When did this start?

[Bat33.1]

Using a current reference I see black legion crusades as the 40k version of al Qaeda, more a state of mind and ideals than a cohesive organisation. With splinter groups popping up here and there, with their own version of the truth and ideas for tactical advantage but with the same 'big idea' motivating them. In our case a chaos victory, but no definition of what victory would really look like.

[Loesh]

 

I admit I am at loss. What fluff justification is there for the Black Ultramarines and the Ezekyle Calgar stuff? I don't mean this as an attack, I am actually tryin to understand the point of view but everyone who has it seems rather reluctant to reveal how this view came about. So in an effort to gain knowledge, would someone explain to me how this belief came about and what fluff supports it?

 

4th ed gav codex, when the only way to play for a whole edition was to play with a BL force. Everyone either played BL or had a suck army. 6th didn't help with it much and while the BL in deed sucked[ruleswise], we are all still playing BL lists. Add to that the fact that the biggest legion is BL[no problem with that before 6th ed codex] and the second biggest chaos force is a newb one and you kind of a get the spiritual liege thing[which by the way was never a problem for chaos, following abadon made sense] , only without the chaos version of IH/WS/SAlamanders/SW/ rules to go along with it. People don't mind stupid[or one they don't like] fluff as much as they mind stupid rules or total lack of them.

 

 

And therein lies exactly why "all of a sudden" there is an attempt to create depth to the Black Legion.

 

 

Well this is a fluff thing , but be a realist why do you think that flashing out the BL[who had at least in the game had the most focus on them since 3.5] is going to make lets say an AL happy. Anything writen about BL lowers the chance of stuff being writen about AL, and the "chaos pie" isn't that big to begin with. Add to it the whole lets make 1 thing in to 3 things and suddenly you could be waiting years for your stuff and your already waiting years for rules . By the way nothing wrong with that and even I can agree that 3 books give more space for characterisation then 1. at least technicly.

 

 

*Raises hand* I would mind stupid fluff way more then I would mind stupid rules, and i'd certainly be more then a tad ticked at having Abaddon be my 'Spiritual Liege'.

 

But I suppose that's just me.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

[Loesh]

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

 

Quite so, my introduction into Warhammer was nothing -but- fluff, I don't yet have models(Though I hope to when I have expendable income.) and was limited to Video Games and Novels.

 

Believe it or not, there are a ton of people like me who are interested in the hobby but can't yet afford it, so we dig into the fluff and video games in the meantime. We eat up lore until we know more then most 'Neckbeards' in the hobby store because the setting is just so big and expansive that it practically takes a life of it's own.

[totgeboren]

From my own perspective, my opinion along those lines came about from the utter blandness that was peddled by GW regarding them both. All we heard about the smurfs was "they are so the bestest ever, I mean they were the only ones left after the heresy right! That MUST mean nobody could beat them!". Up until the 5th ed book, they were utterly spanked by the nids, everything they knew was completely ineffective and they got punished for it, then along comes the whole "Calgar won a great victory because of his genius bla bla bla. Whilst Gav and Alessio threaded throughout the 4th ed chaos book the whole "Abaddon does this, Abaddon does that, he got plague marines and noise marines and bezerkers and rubric marines and all this cool stuff" making it out to be some sort of divine destiny that he will inevitably own it all because he's the heir of Horus, nothing was said HOW he managed it. Of course now it's out there that Abaddon got his power by wandering the Eye of Terror for centuries, that his closest brothers command Rubric marines and noise marines and Berserkers and he's swinging around the most potent daemon sword in the material galaxy. 

 

Bottom line, I'm more inclined to take BL material over codex fluff as a proper version for depth reasons if nothing else

 

 I think you are on to something here, the problem with the UM that makes people dislike them is that their trademark thing is that they go by the book, yet they are presented as being the most flexible legion/chapter. You never get told how they can be so superior, just that they are better than everyone else, based on a sort of bully logic. If someone else is worse off than me that means I'm better than them. The ultras were made good by simply defining them as, 'like the others, but better'.

