When did this start?

[A D-B]

Come back A D-B, the Aphotican Oath needs you!

 

EDIT:Funnily enough, I have both Aphotican Oath threads bookmarked on my phone it's interesting to look back and see how one incarnation was Black Legion, another the Word Bearers before ending on the Night Lords.

 

My pathetic inability to play anything I write strikes once more. 

 

Plus, how long it'd take me to paint Chosen. Egads.

 

 

Snip.

 

You're my everything, Wade.

[Quixus]

Opinion time:

 

My personal point of "No, you have gone too far, studio!" came when the idea that Abaddon somehow has the Chaos Gods dancing to his tune began to be semi-seriously bantered around.

 

To me, that's the tragedy of him and the Black Legion, that the powers that let them fight the Long War have a vested interest in seeing they never win it.

 

To paraphrase the show Angel...the Ruinous Powers have no interest in anything as mundane as winning. They just go on.

 

For instance, Khorne is the lord of war. He'll help you win battles, but he has no intention of ever letting you have a lasting victory that would enable you to put down your sword.

 

Slaanesh will bring you pleasures, but never satiation. Nurgle will let you keep on keeping on, but he isn't going to better your circumstances, and Tzeencht always has something more to know.

 

And these are Abaddon's backers.

I think that is a problem with the setting in general. There cannot be a lasting victory, because that would end the universe. The Emperor cannot die or ascend to godhood, the tyranids cannot eat the whole galaxy, the chaos powers cannot win (remember the Cabal) etc. So portraying any character as successful at conquering the galaxy seems pretty implausible in a universe that depends on preserving the status quo. Well that is unless GW does something like White Wolf.

[Xenith]

[quote name="A D-B" post="3807539" timestamp="1410540207"

 

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?In my opinion (and which is inded, fact) the 'Fail-badon' meme that has been mentioned is made and perpetuated by people that totally misunderstood the lore around Abaddon, and indeed his actions, either through lack of proper reading, or poor comprehension.

 

These guys either:

 

A ) Wont read the book, but complain about it online

B ) Will read it, but not understand why Abaddon hasn't reached terra by the end of the first book, and complain about it online.

 

This generally means that they will be unsatisfied no matter what you do, and should not pander to them (not that you would).

[Trevak Dal]

But would you say that they are starting to consume the fluff to the point that (again, exaggerated)"All Must Be Black Legion!", or that as the poster child of Chaos on the GW side of things, they just happen to be reflective of the current rulestate of the very faction they're supposed to represent?

Well...Crimson Slaughter seem to be the new "poster Children" of Chaos (also providing a dynamic 'clash' of Red Vs Blue if you were to play against a Ultramarine army) since they are on all the box fronts.  *shrugs*  Legions are dead, warbands are all that's left.  Abaddon's does what any aspiring gang leader does and proverbially "herds the cats" that are his disparate Space Gang together into a Chaos Waaagh against the Imperium for very specific but non specified objectives.

 

I've thought about doing a Black Legion warband, because I'd kind of like to have a Black army.  Nobody has a black army here, but I don't particularly like the background, or abaddon all that much.  He's too expensive, and doesn't deliver enough bang for the points he costs.  I'd feel 'hemmed in" like I did with my Red Corsairs having to take Huron, etc.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why is it insulting or controversial to portray Abaddon as being really powerful? Because the old background was poorly written by the studio? The studio sucks and we all know it. We're lucky he even gets his own series that will explain why he's so scary to everyone. 

[Xenith]

I've thought about doing a Black Legion warband, because I'd kind of like to have a Black army.  Nobody has a black army here, but I don't particularly like the background, or abaddon all that much.  He's too expensive, and doesn't deliver enough bang for the points he costs.  I'd feel 'hemmed in" like I did with my Red Corsairs having to take Huron, etc.

Your Black Legion has to be led by Abaddon every single time, as much as your red corsairs have to be led by Huron.

