider.  Our ability to bring LC terms in normal squads (and the sarge w/Sword) is sort of a similar function to how Necron Wraiths work (whip coils).  Despite them being I2, the whip coils basically insure the fact they'll get to throw out all their attacks before you and thus decreasing your chances to have those attacks at your own initiative.

 

From a gameplay standpoint pure Deathwing's power comes from it's extremely mobile (dozer blades) and extremely durable (7th edition vehicle damage rules + Deathwing Vehicle), we have perhaps the best Landraiders in the game even more so than Raven Guard (scouting Landraiders) or Iron Hands, though they get those bonuses for free.  The investment (as expensive as it is) in the transport is to limit loss and maximize the fact your models will get into combat at full strength.  So I think you're going to need some LRCs if you want to run a pure DW list and not get tarpitted by Boyz or Plague Zombies, or shot to pieces by Guard/Tau/Eldar while walking across the table.

 

However from a fun standpoint, as tactically crazy as it may be, you haven't really lived until you deep strike your entire army (haven't done it in 7th yet, but I've done it in apoc games in 6th) onto the board.  Footslogging all those terminators isn't as MUCH a gamble as Deep Striking, but still has the risk of of being shot to pieces.  So the list like you have above can make that happen.

[FashaTheDog]

As I said, I am mainly stumped on these nine guys to optimize what I have. I am not really in need of expansion advice as a whole as I am well aware of what I would like, but that damned Krieg army and now the prospects of a Mechanicum army are really making Land Raider purchases highly unlikely anytime soon. As it stands getting a drop pod for that Dreadnought keeps getting pushed to the wayside; perhaps a tournament will bail me out on that .

The thing is if I run them as just Deathwing, which am I apt to do to for variety as I have loads of other armies, I want to at least not regret the hours I will spend painting these guys. Nothing would bug me more than needing to tear off arms and repaint the model and magnetizing never seems to be as aesthetically pleasing because I see the joints' small gap and get bothered by it (Belial drives me nuts on this). The three lightning claw clowns I have have never really impressed me much, but on the same token they have also never really failed me either. Tossing them into to bulk out a unit providing extra meat shields that swing at initiative if charged has proven useful enough in the past when coming in in support of power armor and bikes.

[SvenONE]

Well I think it will just come down to what you can actually fit into a list of whatever values you normally play at.  Most of my lists are 1850, with the occasional 1500 and 2000, once in awhile I'll have a 2000+ game in which I can afford to field everything I want.  So I think for you it might be best to just pick your milestones and work from there.  I think the words "optimization" and "Deathwing" don't exactly go together.  With how expensive they are, it comes down to how much you can fit in your list.  When setting up a DW army the questions are really this:

 

Dedicated transport: Yes or No

Heavy Weapons: CML or Assault Cannon (PC and HFs are ok, but unreliable)

Command Squad: Yes or No

If Command Squad: Which Banner

 

It then comes down to how much room you have to buy TH/SS or not.  But I'll say from experience, 10 TH/SS terminators is more than sufficient in an army of any point size.  So really my answer to your last 9 models, make 5 of them extra bodies in case you want to make a squad a full 10, or if you want to make them 6-7 models a piece.

 

Also, note that you can't given Sergeant a TH/SS in the DA Codex.

[Brother dean]

Well you can with just the codex, but then you cannot mount a CML on a TH/SS termie. With the faq you cannot upgrade the sarge...

[FashaTheDog]

Wait, I'm confused.  The wording says "any model can replace all his weapons" in the codex FAQ'd to "any model can replace his storm bolter and power fist" so I see how that precludes the sergeant from taking a TH/SS, which is inconvenient as I converted a Dark Vengeance sergeant to have a TH/SS, but as for the CML it says "take a cyclone missile launcher" with no mention of replacing any other weapon as it does for the other three entries.  What am I missing?

 

As for what I meant by optimization, I was thinking more from a model standpoint, not list.  The entire sergeant not having a TH/SS issue brought to my attention is exactly the thing I am looking for as in order to have the option of six troops choices I will need to make one of those armless Deathwing a sergeant.  I play Apocalypse often enough that being able to bring all my Terminators to the table in a variety of configurations is really tempting.  Even in regular games, I like to have choices enough. 

 

As for that sergeant, perhaps he will be a Company Master with a Hammer of Redemption and a Displacer Shield on the occasions he is not an overdressed squad member.

[Brother dean]

The original wording in the book says "Replace all weapons with LC or TH/SS" which meant that they had to lose the CML...  They fixed the CML and made it worse (the sarge thing) with the same FAQ.

[Solrac]

I think the whole reason they changed it in the first place was to stop us giving our Sarges TH/SS for challenge purposes in mixed squads because vanilla marines can't. I reckon the faq change was fine but they should have added a sentence like "if all terminators in the squad take LC or TH/SS, the sergeant can also take LC for free, TH/SS for 5 points."

 

No use beating a dead dog tho, I doubt it will change any time soon. My local players don't mind if I take 5 TH/SS termies as its no different to a vanilla termie assault squad.