grey knights vs daemons

[Shadrach03]

So my friend uses GK allies in his lists but has several armies including daemons. He asked me to come up with a list to combat 2 different armies of CD.One army would be primarily Khorne and the other would be a summoning army.

 

At 1850 points I think purifiers, incinerators and the gatling psilenser go up in value.

 

The problem I was running into came to the relics. I think the soul glaive pulls ahead of the cuirass and the liber daemonica well help with the addition of banishment to the rotation. The bone of solor can actually be of use without gimmicks.

 

I was thinking of a grand master with incinerator and soul glaive and a level 3 librarian with the liber daemonica, staff and combi melta is what I would go for.

 

Any thoughts?

[Everon]

Fit Stern into there. His unique version of banishment could be helpful and guranteed sancutary. +1 invul and forces dangerous terrain for daemons within 12" I believe. Dont have it infront of me at the moment.

 

Hopefully your libby can get it with the liber. But I would say your looking set for daemons

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Daemons are, no surprise, our best matchup by far. They really only have 3 problem units, the rest is trash we easily outgun or outpunch. due to our many bonus rules against them. 

 

Daemon Prince: This is gonna be hard, as its both an FMC, and typically a Nurgle one as well (for a 2+ Jink save). On the plus side, in 7th he has to land first to charge you. 'Cleansing Flame' is really the only way to reliably ground him, and even then you have to get through his T6 and 3+ armour.

 

Soulgrinder: Dreadknight kills it before it can swing, squad hammers will down it but you may lose the squad in the process. Our psycannon and other anti-tank will bounce off it sadly, you need high Strength melee attacks.

 

ScreamerStar: Two ways to counter it. Deny his casting of 'Forewarning', or if that fails stack 'Banishment' onto the unit. In melee turn on 'Force' and 'Hammerhand', you'll need both, and I' strongly suggest challenging. Interceptors and Dreadknights will catch it, our other stuff is generally too slow.

 

 

In terms of weapon selection, psycannon is generally the least useful. Incinerators get through Nurgle 'Shrouded' and wound all his infantry on 2's, plus the only 3+ armour saves in the army are on MC's anyway. Gatling psilencer (do not take the infantry version) on Dreadknights is solid gold with 'Force' up, the re-rolls to hit and wound on 1's is very handy. Assuming you denied 'Forewarning' or stacked 'Banishment' onto them, a ScreamerStar will evapourate under 1-2 gatling psilencer.  

[Captain Coolpants]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor.

 

Only thing I can think of for such enemies are psylencers/heavy psylencers with prescience and force active, and just hope to get lucky by hitting on a 6,then wounding on a 6,then your opponent just happens to fail it's armour/jink save :-\

[Quozzo]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor.

 

Only thing I can think of for such enemies are psylencers/heavy psylencers with prescience and force active, and just hope to get lucky by hitting on a 6,then wounding on a 6,then your opponent just happens to fail it's armour/jink save :-\

Storm Raven? our answer to flyers... a flyer! You could try taking the one that could roll vortex of doom, for 50 points extra (or something)

[Captain Coolpants]

But it still gets it's 2+ jink :-\

 

And I've heard about this psyker raven before, what is it? Is it that pilot ace or whatever it's called I seen on my battlescribe app? And would that even still be valid because our vehicles are no longer psykers for some reason (maybe servitors drive/pilot now?)

[jeffersonian000]

Kind of wish Purgation and/or Dreadnoights got a Skyfire/Interceptor special rule. It would have made either of them good choices rather than non-choices. Can you imagine duel Gatling Psilencer Dreads with Skyfire? How would that not find itself in every list, competing for points?

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Screamerstars, Fateweaver or Psychic Princes.

Culexes.

For everything else. Dreadknights.

[jeffersonian000]

Come to think of it, duel Gatling Psilencer does sound like a fun conversion. And so does a duel Heavy Psycannon Dread, or a duel Heavy Incinerator Dread!

