Crowe

[Quozzo]

I'm not sure if this has been answered before but hopefully someone will know.

 

If Crowe kills an opponent in a challenge, does the wounds he inflicted that carry over to the unit also have AP2? That may be the deciding factor for me to take him but I'm afraid I already know the answer.

 

Damn, wrong forum, to the GK forum please, not the OR one, they scare me.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think anyone can answer this.

 

FAQ needed.

 

Good catch! :)

[Everon]

if I remember right smash means you can only make 1 ap 2attack. If I am wrong then yes, the attacks do carry over because they were made during said challenge.

[Gentlemanloser]

IIRC it's half attacks.  Can't remember the new Crowes A stat.

 

It would depend on the wording of his rule.  If he gains Smash for the Challenge, then it would follow that attacks or wounds not part of the Challenge wouldn't have Smash.

 

We're given no indication in the BRB about how modifiers to Challenges carry over to units.

[HiveFleetKelari]

Smash confers two things in 7th:

1) All CC attacks are at AP2.

2) You can forgo your normal number of attacks in favor of a single attack at double your strength.

 

In regards to the attacks spilling over having AP2, my initial thought would be yes, since Crowe gains the Smash USR while in a challenge. Was Crowe in a challenge? Then all of his attacks are AP2, whether they all end up being directed at the model he was in a challenge with. The biggest problem with Crowe is that his attacks are AP- when he's not in a challenge... 

[stephane4985]

I don't think the strength and ap of an attack can be change once it has been done. I mean at the time of the attack and the roll to wound, they are ap2. And they are directed to the character, the fact that the wounds carry over has no impact on the characteristic of the attack that was already done.

[stephane4985]

The challenge is not over until you have resolve all the wounds inflicted. Usually, state are changed at the end of a phase or turn. Or at best, a init step in an assault phase.

[stephane4985]

More specifically, here is from the brb

 

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless

of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of

the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below)."

[Gentlemanloser]

the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of

the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces

 

 

 

Can't access books at work.  Are the spill over wounds part of 'outside forces'?  If not, then this wouldn't apply.

[stephane4985]

"Outside Forces:

Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate

Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are

locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting

in a challenge are the closest models."

 

So the only section about outside force specifically speak about the other models in the unit. So Every models, even in the same unit, which are not part of the challenge, are considered outside force.

[Gentlemanloser]

But that's not the spill over wounds from the Challege, is it?

[stephane4985]

Does not matter. They are wounds and the challenge is still ongoing. So they benefit from the ap2. This is that simple.

[Gentlemanloser]

It might.

 

The passages you have quoted are only relevant for outside wounds being allocated to those involved with the Challenge.  Not the other way round.

[stephane4985]

No, they don't specify which way. They specified what are outside force (as other models in that combat) and they say that for all thing related to them, the challenge is ongoing. Assigning wounds to them is related to them.

[Gentlemanloser]

It does...

 

 

 

other models locked in the combat can only allocate

Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are

locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties

 

 

Not the challengee's.

[stephane4985]

That part is irrelevant. It explains how to assign wounds from other to the challengee, as you said. We are talking the other way around. We know wounds spills over. What we want to know if they are ap2. For that, the only thing that needs to be respected, is that the challenge is ongoing. And the rules tell us that for the purpose of outside force, it is still ongoing. And what ate outside force? Other models in that combat that are not part of the challenge.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

That part is irrelevant.

 

No, the quotes you have provided are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

They pertain to the rules of those outside the challenge allocating wound inside it.  Not the other way round.  That's the outside force mentioned. (Unless parts of that section have not been posted).

 

I'll have a look when I get home form work and have access to my books.

[stephane4985]

Outside force are use in both quotes/rules. They are only defined in one of this rules but refer to in the other. (By the "see below" text). That does not means that because it is only explain in one of the rule, that the only definition for it is not valid in the other rule that is explicitely referring to it.

 

Anyway, check it out when you get home but I really don't see the problem here. Their are alot of badly written rules by gw, but I don't see this as one of them.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, I've had a look.

 

The rules for excess wounds in a Challenge is under "Combatant Slain".  The Outside Forces section is only for wounds applied by those not in the challenge.

 

Outside Forces (and therefore the blurb about the Challenge being ongoing until the end of the Phase) have no bearing on the 'Combatant Slain' rules.

 

What we need to look at is when a Challenge is considered over for those in the Challenge.

 

There is little to determine the 'Duration of the Challenge', with the assumption being the Challenge itself continues until Combat Resolution.

 

It's quite possible that the Challenge itself finishes when one combatant is slain.  If this wasn't the case, there would be no need for;

 

 

 

regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered ongoing until the end of the phase for the purpose of Outside Forces.

 

If all challenges always last until Combat Resolution at the end of the phase, for all reasons, the above would be meaningless.

 

 

Basically, GW need to clarify when a Challenge ends for the models involved *in* the Challenge, and whether Challenge specific buffs spill over to those outside the Challenge.

 

It makes little in world sense for Crowes master swordsmanship in a man on man duel to also apply to the unit as well. 

 

Just give him smash and be done with it.  That would probably make him attractive enough to use anyway. ;)

[Shadrach03]

I hope they rule in favor of Crowe on this one because I'm not sure how many teeth he can have left to pull.  

[Valerian]

Agree with HiveFleetKelari - the spillover Wounds would still be AP2.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

We can't say for sure that the Challenge is still ongoing.  Or if the Challenge stops the moment a combatant dies.

 

If the challenge stops, then Crowe loses Smash.

[Valerian]

We can't say for sure that the Challenge is still ongoing.  Or if the Challenge stops the moment a combatant dies.

 

If the challenge stops, then Crowe loses Smash.

 

The Wounding Hits are all determined at the same time within the Challenge with the batch roll of SvT tests.  Since they're simultaneous, they all go into an AP2 Wound Pool.  Now, whether it's the first of those AP2 Wounding Hits that kills your opponent, or the last, it doesn't matter as they happen altogether.  If is any but the last that kills the opponent, then the others spill over to the rest of the unit, but there should be no reason that those Wounding Hits should suddenly change type.

 

It's how I'd play it, for sure.

[Quozzo]

I'm starting to lean the other way after reading the comments in here. Whenever an attack is made, those wounds go into a wound pool and then each is resolved. If anything changes (Like losing hammerhand somehow) then those wounds would have still been inflicted no matter what happens afterwards.

[Captain Coolpants]

regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered ongoing until the end of the phase for the purpose of Outside Forces.

Well it actually says the challenge isn't considered over until the next turn basically. Meaning that, say the characters were fighting at initiative step 5 (so fighting first) then the one character dies, then all the squad members can't attack the lone character until the next turn. Therefore as the book says the challenge is still considered ongoing, then the challenge rules are still in place, so the spill over wounds are still ap2.

 

I'm probably completely wrong, but that's how I read it.

 

But even if I have read it wrong, the wounds and attacks have already been generated, and it doesn't say anything about him suddenly losing his attacks or ap2 the very second the other character dies, just says when he's in a challenge, which he still is until the next phase (according to the rules) . So either way, both of my interpretations leaves his spill over attacks as ap2.

 

 

 

Not that any of this matters for me! I'm never going to take him haha :P