 

i.e. They don't at all.

[Bat33.1]

Isn't the whole point of Black Legion and Abaddon having some light shone at them to give them a depth and complexity of background that's been lacking, well forever?

 

We have a list of things they've been credited with but no depth to the how or the why. I'm prepared to give this a go and see where the ride takes us.

 

That said I've never fully nailed my colours to one CSM warband or Legion over the years but thats more down to my failings and butterfly tendancies when I see something else pretty to build and paint. If I had to go with one it would be probbaly be the Night Lords or maybe the Iron Warriors, or no wait I really like those pretty new Gal Vorbak Word Bearers...but there I go again ;)

[Shuggnuggath]

I kind of wonder if the Black Legion are really this happy multi-cultural chaos melange the GW seems to present.

Is the some resentment amongst the old SoH vets against all the Johnny come lately's thronging to join the crew? Are they treated like second class citizens?

 

It would be interesting if there was an 'old guard' type character who had a lot of political pull amongst the veterans and was outspoken but difficult to remove because his disappearance may fracture the legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

Human history would teach us to eliminate rivals early, fight it out, rebuild from the leftovers. Abby had 10K years to do this.

[Vesper]

I kind of wonder if the Black Legion are really this happy multi-cultural chaos melange the GW seems to present.

Is the some resentment amongst the old SoH vets against all the Johnny come lately's thronging to join the crew? Are they treated like second class citizens?

 

It would be interesting if there was an 'old guard' type character who had a lot of political pull amongst the veterans and was outspoken but difficult to remove because his disappearance may fracture the legion.

 

Doubt it is multicultural. They appear to have a culture of their own.

 

[Shuggnuggath]

I guess I was just pondering if the fellas that followed the Warmaster to Terra were starting to feel a bit lost in the Black Legion soup. I thought it might be interesting if a conspiracy evolved amongst the old dogs.

[Tenebris]

I really dont get you guys. At long last the head figure of our faction, Abaddon the Despoiler, is getting some much overdue love. His is the same case as Archaon from WFB, they are the icons of Chaos yet both were either neglected or worse, diminished in the fluff. Now Abaddon is getting a series about him and trough him the Black Legion will be expanded upon. This is a very important thing for us of Chaos for our main character, our main warlord and warmaster is at long last growing into a character.

 

As it is the Black Legion will grow with his main character and both were victorious or defeated countless times, yet unlike the other chaos legions, those two entities, the first a black leviathan and the second its master persisted in their quest. That is the whole point of them.

 

On my part I am excited about anything new about our faction, and Talon of Horus should be a moment of celebration for us Chaos Space Marines for trough our warmaster we will learn more about ourselves, about all legions, all warbands for hopefully we will learn more about the nature of Chaos and the Eye.

 

Is this the moment when the Black Legion will become the ultimate CSM faction? No for this is the very antitheis of Chaos and if you all would have done your homework as you claim you did, you would already know this. The Black Legion in M41 is mighty indeed, perhaps the mightier of them all chaos legions, but inevitably neither it or Abaddon can fight their way to Terra alone.

[Loesh]

 

Well, going back to the Black Legion then I think it's also partially going from one extreme to the other that's jarring people. distancing from Failbaddon will be a somewhat long process, and there's the everpresent danger of going too far and becoming 'Abby Sue' hopefully there's a balancing out point that can be struck where Abaddon and the Black Legion can be fallible, but still be the, or at least one of, the major threats to the Imperium and taken seriously.

 

For a bit while they are expanded on perhaps it's best we sit back and let them try and find that balance before critiquing too heavily, if they go too far overboard hopefully it will be recognized and reeled in.