 

GW so dropped that ball. : (

 

SJ

[Happy-inquisitor]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor.

 

Only thing I can think of for such enemies are psylencers/heavy psylencers with prescience and force active, and just hope to get lucky by hitting on a 6,then wounding on a 6,then your opponent just happens to fail it's armour/jink save :-\

My first instinct would be to use the librarian to shut down most of its attacks while I hunt down the cheap chaff that it is using as warp charge batteries.

 

Of course if it gets near my Purifiers it's always worth a try at grounding it with 2D6 cover ignoring hits.

[Brom MKIV]

I think the relics and weapons are gonna be pretty straight forward so I'll mostly leave those alone and just give some general insight. First thing to know is that GKs vs daemons is gonna be bloody. GK are designed to be anathema to deamons but they have a lot of tools to deal with elite PA/TDA armies too..very cheap very fast killy units, High warp charge, high init ap2 weaponry, invulns, grinders etc. A lot is gonna depend on the skill of the player and the luck of the psych phase but either way I would want to stay at range for as long as possible. Draigo is a trump card here if placed properly since he will own center field and allow your stormbolters to remain effective. The bone shard looks like it can perform a similar function now as well.

 

Personally though I would suggest an MSU approach (as much as GKs can muster) mobility (not just pseudo from DS) and another vote for multiple DKs with gatling psilencers and some mobile incins, and of course cleansing flame. Ranged force and cleansing flame is the scariest thing for that army.

 

I wouldn't expect a GK unit without the bone shard or draigo to survive an assault from from most things khorne or slaanesh tbh. Due to this I would not be looking to close with him. He will do that on his own and DSing into his lines is gonna end badly unless he's running the old pure FMC/summoning spam list (which he shouldn't be cause that build is pretty poor in 7th IMO and especially vs GK). 

Also I would still want some form of anti tank simply because most daemon armies I see are running 2-3 grinders + grimoire at minimum. Despite the strength of GKs in combat they need to fear tz grinders with grimoire or invis. These things are savage and will chew units up, even IKs. Likewise phlegm is pretty good against GKs unless your going ultra elite with a terminator wing.

 

If hes taking CSM allies the spell familiar will make his psych much stronger and brings the potential for burning brand on a DP too. This is one of the few ways I'd say an FMC is worthwhile for daemons anymore due largely to the power of the familiar, but I'm sure somewhere people are having success with flying circus too. Belakor is a powerhouse but lack of the familiar makes the DP a very attractive alternative. I wouldn't expect either to be staying on the board until later in the game when threats to them have been eliminated.

 

Anyway I would also expect mauler fiends (although not the usual token spawn units if hes wise). If your tooling for him I assume he's tooling for you and I would go mechanized daemon engines vs GKs.

If I were to build daemons to match against GKs it would probably start with a CSM allied CAD and put 4-5 walkers down + screamers and likely hounds too. Ya ID is a thing but at 8 pts a wound or 16 with ID they are still massively efficient and outside of draigo/bone shard no GK ICs like to face init 6 ID ap2 hatred attacks from the herald.

Ranged force can sort both of them out pretty well I assume, but remember the screamers should still get the alpha strike with slash and can tarpit long enough to put something killy into the combat plus they still throw ap1 attacks around. 

 

Also a bunker/bastion for horrors and herald(s) inside to conserve warp charge initially is pretty strong here. 

 

Lastly remember though daemons can pull NSF tactics just as good if not better in this match up because they want to close where GKs usually don't. If you do use a heavy reserve strategy use it defensively. A lot will depend on initial deployment. If hes in your lines turn 1 or visa versa its gonna be rough. 

 

Anyway thats my experience. YMMV..

[Shadrach03]

Wow, that is quite the outpouring of insights to the deamon army.  I don't get to play too often and this is going to be a huge help in deciding which route to take but here is my first crack at a list geared for the deamons.  