 

The Black Legion have historically suffered the same fate. They are like the other legions, only better and have access to the best toys of everyone else without any drawbacks. Their presentation came across a bit like Carman in Good Times with Weapons.

 

I haven't read the new stuff (and ADB usually delivers so I really need to get myself a copy), but the historical presentation of both the UM and BL is strange since even children know that playing with someone who acts like Cartman is no fun.

[Loesh]

Right, though I can see what ADB is saying, and now i'm unsure if they get the best stuff...in fluff, has the Black Legion ever fielded Sonic Dreadnaughts and Terminators? Would they even know the Occult rites to make a Lament of the Damned if they did or any other Slaaneshi rituals obscure like that? They certainly can't boast Slaaneshi champions as transformed as Eidolen or Lucius, save Devram Korda and the very fact that a Emperors Children Warband knocked him off his horse casts doubt on even that.

 

To some extent the Chaos Warbands mix due to the very nature of living in the Eye of Terror, now that I think about it even though I want a Mono-Emperors Children Warband the leader I have made for it, Sigvald, is heavily influenced by Word Bearers in his background. A little bit of mixing isn't bad, it allows artistic freedom of choice.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

Quite so, my introduction into Warhammer was nothing -but- fluff, I don't yet have models(Though I hope to when I have expendable income.) and was limited to Video Games and Novels.

 

Believe it or not, there are a ton of people like me who are interested in the hobby but can't yet afford it, so we dig into the fluff and video games in the meantime. We eat up lore until we know more then most 'Neckbeards' in the hobby store because the setting is just so big and expansive that it practically takes a life of it's own.

You're talking to one of those people. ;)

[Loesh]

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

Quite so, my introduction into Warhammer was nothing -but- fluff, I don't yet have models(Though I hope to when I have expendable income.) and was limited to Video Games and Novels.

Believe it or not, there are a ton of people like me who are interested in the hobby but can't yet afford it, so we dig into the fluff and video games in the meantime. We eat up lore until we know more then most 'Neckbeards' in the hobby store because the setting is just so big and expansive that it practically takes a life of it's own.

You're talking to one of those people.

Heh, good to know.

I think a large component is just interpretation really, because part of the fun of Warhammer lore is that very few things are solid and concrete, and often two people will look at the same piece of lore and get something completely different out of it, the reason for more arguments about Abbadon now may be just because there's now a ton of new lore to comb through.

To use someone as not Abaddon for an example, how people perceive Fabius Bile: his quote about offering more to the slaves of chaos then they have to him is pretty famous, some people see him as unfettered now..a guy who is no longer bound to the whims of the Chaos Gods or it's rules, others see him as merely delusional and so far beyond corrupted that he can't see he's a meat puppet for his dark masters. As an Emperors Children fan I look at him somewhat differently, I don't begrudge him for leaving the legion and I tend to take the stance that Fabius, if he realizes it or not, in his pursuit of perfection in the human body and the geneseed is playing more to Slaanesh then he either realizes or cares to admit, it seems to me despite their falling out he hasn't particularly distanced himself from the Emperors Children as Lucius drug pack was in fact a gift from Bile...no doubt the ECs bought from him more then once too in the Eye of Terror.

Is that a popular view? Probably not, but that's how I see the character and I can point to things in fluff I think support this. So far, as ADBs pointed out, Abaddons only had lore to support him as a failure, but now there's all this new stuff saying the exact opposite, so which does the fandom by? Probably somewhere inbetween, and there's going to be a lot of arguing and bickering as people try to form their own opinions.

[Emperors Immortals]

Just putting it out there, but there are still plenty of people who love the concept of genetically enhanced post human super soldiers more then the idea of there own faction being best, want good rules more then excellant fluff AND still think the whole HH/BL fad isnt going to catch on or change the setting much.

 

I am one of those dinosaurs, and the concept that Neckbeards even exist in GW is pretty mind blowing. Ive just discovered the youtube clips and podcasts, oooh boy. I am going to read the HH series now, I think its almost mandatory now.