 

That's actually a significant factor, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. You could argue, and make a good case, that given Abaddon's position in the lore there's quite literally no way you can overstate his threat to the Imperium or his place as the license's Big Bad. But even ignoring that, you mention the worry of it going from one extreme to another, but... well, where has that actually been done? There are vague allusions to Abaddon's supremacy in the current Codex... which have always been there, anyway. That's pretty much the way it's always been. There's been a dataslate with very little information beyond some fantasy-style quests for magic artefacts. A supplement with some vague battles and a few more victories, but it's not exactly a treasure trove of new information or a significant shift in lore. And there's been a novel which about 2,000 people have read, wherein Abaddon does something he's always said to have done in the lore for X years, set even before the Black Legion exists. And in Pandorax, he... gets betrayed by Huron? Almost fails in his objectives? I've not read it, so I'm not sure, but there've been no rousing statements online about a tick on Abaddon's success record there. Quite the opposite. He's a brutish, uncharismatic barbarian in the Heresy series, which is his most detailed portrayal to date. Where's the extreme, here? Where's the immense competence to offset all the memes of failure?

 

See, this can be argued both ways.

 

It's not about making him suddenly awesome. There's no shift from one extreme to another. That's my point. There probably needs to be, as long as it's handled well, and I don't see how it could be handled better at this early stage, honestly. There should be a shift, if people are to take the character seriously, but some folks are taking the intent, and even the very first baby steps, done with actual subtlety and care, to be "going from one extreme to the other". We've always been told he's... well, what he is. Showing that, giving it context and detail and background, isn't a sin. It's explanation and clarification. Who will genuinely see it as going from one extreme to the other? To do that you'd need to misunderstand what he was in the first place, which is shaky ground to form an opinion on, and then to resent what he's supposed to be in the licence.

 

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?

 

 

I get what you're saying, and I completely agree with it at this stage. Believe me, I want Abaddon to be a cool composed character who gets things done because I feel that if -he- is a failure it will reflect on Chaos as a whole being a failure. Ergo why I was saying i'd be willing to wait and see.

 

Perhaps it's a completely false belief but in my head how I picture Abaddons Black Crusades is the same way as I picture Archaon leading the insurgencies from the Frozen Wastes in fantasy. The Norse don't just gobble up every faction for those to work, they put out a war call where the Hung and Kurgan answer because if they tried the invasion would fail before it started, the Black Legion won't just absorb every faction it comes across because some Warhosts are too big/too stubborn and it's be a gigantic waste of resources and may arguably destroy either them or what they were trying to acquire in the first place, Abaddon isn't stupid and wouldn't waste resources trying to paint chaos black...rather he'd calculate the risk vs reward, to me I think Abaddon as a character who...even if slighted by someone would work with them through clenched teeth just to achieve his ends. Luicus and Eidolen are still very much Emperors Children but when Abaddon comes calling they, like the warlords for other legions, snap to attention at the opportunity presented and help sow terror and misery throughout the Imperium, the Slave Wars are ancient history and he's not going to take them to task for something that happened 10,000 years ago.

 

In this way the Legions maintain their individuality but are still very much a part of the Long War.

[Bat33.1]

Many Chaos Marines may not care about their Legions, or have moved on to embrace specific aspects, philosophies, or whatever else within or without their Legion's ideals. But many (the majority, perhaps) are perfectly happy being Word Bearers or World Eaters, as discussed in that mega-post back here.

 

 

 

I kind of wonder if the Black Legion are really this happy multi-cultural chaos melange the GW seems to present.

Is the some resentment amongst the old SoH vets against all the Johnny come lately's thronging to join the crew? Are they treated like second class citizens?

 

It would be interesting if there was an 'old guard' type character who had a lot of political pull amongst the veterans and was outspoken but difficult to remove because his disappearance may fracture the legion.

 

If you have the time read A D-B's post in the quoted link above, but the short version - no it's certainly not all multi-cultural chaos happy time in any of the warbands/legions including the Black Legion, it's every cold hearted killer for themselves unless there is an advantage in working together at least in the present but chaos is never still so alliances and motivations will shift like sand.

[Kol Saresk]

I kind of wonder if the Black Legion are really this happy multi-cultural chaos melange the GW seems to present.

