brother_contagion Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Are you able to make an Unbound army and still take an allied detachment so that the detachment can get objective secured? Or are Allied Detachments only for Combined Armed Detachments? As in, if I wanted to take some allies from the Ally Matrix in my Unbound army, the allies would also count as being Unbound. Not sure how that works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Are you able to make an Unbound army and still take an allied detachment so that the detachment can get objective secured? Or are Allied Detachments only for Combined Armed Detachments? As in, if I wanted to take some allies from the Ally Matrix in my Unbound army, the allies would also count as being Unbound. Not sure how that works. Unbound armies can have Detachments in them, but only Formations keep any benefits. Detachments do not retain any Command Benefits (which Objective Secured is) while in an Unbound Army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 So for a Formation that contains Troops, its troops would be Objective Secured but not the Troops in an Unbound army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 So for a Formation that contains Troops, its troops would be Objective Secured but not the Troops in an Unbound army? If the Formation provides its members with Objective Secured, then sure. I'm not aware of any, though. Even in Battle-Forged lists, Formations wouldn't have Objective Secured. That seems to be exclusive to Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Tyranid Invasion Rising Leviathan II - Skyblight Swarm formation gives all Gargoyles Objective Secured. This is the first appearance of the rule Objective Secured, predating 7th edition. Additionally, Pedro Kantor's Hold the Line special rule is not specific to a Battleforged army, allowing friendly units of Sternguard Veterans with the Imperial Fist chapter tactic to gain Objective Secured. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Unbound armies can have Detachments in them Unbound armies *cannot* have any Detachments. Bar one, the Primary Detachment. This Detachment is an automatic one, and is made of all units which share the same Faction as your Warlord. And is a detachment in name only. It has no restrictions, FoC or command benefits. You cannot take an Allied Detachment, Nemesis Strikeforce or Company of the Greatwolf (for example) in an Unbound Army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Well, you can, but you garner no benefits from doing so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 You can't. All other mini used in an Unbound army not of the Warlords Faction are lumped together. This can't be a detachment, as its made up of mulitple facitons. And every detachment in the game has a single faction restriction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 You can bring the exact same models. You just don't get the benefits because of the carnifex in the corner. So yea. You can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Raeven, you can bring the exact same models, but they aren't in a detachment. It's specifically *not* a detachment. If it is which detachment do they belong to? The whole point of an unbound army is you don't go near Detachment, or thier Benifits, Restrictions or FoCs... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 As I clarified. I meant models and not detachments. Quit arguing when we are in agreement. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 My apologies! :D /salute Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Unbound armies can have Detachments in them Unbound armies *cannot* have any Detachments. Bar one, the Primary Detachment. This Detachment is an automatic one, and is made of all units which share the same Faction as your Warlord. And is a detachment in name only. It has no restrictions, FoC or command benefits. You cannot take an Allied Detachment, Nemesis Strikeforce or Company of the Greatwolf (for example) in an Unbound Army. Incorrect. There is the Primary Detachment and Formations. In addition, the rules for Detachments has the following: Don’t forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method – it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits. So yeah, you CAN take Role Detachments in an Unbound Army, they just don't help you by doing so. The only exception to this is the Chapter Tactics rule, it starts to get rather fuzzy at that point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 You can't... What happens when you try to use a Space Marine Formation in an Unbound army with a Space Marine Warlord? Those Marines in the Formation *must* be in the Warlords Primary detachment. (It's *this* Detachment that is referenced about the no restrictions/command benefits) Unbound armies can't use any other formations or detachments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 They can. From Formations: Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation. I have given several quotes now from the BRB supporting my position. Prove them wrong, if you have a case. As to your Warlord question, Formations are their own Detachment, no exceptions. They can be the Primary Detachment if the Warlord is in it, but they cannot be pushed in to another. I know this may be counter to arguments I've made in past threads, but my understanding of these rules has improved largely because of threads like this where I force myself to look it up even while 'knowing' the answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Oh my. I've totally missed that in the BRB. At least that shows that you can't take NSF etc in Unbound armies. Hmmm. Having your Warlord in a Formation would be a problem. That would force all units from that Faction to be in the same 'Detachment' as the Formation, which might not be possible if the Formation can't contain all the units... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Oh my. I've totally missed that in the BRB. At least that shows that you can't take NSF etc in Unbound armies. Hmmm. Having your Warlord in a Formation would be a problem. That would force all units from that Faction to be in the same 'Detachment' as the Formation, which might not be possible if the Formation can't contain all the units... I look at it this way, Formations are not codices and separate books that just use the codices for reference, thereby leaving themselves as a Faction within a Faction. It does start to get fuzzy if you run two copies of the same Formation and one is Primary, though. From that perspective also comes the possibility that Tactics=Faction, and only units operating with the Warlord's Tactics would be in the Primary, instead of all from the codex itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 That would be cool, if Formations weren't stated to be of the same Faction as the Codex the units come from. Seems to be another case where the RAW falls down. RAI is undoubtedly that you can run whatever Formation/s you want with whatever other minis you want in an Unbound army. But the RAW doesn't support this as it forces same faction into a single Primary detachment, which could break formations. The whole Primary detachment thing for Unbound is bogus anyway. It wasn't needed. And messes up more than just Chapter Tactics it would seem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296531-unbound-and-allied-detachments/#findComment-3805950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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