 

Abaddon in my cirlces has always been seen as preparing for the end times, not having been beaten back every time. He's never been more then the ultimate player, balancing rivals against each other and promising the Gods a huge payoff if he survives to deliver it. The BlackLegion IMO is a bit like a biker club patching over local branches - they still have all there own badassery and customs but gain the protection of a bigger organisation and the chance to get even bigger.

 

BTW ive been an EC fan since teh beginning and have only just started reading up on there lore - looks like ill need to start reading!

[Loesh]

Just putting it out there, but there are still plenty of people who love the concept of genetically enhanced post human super soldiers more then the idea of there own faction being best, want good rules more then excellant fluff AND still think the whole HH/BL fad isnt going to catch on or change the setting much.

 

I am one of those dinosaurs, and the concept that Neckbeards even exist in GW is pretty mind blowing. Ive just discovered the youtube clips and podcasts, oooh boy. I am going to read the HH series now, I think its almost mandatory now.

 

Abaddon in my cirlces has always been seen as preparing for the end times, not having been beaten back every time. He's never been more then the ultimate player, balancing rivals against each other and promising the Gods a huge payoff if he survives to deliver it. The BlackLegion IMO is a bit like a biker club patching over local branches - they still have all there own badassery and customs but gain the protection of a bigger organisation and the chance to get even bigger.

 

BTW ive been an EC fan since teh beginning and have only just started reading up on there lore - looks like ill need to start reading!

 

I didn't mean to imply there weren't, just to say i'm a guy who cares more about fluff. While I don't have such a high opinion of Abaddon, I disagree strongly with some of those neckbeards about the Failbaddon memes.

 

The 1d4chan article they have on him reminds me of a tune by Slipknot, I believe it goes something like this: "I push my fingers into my eyes, it slowly dulls the pain"

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

Quite so, my introduction into Warhammer was nothing -but- fluff, I don't yet have models(Though I hope to when I have expendable income.) and was limited to Video Games and Novels.

Believe it or not, there are a ton of people like me who are interested in the hobby but can't yet afford it, so we dig into the fluff and video games in the meantime. We eat up lore until we know more then most 'Neckbeards' in the hobby store because the setting is just so big and expansive that it practically takes a life of it's own.

You're talking to one of those people.

Heh, good to know.

I think a large component is just interpretation really, because part of the fun of Warhammer lore is that very few things are solid and concrete, and often two people will look at the same piece of lore and get something completely different out of it, the reason for more arguments about Abbadon now may be just because there's now a ton of new lore to comb through.

To use someone as not Abaddon for an example, how people perceive Fabius Bile: his quote about offering more to the slaves of chaos then they have to him is pretty famous, some people see him as unfettered now..a guy who is no longer bound to the whims of the Chaos Gods or it's rules, others see him as merely delusional and so far beyond corrupted that he can't see he's a meat puppet for his dark masters. As an Emperors Children fan I look at him somewhat differently, I don't begrudge him for leaving the legion and I tend to take the stance that Fabius, if he realizes it or not, in his pursuit of perfection in the human body and the geneseed is playing more to Slaanesh then he either realizes or cares to admit, it seems to me despite their falling out he hasn't particularly distanced himself from the Emperors Children as Lucius drug pack was in fact a gift from Bile...no doubt the ECs bought from him more then once too in the Eye of Terror.

Is that a popular view? Probably not, but that's how I see the character and I can point to things in fluff I think support this. So far, as ADBs pointed out, Abaddons only had lore to support him as a failure, but now there's all this new stuff saying the exact opposite, so which does the fandom by? Probably somewhere inbetween, and there's going to be a lot of arguing and bickering as people try to form their own opinions.

Now I get it.

You haven't been around for the olden days of multi-page arguments over the validity of the a battle company's organization or what age a boy can become a neophyte.

Well, really, when it comes to which version of a character the fandom buys into, it doesn't matter. We used to think it mattered, but in the past 7-8 years it's rapidly becoming apparent, and a generally accepted norm, that our personal opinions don't change the underlying fact that each character's history and value is relative only to the beholder. If you like a more expanded Abaddon, then your interpretation of him lines up with what he is 'supposed' to be, even if poorly represented in the studio books. If you prefer failbaddon, then that's fine too, and you don't have to believe the studio (keep buying the books though, they promise it'll be better next time ;) )

'Your personal perceptions of the characters and settings don't matter at all, but you are not wrong to have them' is how the universe works. There are no right or wrong perceptions.