Is the some resentment amongst the old SoH vets against all the Johnny come lately's thronging to join the crew? Are they treated like second class citizens?

 

It would be interesting if there was an 'old guard' type character who had a lot of political pull amongst the veterans and was outspoken but difficult to remove because his disappearance may fracture the legion.

 

 

 

I kind of wonder if the Black Legion are really this happy multi-cultural chaos melange the GW seems to present.

Is the some resentment amongst the old SoH vets against all the Johnny come lately's thronging to join the crew? Are they treated like second class citizens?

 

It would be interesting if there was an 'old guard' type character who had a lot of political pull amongst the veterans and was outspoken but difficult to remove because his disappearance may fracture the legion.

 

Doubt it is multicultural. They appear to have a culture of their own.

 

 

 

Yep. If anything, they're a true example of the melting pot theory. Take a little bit of this, a little bit of that, throw it all in together and create something new.  That said, just as

Khayon recollects that he and Telemachon still tried to kill each other over the milennia

, I think it'd be a fool's errand to believe adapting to this new culture removes any prejudices from existing. Warlord X may still always hate Warlord B, but as long as Abaddon is in charge, only potshots shall be taken.

 

 

Well, going back to the Black Legion then I think it's also partially going from one extreme to the other that's jarring people. distancing from Failbaddon will be a somewhat long process, and there's the everpresent danger of going too far and becoming 'Abby Sue' hopefully there's a balancing out point that can be struck where Abaddon and the Black Legion can be fallible, but still be the, or at least one of, the major threats to the Imperium and taken seriously.

 

For a bit while they are expanded on perhaps it's best we sit back and let them try and find that balance before critiquing too heavily, if they go too far overboard hopefully it will be recognized and reeled in.

 

That's actually a significant factor, but not necessarily in the way you're suggesting. You could argue, and make a good case, that given Abaddon's position in the lore there's quite literally no way you can overstate his threat to the Imperium or his place as the license's Big Bad. But even ignoring that, you mention the worry of it going from one extreme to another, but... well, where has that actually been done? There are vague allusions to Abaddon's supremacy in the current Codex... which have always been there, anyway. That's pretty much the way it's always been. There's been a dataslate with very little information beyond some fantasy-style quests for magic artefacts. A supplement with some vague battles and a few more victories, but it's not exactly a treasure trove of new information or a significant shift in lore. And there's been a novel which about 2,000 people have read, wherein Abaddon does something he's always said to have done in the lore for X years, set even before the Black Legion exists. And in Pandorax, he... gets betrayed by Huron? Almost fails in his objectives? I've not read it, so I'm not sure, but there've been no rousing statements online about a tick on Abaddon's success record there. Quite the opposite. He's a brutish, uncharismatic barbarian in the Heresy series, which is his most detailed portrayal to date. Where's the extreme, here? Where's the immense competence to offset all the memes of failure?

 

See, this can be argued both ways.

 

It's not about making him suddenly awesome. There's no shift from one extreme to another. That's my point. There probably needs to be, as long as it's handled well, and I don't see how it could be handled better at this early stage, honestly. There should be a shift, if people are to take the character seriously, but some folks are taking the intent, and even the very first baby steps, done with actual subtlety and care, to be "going from one extreme to the other". We've always been told he's... well, what he is. Showing that, giving it context and detail and background, isn't a sin. It's explanation and clarification. Who will genuinely see it as going from one extreme to the other? To do that you'd need to misunderstand what he was in the first place, which is shaky ground to form an opinion on, and then to resent what he's supposed to be in the licence.

 

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?

 

 

I get what you're saying, and I completely agree with it at this stage. Believe me, I want Abaddon to be a cool composed character who gets things done because I feel that if -he- is a failure it will reflect on Chaos as a whole being a failure. Ergo why I was saying i'd be willing to wait and see.

