When did this start?

[Uprising]

 

I am more than happy to qualify that as the 'current' studio team. Hardly anyone is left from when the setting was created or it's golden age in 3rd.

 

Yes 3rd did have some nice fluff/flavor for the game but also had some terrible fluff as well, like ever other edition.  I am enjoying some of the addition fluff that is currently being release, espically from a chaos point of view.  We have grow a lot in 6th/7th from a fluff point of view, and enjoying the variety.   You are entitle to your opinion, but do not start to enforce it on others.  While you see third as a golden era, I see it as a dull bronze.  We all like different things, and the studio proves us fluff(good and bad, base off of likes/dislikes).  If you dislike something, then go back to your sub-forums, chaos is now a community of creation and freedom, not bitterness anymore. 

 

Now lets get back on topic. 

[Tenebris]

 

 If you dislike something, then go back to your sub-forums, chaos is now a community of creation and freedom, not bitterness anymore. 

 

 

You brought a tear to my daemonic eye. Well said Uprising. I see that the change of mood on this board did not escape to be noticed by the frater. We can only be better, never worse, never self-loathing again. We are returned!

 

 

I stand to say that despite many shortcomings the 7th is a very good edition, especially for Chaos. We can field legit armies which can come in countless forms. Hell we can even make proper cult armies, not just a frothing tide of berzerkers, but also raptor cult, obliterator cult and so on. Only the sky is limit, and the sky is a "subjective" term in the Empire of the Eye.

 

But back on topic. Th "evolution" of the Black Legion.

 

I think that at long last the "main" chaos space marine faction is getting some love. Its role is the exact same as the Swords of Chaos led by Archaon in WFB, it is the faction for all factions and at its head there is the archvillain of the universe, of the setting. I understand that some feel "threatened" by this ascension but as all true fans of Chaos we know that it was long overdue. The rise of the Black Legion is far from an event that would spell the doom of the particular character and idiosyncrasies of the other traitor legions, in fact it will only promote it further. 

 

Every fan of Chaos knows that Abaddon and his Black Legion cannot smash the Cadian Gate and conquer Terra alone. Theirs is but the banner that files higher but behind it countless colors, countless banners fly high. Consider the Black Legion the medium trough which a lot of lore will be expanded and explored. They indeed deserve the spotlight, we need to make the Black Legion believable in order to make the other traitor legions believable. When the archvillain of your faction is diminished, all the other efforts, the efforts of the other legions, are also diminished. But behind Abaddon's back we will at long last have the perfect medium trough which install the countless relations of our warbands, present our loyalties and treacheries. How does our warband relate to this black king, do they follow his lead or are antagonistic to his claims of dominion... and so on.

 

I ask the people to not observe the Black Legion as the most powerful of the traitor legions, but observe it as the plot device, as the main feature of our faction around which everything about our personal warband will come to focus. The Black Legion is for our faction the compass, it is what makes Chaos dangerous, but it is not what makes Chaos unique. What makes Chaos unique are the other traitor legions, they are the spice and the flavor in our faction, they are the actual thing that matters about Chaos Space Marines. The Black Legion is the speartip of Chaos, the traitor legions are the shaft and the hand that wields it behind this spear tip of black and brass. 

 

It is all to easy to be mired into objective statements like "Black Legion is too good" or "my legion sucks" but in truth every "proper" fan of Chaos Space Marines would know that this is far, far from the truth. The Black Legion is in M41 the "public face of the Chaos Space Marines faction" but it is far far from the "true" face of Chaos or the "only" face. 

 

 

But never forget the following. Without the traitor legions there would not be a Black Legion. The traitor legions with their war unending shattered the Sons of Horus, and it is the traitor legions that forced the hand of Abaddon. Not his legion, the other legions. Also without the "patronage" of the other traitor legions the Black Legion would never come to pass for I presume that there are far more other traitor legionnaires wearing the black then there are Sons of Horus. 

[Loesh]

That's more or less how I came to terms with it. I stopped seeing the Black Legion as the Black Legion, but rather the Death Guard, Emperors Children, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons combined. The other legions are involved of course but the big the stickler for me is that the Black Legion is Chaos United(As opposed to Chaos Undivided.) and that those legions were actively helping in pushing on the Imperium, Lucius and Eidolen were in the 13ths Vanguard after all and they certainly weren't Black Legion, but it didn't stop them from being the first to hit the ground running.

[incinerator950]

 

 

Snip

It's okay, someone already snapped in the thread!

 

I can see the correlation - but I feel that both sides have strong enough core chapters that it doesn't become an overriding concern. I honestly don't even see that many Ultramarines armies as is - let alone the rarer Black Legion beast!