[Loesh]

Well yeah, that's what I thought I said. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

It's a personally disappointing revelation, but it does allow the flexibility to create your own background for your armies.

 

You can have a warband of pure EC for example who consider themselves the last scions of their legion who only take former III legionaries, and no one can tell you that you are wrong.

[Balthamal]

@ totgeboren

 

That encapsulates my point entirely. I don't have a problem with the Ultramarines being the "best" Chapter. What I do have a problem with is being told to take it on faith and the sworn word of GW because they have to keep up the appearance of their poster boys. If were we given something solid - a heroic last stand, a tactically brilliant surprise attack, grit and determination in the face of overwhelming firepower, SOMETHING beyond the drab "They went here, killed those, got em some glory. Onwards"

 

This is the kind of thing that actually excites me the most about the BL series. Now there's a counterpoint to the stuff that's been force fed to a lot of people over the last 10 years or so. No more of the 4th ed dex "Abaddon has beserker surgeons, Abaddon has got plague marines eating out of his hand, Abaddon has an army of rubric marines" There's FINALLY some context behind it all. 

 

The other thing I'm reassured about is the degrees of success and failure. I think it incredibly telling that Khayon notes that "The Black Legion were born, at a cost I could never forgvie" None of this Mary Sue overload, victory has it's price. If this is extended to Abaddon himself then it's even better. It's been mooted on this forum and within the book itself that he kills a fairly renowned Imperial hero, if this was in a codex it would be something like "it was hard but he got there in the end" whereas in a novel there'd be something concrete to show that it quite probably almost killed him and it would take him considerable time to recover but he had won. I accept it's a tad unfair to compare a codex summary with a novel (for space to explore it if nothing else) but given there's been 6 proper codices, a dedicated supplement and an event codex dedicated to the faction you'd think someone somewhere would have grabbed the bull by the horns before now

 

Maybe if someone gets to grips with Marneus the whole OTT bubble will finally be popped although given the retcon handed down to the Battle of Maccrage I don't have high hopes

[A D-B]

Is that a popular view? Probably not, but that's how I see the character and I can point to things in fluff I think support this. So far, as ADBs pointed out, Abaddons only had lore to support him as a failure, but now there's all this new stuff saying the exact opposite...

 

 

That's kind of the point, though. There isn't "all this new stuff saying the exact opposite". There's practically nothing yet, and very little has changed from the old lore. That's the beginning and end of the point. You're reacting with doubt and paranoia to things that haven't happened. Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier, but I'm pretty certain this quote explains why your angle doesn't hold water:

 

"You could argue, and make a good case, that given Abaddon's position in the lore there's quite literally no way you can overstate his threat to the Imperium or his place as the license's Big Bad. But even ignoring that, you mention the worry of it going from one extreme to another, but... well, where has that actually been done? There are vague allusions to Abaddon's supremacy in the current Codex... which have always been there, anyway. That's pretty much the way it's always been. There's been a dataslate with very little information beyond some fantasy-style quests for magic artefacts. A supplement with some vague battles and a few more victories, but it's not exactly a treasure trove of new information or a significant shift in lore. And there's been a novel which about 2,000 people have read, wherein Abaddon does something he's always said to have done in the lore for X years, set even before the Black Legion exists. And in Pandorax, he... gets betrayed by Huron? Almost fails in his objectives? I've not read it, so I'm not sure, but there've been no rousing statements online about a tick on Abaddon's success record there. Quite the opposite. He's a brutish, uncharismatic barbarian in the Heresy series, which is his most detailed portrayal to date. Where's the extreme, here? Where's the immense competence to offset all the memes of failure?

 

See, this can be argued both ways.