 

Perhaps it's a completely false belief but in my head how I picture Abaddons Black Crusades is the same way as I picture Archaon leading the insurgencies from the Frozen Wastes in fantasy. The Norse don't just gobble up every faction for those to work, they put out a war call where the Hung and Kurgan answer because if they tried the invasion would fail before it started, the Black Legion won't just absorb every faction it comes across because some Warhosts are too big/too stubborn and it's be a gigantic waste of resources and may arguably destroy either them or what they were trying to acquire in the first place, Abaddon isn't stupid and wouldn't waste resources trying to paint chaos black...rather he'd calculate the risk vs reward, to me I think Abaddon as a character who...even if slighted by someone would work with them through clenched teeth just to achieve his ends. Luicus and Eidolen are still very much Emperors Children but when Abaddon comes calling they, like the warlords for other legions, snap to attention at the opportunity presented and help sow terror and misery throughout the Imperium, the Slave Wars are ancient history and he's not going to take them to task for something that happened 10,000 years ago.

 

In this way the Legions maintain their individuality but are still very much a part of the Long War.

 

Exactly, and that is how it works and how it seems Abaddon wants it to work. He wants everyone to work towards a common goal, but that doesn't mean he wants everyone to do it under the exact same banner. That's why so many of the Crusades are "The Black Legion and Everyone Else", not "The Black Legion".

[Loesh]

Indeed, but the reason I bring this up is because this is not how the fandom perceives them, in fact I think they see the Black Legion in the same way they see the Imperium. This tyrannical empire that's a threat to 'Your Dudes' and sapping individuality out of the Chaos Legions.

[oldschoolsavant]

Heh, brings back memories of an old explanation:

 

 

"The Astropath ?"

 

"He stands ready, Captain."

 

"Have him relay this message to all Imperial fleet vessels in our sector, with haste and urgency....

 

Battleship Glory of Bhanna, Regale Fleet, sighted Chaos fleet forming at ref: 235.65.179, Myritov Cluster, fleet comprises:

 

1 Battleship, Desecrator Class, 7 Heavy Cruisers, Styx and Hellfire, identified as Black Legion, 15 assorted escorts.

1 Grand Cruiser, Repulsive Class - Bloodied Barge, 3 Cruisers, Murder and Devestation, identified as World Eater remnants, 8 assorted escorts, identified as Raskil pirate group affiliates.

4 Cruisers, Slaughter and Carnage, 2 unknown, 2 identified as Death Guard remnants, 7 assorted escorts, believed to be host vessels of Pestulent Gallow warband, last sighted at Gered III.

 

We stop them here, now. All available forces to gather at ref: 236.65.190, full combat readiness, Emperor be praised." 

 

"Understood Captain, we will relay this at once."

 

The scribe shuffled hurriedly towards the sealed chamber of the Astropath, and engaged the communication protocols through his bio-link interface, slowly repeating each element of the dictated message, ensuring clarity and no errors through the translation. Satisfied that the relayed information was accurate and understood, the scribe allowed himself a relieved sigh, before terminating the bio-link, and hurriedly returning to the bridge.

 

Alone, silent, entombed, the Astropath began channelling his energy, focusing on purity of thought, reaching beyond the physical realm, and transmitting the sensitive information to those who would take heed......

 

"Chaos. Black Legion. 16 heavy. 30 escort. Myritov Cluster, ref 236.65.190. All available ships. For the Emperor."

 

Or as I liked to think: "Chaos. Tons. Like, too many. Need halp nao. Hereabouts. KTHXBYE." Why spend time designating and identifying when you can tar the lot with the same brush ?  :D

[Kol Saresk]

And therein lies exactly why "all of a sudden" there is an attempt to create depth to the Black Legion.

