When did this start?

[Loesh]

I'v been trying to remain as objective as possible(Though it's not very possible.) when talking about this subject in 'Where is chaos going?' thread, i'm a SUPER huge Emperors Children fanboy, I admit it.

 

I just worry that the Black Legion could potentially get that bad, when one of the legion themes is 'success' you run the risk of the other legion themes becoming 'failure' and so I look towards the Black Legion changes with a wary eye.

 

That said ADB, I do like a lot of the lore they have gotten lately. :p

[Vesper]

It's not so much about successes and failures.

My paradigm is more about dominance. The Black Legion end up being the apex predator in a world of predators.

Doesn't mean the others suck. They're different. They have other goals, other issues, other concerns. Just because they aren't as big in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean they are less interesting.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd like to start off by explaining exactly what I mean when l speak of "Black Ultramarines".

 

For starters, nobody is a Space Marine fan. Or a Chaos Space Marine fan.

 

What the fandom is (lMO) is a collection of Ultramarine fans, Black Legion fans, fans of the Iron Warriors, the Red Corsairs, the Black Templars, the lron Hands, the Lamenters and the Purge and that one Chapter/Warband in the background in that one novel with the really cool name.

 

And all of us, in our heart of hearts, know that our little tribe of guys is the best tribe.

 

Then along comes a Codex (or a novel) which states that one particular grouping is not just really, really good, but that they are supreme. All the other groups either admire and emulate them, or they are a dying off side show.

 

Don't like it? Too bad. We're putting on our shades and telling you to deal with it. This tends to not go over well.

 

As far as Abaddon himself goes...when people talk about how he's surpassed Horus in every way, surpassed the Emperor, how the Chaos Gods need him more than he needs them...well, at that point, he ceases to be this cool guy warlord grappling with an impossible task who just keeps on keeping on because SCREW YOU, laugh all you want, Dark Gods...one day, one day, I WlLL BE KlNG! (A guy I would gladly march on Cadia with) And he becomes this boring unstoppable doom guy who is just sort of generically better at everything than everybody. Even the Chaos Gods.

 

I will say this isn't a knock on Talon, l haven't read that yet (because my books are made of dead trees AS GOD lNTENDED).

[A D-B]

As far as Abaddon himself goes...when people talk about how he's surpassed Horus in every way, surpassed the Emperor, how the Chaos Gods need him more than he needs them...well, at that point, he ceases to be this cool guy warlord grappling with an impossible task who just keeps on keeping on because SCREW YOU, laugh all you want, Dark Gods...one day, one day, I WlLL BE KlNG! (A guy I would gladly match on Cadia with) And he becomes this boring unstoppable doom guy who is just sort of generically better at everything than everybody. Even the Chaos Gods.

 

That's the trick. We've had decades of being told, without really being shown, that Abaddon was great, the best, etc. and a lot of people memed it up because they didn't see it, believe it, or care about the admittedly contradictory presentations. He's always been, to some degree, "this boring unstoppable doom guy" to a lot of people, with no evidence for why he was so unique and successful. That's at the core of the Black Legion's "generic" image - people understandably struggled to see just how unique the Legion is, as is the man that leads it.

 

And hopefully, that's changing now. The Chaos Codex was a decent step in that direction, and I hope the Black Legion Series takes it onward. It's time for all of that stuff to have some freaking detail and context, as well as some explanation and revelation.

[A D-B]

For starters, nobody is a Space Marine fan. Or a Chaos Space Marine fan.

 

...

 

And all of us, in our heart of hearts, know that our little tribe of guys is the best tribe.

 

Also, joking aside, I quite literally don't know anyone that thinks that way. I like some Chapters more than others, but no, I'm definitely a Space Marine fan. I'm not a Blood Angel fan to the point I think they're the best or most interesting. There's a key difference between having a favourite and thinking they're the best. I like fantasy fiction. I don't think it's the best fiction. It's less like sports, where you tend to like one team, and more like reading, where you like several genres but probably like one the most without thinking it's objectively the best.