No, I decided to withdraw my statement that comparing 6th as a sandbox and moving in the right direction is like saying Resident Evil 5/6 and Dead Space 3 are good examples of the direction their respective developers are taking.

 

IE, sarcasm.

 

Uprising: Hah.

[Kol Saresk]

If we looked at Chaos as an army, the Black Legion is just the vanguard regiment. Each piece of the Army has its own history and traditions, but they all still belong to the same, overall Army. In this case, that is Chaos.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I am more than happy to qualify that as the 'current' studio team. Hardly anyone is left from when the setting was created or it's golden age in 3rd.

 

Yes 3rd did have some nice fluff/flavor for the game but also had some terrible fluff as well, like ever other edition.  I am enjoying some of the addition fluff that is currently being release, espically from a chaos point of view.  We have grow a lot in 6th/7th from a fluff point of view, and enjoying the variety.   You are entitle to your opinion, but do not start to enforce it on others.  While you see third as a golden era, I see it as a dull bronze.  We all like different things, and the studio proves us fluff(good and bad, base off of likes/dislikes).  If you dislike something, then go back to your sub-forums, chaos is now a community of creation and freedom, not bitterness anymore. 

 

Now lets get back on topic.

As I've said repeatedly, here and elsewhere, people are free to like what they want. You however, don't get to decide where I post and what discussions I partake in, so you may want to reread the forum rules before commanding anyone around.

[Loesh]

Guys, guys, relax. Both sides need to settle down a bit, the last couple days have been so good, I see little reason to go back into infighting.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, guys, relax. Both sides need to settle down a bit, the last couple days have been so good, I see little reason to go back into infighting.

Exactly. The 'how do you see' thread resolved a lot of this.

[Forté]

 

Guys, guys, relax. Both sides need to settle down a bit, the last couple days have been so good, I see little reason to go back into infighting.

Exactly. The 'how do you see' thread resolved a lot of this.

I feel that thread has been good on a lot of levels.

 

Now, discussions are a good thing so long as everyone takes on board what others say and do not dismiss others views because they do not match their own. Be civil to each other please and don't forget that the internet is a fickle place and the intended viewpoints and emotions do not always translate as intended.

 

I know this is the Chaos Forum, but it doesn't have to degenerate into infighting. And everyone has proven themselves of late to be respectful to each other. Be nice to keep it that way :tu:

[Slave to Darkness]

Guys, guys, relax. Both sides need to settle down a bit, the last couple days have been so good, I see little reason to go back into infighting.

Exactly. The 'how do you see' thread resolved a lot of this.

I feel that thread has been good on a lot of levels.

Now, discussions are a good thing so long as everyone takes on board what others say and do not dismiss others views because they do not match their own. Be civil to each other please and don't forget that the internet is a fickle place and the intended viewpoints and emotions do not always translate as intended.

I know this is the Chaos Forum, but it doesn't have to degenerate into infighting. And everyone has proven themselves of late to be respectful to each other. Be nice to keep it that way

silence wench!!! ;)

yea c'mon guys, the ETL showed that we are the best group on here, lets not ruin it now by infighting. anyway everyones view is wrong apart from mine :D

[Forté]

I'll let you have that one Slave (though the plastic fix is wearing off slowly ;) )

 

now back to the topic please

[Uprising]

 

 

I am more than happy to qualify that as the 'current' studio team. Hardly anyone is left from when the setting was created or it's golden age in 3rd.

Yes 3rd did have some nice fluff/flavor for the game but also had some terrible fluff as well, like ever other edition.  I am enjoying some of the addition fluff that is currently being release, espically from a chaos point of view.  We have grow a lot in 6th/7th from a fluff point of view, and enjoying the variety.   You are entitle to your opinion, but do not start to enforce it on others.  While you see third as a golden era, I see it as a dull bronze.  We all like different things, and the studio proves us fluff(good and bad, base off of likes/dislikes).  If you dislike something, then go back to your sub-forums, chaos is now a community of creation and freedom, not bitterness anymore. 

 

Now lets get back on topic.

As I've said repeatedly, here and elsewhere, people are free to like what they want. You however, don't get to decide where I post and what discussions I partake in, so you may want to reread the forum rules before commanding anyone around.

 

You are correct, you may do as you please, post where you please, and discuss your opinion etc.  I have no power over what you post or were.  If I came off as commanding/tyrannical, that was not the purpose.  The purpose was to remind people to stay on topic, and be respectful, have fun, look outside the box, and not to have another thread start on the road of damnation.  Also it was an example to show others have a difference of opinion.  Let us agree to remain civil, and try not to get this thread lock down. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I could certainly be less :cuss-y. I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new studio directions.