 

It's not about making him suddenly awesome. There's no shift from one extreme to another. That's my point. There probably needs to be, as long as it's handled well, and I don't see how it could be handled better at this early stage, honestly. There should be a shift, if people are to take the character seriously, but some folks are taking the intent, and even the very first baby steps, done with actual subtlety and care, to be "going from one extreme to the other". We've always been told he's... well, what he is. Showing that, giving it context and detail and background, isn't a sin. It's explanation and clarification. Who will genuinely see it as going from one extreme to the other? To do that you'd need to misunderstand what he was in the first place, which is shaky ground to form an opinion on, and then to resent what he's supposed to be in the licence.

 

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?"

 

 

That's the thing. These are all recent protrayals. None of them show this new tide of retconning support for Abaddon. They barely say anything different at all that wasn't in the lore already, and plenty of them reinforce the negative memes. What, exactly, are you objecting to? The possibility? On what evidence?

[Vesper]

B...But and my question on Bile ?

[A D-B]

I haven't read the new stuff (and ADB usually delivers so I really need to get myself a copy), but the historical presentation of both the UM and BL is strange since even children know that playing with someone who acts like Cartman is no fun.

I like that angle a lot, Tote. I think it's core to the point. The Cartman analogy is when something like this is handled poorly in fiction. No argument there. The flip side of the coin is that it's not the situation itself that sucks, it's the handling of it in various books, movies, games, etc. etc. And I know I'm just agreeing with you, but it's worth illustrating a little.

The situation itself can be awesome. Take, say, the Spartans of (insert generic "Ancient World time period for convenience). They were ostensibly "the best" in terms of getting down and dirty in the phalanx, and had the best training, the best culture to foster a warrior society that barely thought twice about spending their lives fighting and dying, and the best reputation for being That City You Didn't Want To Screw With. In addition to that, they were often credited as having the most beautiful women in some legends/histories, and on and on it goes. I'm paraphrasing massively, but bear with me.

They still struggled. They had issues with their slave/thrall/servant caste, on the edge of dissatisfaction at best and rebellion at worst. They had diplomatic issues with the other city-states. They had their own oracles arguing against wars the king wanted to fight. They were soundly beaten by Epaminondas at the Battle of Leuctra. They were famously xenophobic. They refused to fight in some wars, and should probably have held back from others. They had significant population issues over time.

And on and on that goes, too.

"The Black Legion" is a concept that stretches over an eternity of time inside Hell itself. It's not as simple as them being the best and That's The End. There's a rise. A fall. More rises. More falls. Things go wrong. Things go right. More things go wrong. Internal treacheries. External conflicts. Betrayals and ambushes and battles and wars that weaken and distract and infuriate. Wars that, frankly, just go badly. The Imperium is dying a slow death, but it kicks butt when it gets its jazz together.

"Dominance" is only clear-cut in pretty simple fiction. Yes, Abaddon may be the Gods' chosen champion, and yes, the Black Legion can bring to bear more Chaos Marines, daemons, daemon engines, cultists, warships, tanks, and Whatever Else than anyone can even dream of. But they're also scattered as warbands across the infinite reaches of Hell, with their own warlords dealing with their own agendas a lot of the time. The Black Legion, because of its size and scale, can indeed lay claim to "the most stuff" with a straight face, but they also have to overcome the most difficulty, and suffer the most setbacks.

Abaddon's authority isn't inviolate. He's not omniscient and omnipresent. His throne can be threatened, and he could lose his crown. The fact he hasn't speaks volumes as to his competence and genius, but it's not as clear cut as "He's the best, so that's that". People betray warlords. People challenge kings. People rise up and try to overthrow dictators. Even taking it to its most bleeding edge, noting that he can't be killed by mortal weapons because of the Gods' influence... that means what, exactly? What if he lost the Gods' influence at some point? Or spurned it? And ignoring him - what about shattering his power base? One unkillable man means nothing if he lacks the resources he needs to set him above the rest. And the Gods would hardly endorse him if he lost the Black Legion. That might, that power, is why he's so valuable to them. They don't just want Abaddon as a weapon. Abaddon is a means to an end. They want what he's built. They want what he can do for them.