 

I don't think you can swing phrases around like "Nobody is X" with a straight face. People having trouble choosing armies/Chapters/Legions is a gloriously common problem that serves as proof it's not true.

[incinerator950]

Yeah, I'm done. Artistic integrity be damned.

[Prot]

The point is that until recently the Red Corsairs had much more charisma as an Undivided and bastard army than the Black Legion. Huron was well explained by the various snippets of lore about the Badab War. His goals were clear from day one and the colour scheme diverse enough to make it special in the eyes of the players.

 

 

 

I agree. I actually found the most recent treatment of Abaddon to be extremely similar to the portrayal of Huron.

 

Huron's charisma draws the oddest of characters towards him. He's quirky, humorous, quite insane, but he has this underlying swell of power than you know you just don't want to mess with. Sound familiar?

[Loesh]

 

For starters, nobody is a Space Marine fan. Or a Chaos Space Marine fan.

 

...

 

And all of us, in our heart of hearts, know that our little tribe of guys is the best tribe.

 

Also, joking aside, I quite literally don't know anyone that thinks that way. I like some Chapters more than others, but no, I'm definitely a Space Marine fan. I'm not a Blood Angel fan to the point I think they're the best or most interesting. There's a key difference between having a favourite and thinking they're the best. I like fantasy fiction. I don't think it's the best fiction. It's less like sports, where you tend to like one team, and more like reading, where you like several genres but probably like one the most without thinking it's objectively the best.

 

I don't think you can swing phrases around like "Nobody is X" with a straight face. People having trouble choosing armies/Chapters/Legions is a gloriously common problem that serves as proof it's not true.

 

 

I'm this way in a somewhat more limited capacity. I like the Emperors Children a lot and think they are the best and most interesting...to me and I think that's an important qualifier. I researched the Chaos Legions and their gods in detail, but when I came to the EC I immediately latched onto them. I think I could be said to be a 'Emperors Children' fan(And their associated warbands.) rather then a 'Chaos Space Marine' fan.

 

That said. I recognize people have different tastes and ideas. Despite that obvious bias I recognize people do not swiftly come to their choices all the time, a person may like four, five, or more different legions. I might think the World Eaters are a bore but I understand...or try to understand...why people like them.

[Wade Garrett]

I just realized that post refers to Abaddon as "a guy l would gladly match on Cadia with".

 

Ummmm.

 

And when l was talking about "the best"...well, in my case, I am not saying I think the Word Bearers are the most strongest and everybody in the Eye of Terror wants to be them.

 

They are the guys I like the best (spot occasionally contested by Night Lords, World Eaters, and Death Guard). And by the same token, there are some factions of traitors who just don't do it for me, and I react to them with a resounding "meh". (Or on occasion "NOOOO" :p ).

 

Thus, I personally can't say I am a fan of Chaos Marines in general.

[A D-B]

For starters, nobody is a Space Marine fan. Or a Chaos Space Marine fan.

...

And all of us, in our heart of hearts, know that our little tribe of guys is the best tribe.

Also, joking aside, I quite literally don't know anyone that thinks that way. I like some Chapters more than others, but no, I'm definitely a Space Marine fan. I'm not a Blood Angel fan to the point I think they're the best or most interesting. There's a key difference between having a favourite and thinking they're the best. I like fantasy fiction. I don't think it's the best fiction. It's less like sports, where you tend to like one team, and more like reading, where you like several genres but probably like one the most without thinking it's objectively the best.

I don't think you can swing phrases around like "Nobody is X" with a straight face. People having trouble choosing armies/Chapters/Legions is a gloriously common problem that serves as proof it's not true.

I'm this way in a somewhat more limited capacity. I like the Emperors Children a lot and think they are the best and most interesting...to me and I think that's an important qualifier. I researched the Chaos Legions and their gods in detail, but when I came to the EC I immediately latched onto them. I think I could be said to be a 'Emperors Children' fan(And their associated warbands.) rather then a 'Chaos Space Marine' fan.

That said. I recognize people have different tastes and ideas. Despite that obvious bias I recognize people do not swiftly come to their choices all the time, a person may like four, five, or more different legions. I might think the World Eaters are a bore but I understand...or try to understand...why people like them.