 

Stern-in a combat squad of termies

 

Librarian-lvl 3 liber daemonica, stave in combat squad of purifiers

 

purifiers-10 combat squaded out, 2 hammers 4 falchions 4 halbs (part for points and because i have some modeled that way)

 

terminators-10 combat squaded out, 3 hammers, 5 falchions, 2 halbs 2 incinerators

 

interceptors- 5 1 hammer, 1 incinerator, teleport homer

 

stormraven- tl multi melta, tl assault cannon, locator beacon

 

dreadknights-2 with teleporters, swords, psilencers and incinerators, 1 warlord

 

I guess that their ap2 melee comes from heralds using etherblades is it?  There's so many wierd wepons and powers in that book it's hard for me to keep track but that makes the bone shard seem more important for sure or trying to fit draigo in there somehow. 

 

An alternate would be to drop the interceptors, change the termies to 2 six man squads, drop stern and add draigo in there.

[shandwen]

Oh, and if you can fit it (not likely as it will cost almost as much as a termie squad) a vindicare on a quad gun or icarus is great. Bs8 ignoring cover, against a flyer. It is great. Expensive, but incredible for interceptor, then shooting his rifle during your turn.

[skarn]

GK are great against any psychic deathstar - just throw psyk out grenades at it! I actually used gating pallies with draigo and a couple of shunting interceptor squads to cripple a screamerstar last weekend.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor. 

 

Hence my suggestion of 'Cleansing Flame'. It ignores the absurd 2+ cover save, it wounds on a 5 (but you have 2D6 hits to play with), and you only need one failed save to ground him, thus letting your other weapons a clear run at him (his Jink goes away when he crashes, so you'll only have to deal with a 5+ cover save from 'Shrouded', assuming he faceplants in open terrain). 

 

Storm Raven? our answer to flyers... a flyer! You could try taking the one that could roll vortex of doom, for 50 points extra (or something) 

 

 

'Death From the Skies' isn't even vaguely legal anymore, due to our Ravens losing 'Psychic Pilot'. Raven is actually the worst idea, because you still need to cut through the Prince's 2+ cover saves, which none of the Raven weapons ignore (and you can't give it 'Perfect Timing' either). 'Cleansing Flame' is your only real hope, and even then you still need to pour firepower into the Prince once he faceplants. 

Kind of wish Purgation and/or Dreadnoights got a Skyfire/Interceptor special rule. It would have made either of them good choices rather than non-choices. Can you imagine duel Gatling Psilencer Dreads with Skyfire? How would that not find itself in every list, competing for points?

 

Jervis can't forge that narrative, so no. Knights have a relevant special rule on their fire support units? Perish the thought. 

Culexes.

 

We're talking about Grey Knights GL, but yes, Culexus is insanely good against Daemons (the only ranged weapons that can even target him are only on the Soulgrinder and Skull Cannon, everything else is Psychic). 

Come to think of it, duel Gatling Psilencer does sound like a fun conversion. And so does a duel Heavy Psycannon Dread, or a duel Heavy Incinerator Dread!

 

 

Woah woah. Being able to select two of the same weapon system freely? Who do you think we are, Tau? Crazy talk man. 

My first instinct would be to use the librarian to shut down most of its attacks while I hunt down the cheap chaff that it is using as warp charge batteries. 

 

Libby with stave is solid gold against their mostly psychic shooting. Even against the Mastery 3 Tzeentch Heralds, he denies on a 4+, and against Princes and other stuff he denies on a 3+. Even more auto-include. Take the Liber for extra rage as you put 'Banishment' out like a pro. 

[Quozzo]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor.

Hence my suggestion of 'Cleansing Flame'. It ignores the absurd 2+ cover save, it wounds on a 5 (but you have 2D6 hits to play with), and you only need one failed save to ground him, thus letting your other weapons a clear run at him (his Jink goes away when he crashes, so you'll only have to deal with a 5+ cover save from 'Shrouded', assuming he faceplants in open terrain).