 

Go back to the "Failbaddon and his Thirteen Field Trips". How many of those "field trips" actually ended with Abaddon having to lick wounds? Three or four? The last being the Gothic War when he lost a Blackstone Fortress and the Planet Killer was severely damaged and he retreated so nothing else of value could be destroyed? Meanwhile, the rest except for the Thirteenth are Abaddon bursting out of the Eye, causing untold carnage and then....... heading back into the Eye? All of the older background actually points to the Crusades being something more than the occasional run at Terra. It's there. It's just that there are so many who are..... "rooted" in their perceptions that when it gets pointed out "It's a retcon" or "It's something new".

Like I came acroos a post on Warseer that was trying to tear apart A B-D because he said the Thirteenth tore open the Cadian Gates and they were trying to say that the results of the campaign disagreed with his interpretation. Now, everyone here who was in the campaign will be the first to say, Chaos won the campaign. Later on, GW would mitigate just how much of a success Chaos had, but it does not change the fact that the results of the campaign where in the favor of the Forces of Disorder.

Perception. Focus. Everyone focuses on what the Crusades didn't achieve and then attributes this imaginary failure to the actual outcome. And it has created this massive misunderstanding. So now that there is an attempt to go "You guys read it this way, but it was written that way", there seems to be this huge backlash against them, for whatever various reasons each person has. Some of them might be legitimate. Some of them might be legitimate concerns that are being fueled by seeing unfounded speculation resulting in an attitude that is fearful of what may come and then there are those that are just random lashings for whatever impulse drives the poster.

[Loesh]

Precisely, I sort of see the setting in a different lens then some people which is why I have my particular concerns.

 

With me, the concern isn't solely that Abaddon becomes too important. To me, the setting is just the background noise to my personal Warband, I love Lucius, I love Eidolen, I love Fabius, and I love Fulgrim but these guys aren't all that the Emperors Children are to me...they are templates, things that express what the legion are to me. The concern is that Abaddon becomes too much of a template for the Black Legion, which is to say instead of going from a Jack of All Trades they go to king of all trades, and I think this is what people...with good reason...fear as a possible future outcome.

 

It hasn't happened yet, I don't believe in comparing Abbadon to Calgar, but I can see how it'd go that way and it'd worry me because it would devalue my mono-legion/mono-god warband as the special skills ADB mentioned in his first post would no longer be worth as much.

[A D-B]

Precisely, I sort of see the setting in a different lens then some people which is why I have my particular concerns.

 

With me, the concern isn't solely that Abaddon becomes too important. To me, the setting is just the background noise to my personal Warband, I love Lucius, I love Eidolen, I love Fabius, and I love Fulgrim but these guys aren't all that the Emperors Children are to me...they are templates, things that express what the legion are to me. The concern is that Abaddon becomes too much of a template for the Black Legion, which is to say instead of going from a Jack of All Trades they go to king of all trades, and I think this is what people...with good reason...fear as a possible future outcome.

 

It hasn't happened yet, I don't believe in comparing Abbadon to Calgar, but I can see how it'd go that way and it'd worry me because it would devalue my mono-legion/mono-god warband as the special skills ADB mentioned in his first post would no longer be worth as much.

 

I don't think it'd go that way. I can't see why it would, in truth, or what good it would do. Genghis Khan was the best at the Khan job, but he didn't do everything better than everyone else. Alexander the Great was the ultimate Greek king in terms of unity and conquest, but that doesn't mean there was no room for Leonidas, Agisaleus, or Epaminondas, or Xenophon, et al, and other legendary generals, soldiers, and so on.

[Kol Saresk]

Gilgamesh. That sounds like a right and proper Emperor's Child.

[Loesh]

 

Precisely, I sort of see the setting in a different lens then some people which is why I have my particular concerns.

 

With me, the concern isn't solely that Abaddon becomes too important. To me, the setting is just the background noise to my personal Warband, I love Lucius, I love Eidolen, I love Fabius, and I love Fulgrim but these guys aren't all that the Emperors Children are to me...they are templates, things that express what the legion are to me. The concern is that Abaddon becomes too much of a template for the Black Legion, which is to say instead of going from a Jack of All Trades they go to king of all trades, and I think this is what people...with good reason...fear as a possible future outcome.