I just realized that post refers to Abaddon as "a guy l would gladly match on Cadia with".

Ummmm.

And when l was talking about "the best"...well, in my case, I am not saying I think the Word Bearers are the most strongest and everybody in the Eye of Terror wants to be them.

They are the guys I like the best (spot occasionally contested by Night Lords, World Eaters, and Death Guard). And by the same token, there are some factions of traitors who just don't do it for me, and I react to them with a resounding "meh". (Or on occasion "NOOOO" ).

Thus, I personally can't say I am a fan of Chaos Marines in general.

Yeah, it's a thing of degrees. There's a danger of fixating on this minor sub-point and losing the real discussion, so I'll leave it here and say that "Yeah, I get what you mean."

[Loesh]

Well, going back to the Black Legion then I think it's also partially going from one extreme to the other that's jarring people. distancing from Failbaddon will be a somewhat long process, and there's the everpresent danger of going too far and becoming 'Abby Sue' hopefully there's a balancing out point that can be struck where Abaddon and the Black Legion can be fallible, but still be the, or at least one of, the major threats to the Imperium and taken seriously.

 

For a bit while they are expanded on perhaps it's best we sit back and let them try and find that balance before critiquing too heavily, if they go too far overboard hopefully it will be recognized and reeled in.

[Kol Saresk]

One of their warbands was annihilated by Honsou in a double cross. That's pretty fallible.

[Prot]

Well, going back to the Black Legion then I think it's also partially going from one extreme to the other that's jarring people. distancing from Failbaddon will be a somewhat long process, and there's the everpresent danger of going too far and becoming 'Abby Sue' hopefully there's a balancing out point that can be struck where Abaddon and the Black Legion can be fallible, but still be the, or at least one of, the major threats to the Imperium and taken seriously.

 

For a bit while they are expanded on perhaps it's best we sit back and let them try and find that balance before critiquing too heavily, if they go too far overboard hopefully it will be recognized and reeled in.

 

 

The way he's currently written, he does indeed feel omnipotent. BUT I always viewed that Abaddon's true achilles heel was all the guys he's running with.... You know the saying.... It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.

 

This is why I still like the different feel of something like Crimson Slaughter. Still a coherent chapter. A 'feel' at least of brotherhood and more of a hate for the imperium rather than a love of space hippies (daemons).

[Iron Skull Mask]

Don't know, but when I and a pal started out with CSM as our 2nd armies, we chose them because they had more detail on their models than loyalists. When we settled for legions, one choose Night Lords the other IW. Why? Because from what we got out of the 2nd Ed codex, the 4 original legions (well, let's say 8 counting in the marked ones) each had a distinct character we liked much more than the "let's paint it all black" catch all Black Legion thing. Even from their lore the Black Legion always seemed to have kind of an identity crisis, starting with the frequent name changes then absorbing everything. Sure, you can turn that around and say: "Catch all is great, allows you to do everything!" (and sells more of everything, probably), but that is not how we saw it back then, and it's not how I see it personally nowadays.

 

If you put it in Game of Thrones terms, the black legion is like the Night Watch, while the other 8 are like one of the houses of Westeros. I sure kind of like the Night Watch, but would prefer to be a knight or lord whatever small over being the lord commander anytime.

 

And I bet that SM players feel the same way about the Ultra Marines.

[Loesh]

One of their warbands was annihilated by Honsou in a double cross. That's pretty fallible.

 

Quite, and the Red Cosairs I believe also duped them, plus...as I like saying...the Emperors Children knocked Devram Korda out of Sarora. :p

 

Maybe it's just because I used to be pretty deep in Warcraft which has WAY more problems then any lore here, but i'm willing to give Games Workshop some leeway. Wait and see, hopefully it turns out well.

[A D-B]

Well, going back to the Black Legion then I think it's also partially going from one extreme to the other that's jarring people. distancing from Failbaddon will be a somewhat long process, and there's the everpresent danger of going too far and becoming 'Abby Sue' hopefully there's a balancing out point that can be struck where Abaddon and the Black Legion can be fallible, but still be the, or at least one of, the major threats to the Imperium and taken seriously.