Also, as an aside, in Khayon's epilogue in The Talon of Horus, amidst the mentions of the coming victories he does mention more than one incident that almost tears the Black Legion apart, or ends it completely. And that's just vague allusions in the very first novel. It's not going to be smooth sailing to the promised land.

B...But and my question on Bile ?

He went to a ceremony in a big hall, got a medal, and Chewbacca roared really loud.

[Kol Saresk]

A D-B, I like your smartassery.

[the jeske]

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

yet the GK codex with super stupid fluff was selling like hot cakes, while the fluffy one sold bad .

 

Chaos under 3.5 was uber seller, second after loyalist marines, what happened when the codex change. Newb comes and heres he can take this units and it iz good, those transport and those units and it iz good . he be happy. Anothe one gets the 2xDP 3x5pm 6-9 oblits or use SW codex and he becomes sad, before he even bought the codex and started reading anything.

 

 

 

That might, that power, is why he's so valuable to them. They don't just want Abaddon as a weapon. Abaddon is a means to an end. They want what he's built. They want what he can do for them.

 

But if he has no control over the BL , then he hasn't build anything and can't give the gods anything. No structure and no control means the gods can't be sure, if the stuff that is BL will do what they want.

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon has the same amount of control over the black legion any authoritarian has. He must use a portion of his might to secure enough of the elite to incentivize securing their interests by supporting him. If they support him, he can direct his energy to external goals, that in turn reward the elites investment.

[A D-B]

 

Yeah, fluff was my intro to the background so it definitely holds more value than the rules.

yet the GK codex with super stupid fluff was selling like hot cakes, while the fluffy one sold bad .

 

Chaos under 3.5 was uber seller, second after loyalist marines, what happened when the codex change. Newb comes and heres he can take this units and it iz good, those transport and those units and it iz good . he be happy. Anothe one gets the 2xDP 3x5pm 6-9 oblits or use SW codex and he becomes sad, before he even bought the codex and started reading anything.

 

 

 

That might, that power, is why he's so valuable to them. They don't just want Abaddon as a weapon. Abaddon is a means to an end. They want what he's built. They want what he can do for them.

 

But if he has no control over the BL , then he hasn't build anything and can't give the gods anything. No structure and no control means the gods can't be sure, if the stuff that is BL will do what they want.

 

 

He has immense and unrivalled (in terms of Chaos warlords)  control over them. There's a difference between "no control" and "he's not inviolate and omniscient". 

 

Shades of grey, dude. Just this once. Please. It's like you're trying to not get it.

[Bryan Blaire]

I've struggled since I started seeing the "Failbaddon" memes and concepts with understanding them, because they don't make any sense to me. They are a purposeful fabrication, IMO, a seemingly deliberate misunderstanding of the ideas presented. It would also require an extremely narrow viewpoint where each and every Black Crusade throughout the millennia was exactly the same each and every time.

 

The fact that Abaddon has been able to cause so much havoc in 13 different crusades, in different times, with different builds of troops, commanders, subordinates and the like up against changing and shifting Imperial defenses, likely ever increasing build ups of Cadia and the Cadian Gate, and all the other obstacles he's faced, and even if he never succeeded in accomplishing any of his priorities (which I sincerely doubt, while he made have had one ultimate priority, almost no one operates with just a single thing they want to do), he's managed to constantly perservere and come back from each "defeat." That doesn't mean he has failed 13 times, it means he has found 13 ways that don't get him everything he wants (and completely ignores the fact that maybe he had some other things he did accomplish in each of these Crusades). That doesn't make him a failure, it makes him a leader with a constant need to succeed so bad he's willing to force his way on to his next attempt. It also doesn't make him crazy unless you ascribe to the idea that each Black Crusade was exactly identical (in which case he's simply someone that likes doing the same thing repeatedly expecting different results - but we aren't really given that impression).

 

He'd have only been "Failbaddon" if he had tried once, not succeeded, and then walked away with his coalitions falling apart behind him and all his men abandoning him. That is what failure looks like, abject giving up and being unable to lead any more.

 

That isn't Abaddon.