Storm Raven? our answer to flyers... a flyer! You could try taking the one that could roll vortex of doom, for 50 points extra (or something)

'Death From the Skies' isn't even vaguely legal anymore, due to our Ravens losing 'Psychic Pilot'. Raven is actually the worst idea, because you still need to cut through the Prince's 2+ cover saves, which none of the Raven weapons ignore (and you can't give it 'Perfect Timing' either). 'Cleansing Flame' is your only real hope, and even then you still need to pour firepower into the Prince once he faceplants.

But then, how would you get the purifiers into range of an FMC

[Captain Coolpants]

With the valiant steeds of the 41st millennium!...... .

 

 

Rhinos! Haha. If they don't blow up turn 2 that is...

[Happy-inquisitor]

A psyker Flying plague Prince will be super hard to deal with I think. Because it doesn't even need to assault. Can just fly around jinking and casting summoning and shooty powers. A lot like balkalor.

Hence my suggestion of 'Cleansing Flame'. It ignores the absurd 2+ cover save, it wounds on a 5 (but you have 2D6 hits to play with), and you only need one failed save to ground him, thus letting your other weapons a clear run at him (his Jink goes away when he crashes, so you'll only have to deal with a 5+ cover save from 'Shrouded', assuming he faceplants in open terrain).

Storm Raven? our answer to flyers... a flyer! You could try taking the one that could roll vortex of doom, for 50 points extra (or something)

'Death From the Skies' isn't even vaguely legal anymore, due to our Ravens losing 'Psychic Pilot'. Raven is actually the worst idea, because you still need to cut through the Prince's 2+ cover saves, which none of the Raven weapons ignore (and you can't give it 'Perfect Timing' either). 'Cleansing Flame' is your only real hope, and even then you still need to pour firepower into the Prince once he faceplants.

But then, how would you get the purifiers into range of an FMC

Draigo with GoI. His warlord trait is also solid gold vs daemons. If you ground it Draigo is right on the spot to finish it off.

[Raktra]

The flying Nurgle DP is T5 guys, so Cleansing Flame is even better than we're putting across here.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The flying Nurgle DP is T5 guys, so Cleansing Flame is even better than we're putting across here.

Nah T6, because doesn't Mark of Nurgle still give +1 Toughness? Maybe I've been playing that wrong...

But then, how would you get the purifiers into range of an FMC

I meant 'Raven is a bad idea by itself'. Obviously, as a delivery system, its unmatched and its your go-to choice ;) just kinda absurd that our DEDICATED FLYER WHO HUNTS FLYERS can't kill a Nurgle Prince, but an infantry unit with a funky psychic power amazingly hard-counters it.

[narrativeforgingintensifies]

[Shadrach03]

On CSM is gives them +1T but on a daemon prince it gives out shrouded and slow and purposful.

[Warboss dakka slugga]

On CSM is gives them +1T but on a daemon prince it gives out shrouded and slow and purposful.

My mistake, i read the comment wrong

[Reclusiarch Darius]

On CSM is gives them +1T but on a daemon prince it gives out shrouded and slow and purposful.

 

 

Top kek. SnP means nothing because they have Relentless as well. Jink+Shrouded on a unit that most can only Snap Shot? 

 

Ah well, at least they're only T5. Could be worse I suppose. 

[Everon]

Question. Since I've only been playing for a couple months and never ran into this; but if their close enough, can't you just snap shot them with an incenerator / heavy incenerator?

[Happy-inquisitor]

Question. Since I've only been playing for a couple months and never ran into this; but if their close enough, can't you just snap shot them with an incenerator / heavy incenerator?

No snapshots with template or blast weapons. Although if for some reason you have skyfire you can hit them. Other than mysterious objectives it will be hard to get skyfire.