 

For a bit while they are expanded on perhaps it's best we sit back and let them try and find that balance before critiquing too heavily, if they go too far overboard hopefully it will be recognized and reeled in.

 

That's actually a significant factor, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. You could argue, and make a good case, that given Abaddon's position in the lore there's quite literally no way you can overstate his threat to the Imperium or his place as the license's Big Bad. But even ignoring that, you mention the worry of it going from one extreme to another, but... well, where has that actually been done? There are vague allusions to Abaddon's supremacy in the current Codex... which have always been there, anyway. That's pretty much the way it's always been. There's been a dataslate with very little information beyond some fantasy-style quests for magic artefacts. A supplement with some vague battles and a few more victories, but it's not exactly a treasure trove of new information or a significant shift in lore. And there's been a novel which about 2,000 people have read, wherein Abaddon does something he's always said to have done in the lore for X years, set even before the Black Legion exists. And in Pandorax, he... gets betrayed by Huron? Almost fails in his objectives? I've not read it, so I'm not sure, but there've been no rousing statements online about a tick on Abaddon's success record there. Quite the opposite. He's a brutish, uncharismatic barbarian in the Heresy series, which is his most detailed portrayal to date. Where's the extreme, here? Where's the immense competence to offset all the memes of failure?

 

See, this can be argued both ways.

 

It's not about making him suddenly awesome. There's no shift from one extreme to another. That's my point. There probably needs to be, as long as it's handled well, and I don't see how it could be handled better at this early stage, honestly. There should be a shift, if people are to take the character seriously, but some folks are taking the intent, and even the very first baby steps, done with actual subtlety and care, to be "going from one extreme to the other". We've always been told he's... well, what he is. Showing that, giving it context and detail and background, isn't a sin. It's explanation and clarification. Who will genuinely see it as going from one extreme to the other? To do that you'd need to misunderstand what he was in the first place, which is shaky ground to form an opinion on, and then to resent what he's supposed to be in the licence.

 

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?

[Fury_of_Fenris]

I've found the fluff for their characters cool and interesting, but i dunno compared to the other traitor legions they just seem sort of boring, too uniform and the black and gold scheme is a little dull

 

The other legions and their remanents just seem a little bit more insane and have alot more flavour. It's sort of like when they don the black they just become another plain marine. 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

One of the things I'm most interested to see is how Abaddon handles things when he does fail. Because, lets face it - he's approximately 10,000 years old, so he will have made some pretty major screw-ups in his time [well, maybe not 10k, because of the Warp, but whatever].

 

No one is ever 100% successful, but people who are generally successful are considered that because of the way they handle any failure they do experience. Abaddon is at least partially so significant because in all this time, all his delicate plans haven't crumbled to dust around him. Yeah, some of the Black Crusades did fail, but somehow he remained the scariest guy that Chaos has despite it all - that alone makes him remarkable.

 

I wanna see that. I want to see his plans come so close to utter oblivion it looks like he might be toppled. And then I want to see him calmly put it all back together.

[Wade Garrett]

Opinion time:

 

My personal point of "No, you have gone too far, studio!" came when the idea that Abaddon somehow has the Chaos Gods dancing to his tune began to be semi-seriously bantered around.

 

To me, that's the tragedy of him and the Black Legion, that the powers that let them fight the Long War have a vested interest in seeing they never win it.

 

To paraphrase the show Angel...the Ruinous Powers have no interest in anything as mundane as winning. They just go on.

 

For instance, Khorne is the lord of war. He'll help you win battles, but he has no intention of ever letting you have a lasting victory that would enable you to put down your sword.

 

Slaanesh will bring you pleasures, but never satiation. Nurgle will let you keep on keeping on, but he isn't going to better your circumstances, and Tzeencht always has something more to know.

 

And these are Abaddon's backers.

[A D-B]

Opinion time:

 

My personal point of "No, you have gone too far, studio!" came when the idea that Abaddon somehow has the Chaos Gods dancing to his tune began to be semi-seriously bantered around.