 

Showing him as the amazing leader he would have to be to perservere through all of this and keep going, keep his alliances from falling apart, being constantly able to provide a reason for Chaos to follow him, doesn't automatically mean that he's somehow a Calgar analog or that the Black Legion is the "black Ultramarines", and that he's an amazing leader doesn't mean that all of the sudden, everyone wants to join up. Even when you have an amazingly powerful vision to follow and a leader that can embody it, you will still have many that "like the cause" that simply will not join because they have a different path they want to take.

[Loesh]

Is that a popular view? Probably not, but that's how I see the character and I can point to things in fluff I think support this. So far, as ADBs pointed out, Abaddons only had lore to support him as a failure, but now there's all this new stuff saying the exact opposite...

That's kind of the point, though. There isn't "all this new stuff saying the exact opposite". There's practically nothing yet, and very little has changed from the old lore. That's the beginning and end of the point. You're reacting with doubt and paranoia to things that haven't happened. Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier, but I'm pretty certain this quote explains why your angle doesn't hold water:

"You could argue, and make a good case, that given Abaddon's position in the lore there's quite literally no way you can overstate his threat to the Imperium or his place as the license's Big Bad. But even ignoring that, you mention the worry of it going from one extreme to another, but... well, where has that actually been done? There are vague allusions to Abaddon's supremacy in the current Codex... which have always been there, anyway. That's pretty much the way it's always been. There's been a dataslate with very little information beyond some fantasy-style quests for magic artefacts. A supplement with some vague battles and a few more victories, but it's not exactly a treasure trove of new information or a significant shift in lore. And there's been a novel which about 2,000 people have read, wherein Abaddon does something he's always said to have done in the lore for X years, set even before the Black Legion exists. And in Pandorax, he... gets betrayed by Huron? Almost fails in his objectives? I've not read it, so I'm not sure, but there've been no rousing statements online about a tick on Abaddon's success record there. Quite the opposite. He's a brutish, uncharismatic barbarian in the Heresy series, which is his most detailed portrayal to date. Where's the extreme, here? Where's the immense competence to offset all the memes of failure?

See, this can be argued both ways.

It's not about making him suddenly awesome. There's no shift from one extreme to another. That's my point. There probably needs to be, as long as it's handled well, and I don't see how it could be handled better at this early stage, honestly. There should be a shift, if people are to take the character seriously, but some folks are taking the intent, and even the very first baby steps, done with actual subtlety and care, to be "going from one extreme to the other". We've always been told he's... well, what he is. Showing that, giving it context and detail and background, isn't a sin. It's explanation and clarification. Who will genuinely see it as going from one extreme to the other? To do that you'd need to misunderstand what he was in the first place, which is shaky ground to form an opinion on, and then to resent what he's supposed to be in the licence.

What's the answer, here? If literally any and all changes are taken as from one extreme to another, what's the way forward?"

That's the thing. These are all recent protrayals. None of them show this new tide of retconning support for Abaddon. They barely say anything different at all that wasn't in the lore already, and plenty of them reinforce the negative memes. What, exactly, are you objecting to? The possibility? On what evidence?

That's why I more or less rescinded my point a couple posts back perhaps the proper thing to say was they now show things that say/reinforce the opposite, rather then a lot of things that say the exact opposite.

At this point i'm just back and forthing with people on what they think of the character.

[Emperors Immortals]

One thing I've come to realize through this thread is Abaddon managed to find 13 different builds with the chaos book, a truly great acievment.

 

I'm kidding I love these threads, they expand the game and keep it fresh like chaos should. The only thing better would be if A D-B said something to me, guess I need something worth commenting on first though hmmmm......... *thinking*....

[Loesh]

One thing I've come to realize through this thread is Abaddon managed to find 13 different builds with the chaos book, a truly great acievment.

 

I'm kidding I love these threads, they expand the game and keep it fresh like chaos should. The only thing better would be if A D-B said something to me, guess I need something worth commenting on first though hmmmm......... *thinking*....

 

Fling inane hyperbole and personal insults.

 

That will surely get a response.