 

It hasn't happened yet, I don't believe in comparing Abbadon to Calgar, but I can see how it'd go that way and it'd worry me because it would devalue my mono-legion/mono-god warband as the special skills ADB mentioned in his first post would no longer be worth as much.

 

I don't think it'd go that way. I can't see why it would, in truth, or what good it would do. Genghis Khan was the best at the Khan job, but he didn't do everything better than everyone else. Alexander the Great was the ultimate Greek king in terms of unity and conquest, but that doesn't mean there was no room for Leonidas, Agisaleus, or Epaminondas, or Xenophon, et al, and other legendary generals, soldiers, and so on.

 

 

I think it hearkens back to the feeling that Games Workshop is this 'Evil Empire' that delights in mortal suffering and jacking up prices. Perhaps it's the lizard brain talking but there's that primordial fear, even in myself at times, that GW will go the way of mad king Aerys and just throw everything out with the sink in a fit of insanity. I do my best to suppress it, but even I feel that nagging sensation now and again. That's not to say that I think it's bad mind you, Games Workshop is made by humans, humans make mistakes, sometimes humans do things with no real good reason.

 

To people who don't try to suppress that feelings, or worse, embrace it, I can see how they might see the Black Legion fluff as the sky falling.

[Vesper]

@AD-B. Speaking of Fabius,

what happens to him at the end of The Talon of Horus ? Has he been captured or did he fled during you know what ?

 

[Loesh]

Further expanding a bit, I think I like the Genghis Khan analogy when it comes to Abaddon. The Mongolian's were vicious and brutal people but within their own sphere of influence they allowed freedom of religion and the freedom to govern how one feels best(With some Mongolian Overseers.) so long as they went along with the hordes ideas. The purpose being two fold: Doing so meant a cultural expansion in the empire with a broader range of skills, and that they realized as they expanded they relied on a happy empire to get anything done, Tran Hung Dao proved during Kubla Khans lead that one really disgruntled man and two hundred thousand peasants can inflict some massive casualties on a much larger and better trained force if they are pissed off enough.

 

So I suppose that very much goes with my feeling that Abaddon leads, but everyone else still has a right to do what they want to do within reason, and further that to extent restricting them from being what they are would limit Chaos as a fighting force.

[the jeske]

I admit I am at loss. What fluff justification is there for the Black Ultramarines and the Ezekyle Calgar stuff? I don't mean this as an attack, I am actually tryin to understand the point of view but everyone who has it seems rather reluctant to reveal how this view came about. So in an effort to gain knowledge, would someone explain to me how this belief came about and what fluff supports it?

 

4th ed gav codex, when the only way to play for a whole edition was to play with a BL force. Everyone either played BL or had a suck army. 6th didn't help with it much and while the BL in deed sucked[ruleswise], we are all still playing BL lists. Add to that the fact that the biggest legion is BL[no problem with that before 6th ed codex] and the second biggest chaos force is a newb one and you kind of a get the spiritual liege thing[which by the way was never a problem for chaos, following abadon made sense] , only without the chaos version of IH/WS/SAlamanders/SW/ rules to go along with it. People don't mind stupid[or one they don't like] fluff as much as they mind stupid rules or total lack of them.

 

 

And therein lies exactly why "all of a sudden" there is an attempt to create depth to the Black Legion.

 

 

Well this is a fluff thing , but be a realist why do you think that flashing out the BL[who had at least in the game had the most focus on them since 3.5] is going to make lets say an AL happy. Anything writen about BL lowers the chance of stuff being writen about AL, and the "chaos pie" isn't that big to begin with. Add to it the whole lets make 1 thing in to 3 things and suddenly you could be waiting years for your stuff and your already waiting years for rules . By the way nothing wrong with that and even I can agree that 3 books give more space for characterisation then 1. at least technicly.