 

Yes and no. Yes, insofar as eternal supernatural forces made out of conflicting emotion can "want" anything while eternally screwing themselves over because they're raw chaos, and no, because none of that's in any published stuff pushing the envelope today. I can understand people reading my blog and not trusting me enough to handle it with subtlety, but that's not what the debate was - it was the idea that it's gone from one extreme to the other already. And there's no case for that, when we've seen practically no change at all. A behind-the-scenes essay on my blog about lore that's been in various creators' heads for a decade-plus doesn't count, because it's just authors chewing over the metaphysics of the background. It's not new and - crucially - not published. It doesn't affect the wider license in terms of a change now. 

 

So what, exactly, is the case for things going from one extreme to the other, as of now? ( I mean in the general sense, not to you personally, Wade. You know what I mean.)

 

That's the kicker. 

[hornywingythingy]

(because my books are made of dead trees AS GOD lNTENDED).

Amen brother!

[A D-B]

One of the things I'm most interested to see is how Abaddon handles things when he does fail. Because, lets face it - he's approximately 10,000 years old, so he will have made some pretty major screw-ups in his time [well, maybe not 10k, because of the Warp, but whatever].

 

No one is ever 100% successful, but people who are generally successful are considered that because of the way they handle any failure they do experience. Abaddon is at least partially so significant because in all this time, all his delicate plans haven't crumbled to dust around him. Yeah, some of the Black Crusades did fail, but somehow he remained the scariest guy that Chaos has despite it all - that alone makes him remarkable.

 

I wanna see that. I want to see his plans come so close to utter oblivion it looks like he might be toppled. And then I want to see him calmly put it all back together.

 

I've had a similar idea for a story arc. Backstabbing, rivalry, and betrayal will have their place, but I love the idea of something significant - maybe even a Black Crusade - absolutely collapsing against all preparation. Things will go wrong. Failure will be complete. The Black Legion will be left reeling and in disarray, and Abaddon and the Ezekarion will have to pick up the pieces.

 

Characters have to be threatened over the course of their lives. That's crucial in any narrative, and a sign of terrible writing if they're neither challenged nor threatened at any point. And it can come in many ways beyond just a physical threat, too. Part of the benefit of it being the Black Legion Series, not the Abaddon Series, is that the Legion itself can come under myriad threats from all angles. Just because they're in ascendance by the Dark Millennium doesn't mean the path to dominance was easy or smooth, and doesn't have plenty of ups and downs in trying to keep the crown.

 

But, again, if the fandom's perception of Abaddon is the "Failbaddon" meme and the "failed" Crusades - and going by the actual lore and character's arc - there have to be successes first. You need something to be built up before you can endanger it. As great as Abaddon's defeats will be to write, there needs to be successes to balance them against. And that's where this topic of "from one extreme to the other" falls down. So far, we've seen very little success, and a lot of the fandom famously disbelieves it. Any change in that, no matter how subtle, will run the risk of being taken as an extreme.

[A D-B]

This topic is making me want to go back to playing Chaos Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Come back A D-B, the Aphotican Oath needs you!

 

EDIT:Funnily enough, I have both Aphotican Oath threads bookmarked on my phone it's interesting to look back and see how one incarnation was Black Legion, another the Word Bearers before ending on the Night Lords.

[Wade Garrett]

Wait wait wait.

 

I wasn't talking about the Magnificent Abaddon Background piece. That's what I was cribbing the bulk of my "The Pathos of being Ezekyle" rant from!

 

It was that bit about Abaddon sitting alone, pondering his own worthiness, and having the answer come back "Yes...one day it will all be yours" that made me start to engage with him as something besides this angry, shouty man with an admittedly cool topknot who putters around the Eye of Terror being genericly menacing.

 

Now, the idea that he has a vision beyond that of Horus...

 

Horus:

"I will seat myself on the Emperor's throne with blood and fire and be king of everything forever."

 

Abaddon:

"I will do the exact same thing...while rocking an awesome topknot."