[Forté]

I could certainly be less :cuss-y. I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new studio directions.

As are a lot of us older gamers (1st ed here).

[Loesh]

I could certainly be less -y. I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new studio directions.

As are a lot of us older gamers (1st ed here).

Well, in the short time here I haven't seen anyone suggest that the CEO of GW should have his kids killed and fed to him.

So you're doing significantly better then some other forums.

[Slave to Darkness]

I could certainly be less -y. I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new studio directions.

As are a lot of us old gamers (1st ed here).

corrected that for you.. oh and check ya fb msg's

[Uprising]

I could certainly be less -y. I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new studio directions.

It will be ok, we are here to help. Change is the only constant. We are all adjusting.

[Wade Garrett]

l still think "lf Abaddon is cut, all of Chaos bleeds" is assigning one man far more importance than he is entitled to.

 

I certainly didn't feel as though the Red Corsairs or lron Warriors were diminished when ADB wrote about the Despoiler falling short and being betrayed by his lackeys in Soul Hunter.

[Loesh]

l still think "lf Abaddon is cut, all of Chaos bleeds" is assigning one man far more importance than he is entitled to.

 

I certainly didn't feel as though the Red Corsairs or lron Warriors were diminished when ADB wrote about the Despoiler falling short and being betrayed by his lackeys in Soul Hunter.

 

I'v softened to the idea but I don't particularly like it from a purely emotional standpoint. I'd rather see the other Legions be super-cool guys during the Long War then more Black Legion stuff, but I find it tolerable at least.

 

Speaking of Red Corsairs, i'd also like to see more of Huron purely because I like the idea of Space Marines in pirate hats shouting expletives over a Imperial Cruisers Vox. :p

[Kol Saresk]

Abaddon wasn't betrayed in Soul Hunter though. He held an interview on a potential hire-ee and was refused, no more and no pess. The Night Lords still fought on until the Blood Angels attacked. Now Blood Reaver, that was a fight.

[Wade Garrett]

Kol...you're wrong.

 

Halasker's warband had to fight its way through the Black Legion to get back to its ship, a task they took to with gusto, and for all its bootlicking the Exalted was more than happy to cut sails and leave Abaddon and his men to face the Imperium alone when the going got tough.

 

When your allies abandon you and kill your sworn troops in the process, that's a betrayal.

[Quixus]

Speaking of Red Corsairs, i'd also like to see more of Huron purely because I like the idea of Space Marines in pirate hats shouting expletives over a Imperial Cruisers Vox.

"Wot dem spiky marines got fancy 'ats, too? Gots to 'ave me one of dem. Oi, get me krooza to dat maelstrom thingy."

SCNR

[Kol Saresk]

Kol...you're wrong.

 

Halasker's warband had to fight its way through the Black Legion to get back to its ship, a task they took to with gusto, and for all its bootlicking the Exalted was more than happy to cut sails and leave Abaddon and his men to face the Imperium alone when the going got tough.

 

When your allies abandon you and kill your sworn troops in the process, that's a betrayal.

Yep, because the Romans never had civil wars. :D

[Loesh]

Kol...you're wrong.

Halasker's warband had to fight its way through the Black Legion to get back to its ship, a task they took to with gusto, and for all its bootlicking the Exalted was more than happy to cut sails and leave Abaddon and his men to face the Imperium alone when the going got tough.

When your allies abandon you and kill your sworn troops in the process, that's a betrayal.

Yep, because the Romans never had civil wars.

Well yes, but do those civil wars not count as treachery on the part of someone? those are often core components of all civil wars.

I'm pretty sure leaving someone to die and killing their men fits the criteria.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that it was the Black Legion who fired the first shots. While everyone, including the Black Legion, was retreating, they took the time to shoot down Halasker's Thunderhawks so he couldn't retrieve his men. And when Halasker relayed this, what was the Exalted's response? "I demand confirmation". The Night Lords were planning to betray the Black Legion. The Black Legion betrayed them first because the Tenth Company refused to reengage. Yes, treachery was involved. But treachery is an act, not a plan. Abaddon was not betrayed in Soul hunter because he did the betraying.

 

As for the Exalted, he was in favor of helping the Black Legion every step of the way. Even while talking to Ruven, he suggested that they strike the Blood Angels now to cripple the enemy. To aid the Black Legion. The only reason he even thought of going along the originally planned treachery was because his foremost loyalty was to the VIII and there was too much opposition in his warband for him to stop the plan from happening. That and delaying the Vengeful Spirit while he picked up Halasker's men so the Hunter's Premonition could survive played into the loyalty factor.