How to run a Black Legion HQ / List ?

[Prot]

This is an easy question for those in the know...

 

Right now when I make a Chaos list it seems FAR easier for me to make a somewhat competitive Crimson Slaughter list. It's not just the background; I'm talking purely about efficient list building without going over the top.

 

When I do CS it seems easier to build a multi component list... I don't like to do monochromatic lists. It's my preference to play some shooty, some assault since I personally feel we do neither best. I prefer to let my opponent make me decide how to respond and at the end of the day we're talking purely Maelstrom here which is a massive factor.

 

So anyway back to CS.... it seems fairly straightforward for me to make a Divination Sorc, perhaps throw him behind an aegis (perhaps) and get him and cultists on a quad, 'divinate' the Oblits, or whatever... let the Possessed, or even the Draznitch chosen to handle the wetwork and the list does okay with Kranon too. It's a fairly straightforward list.

 

Black Legion. This seems so much more difficult to me. If you recall my last batrep, the list was based on something I really don't like: An uber character, with uber retinue gobbling up a truckload of points, which in turn has one bad turn, and dies, nearly costing me the game.

 

So how do I build a Black Legion HQ?

 

Idea 1: My initial goal was to make a super cool powerful Sorc that used Last Memory of Yuranthos. I seem to feel him doing his role with Termie armour..... I asked the forum about the best way to use that power or if it was any good in 7th.... no real advice there. So I skipped that idea....

 

Idea 2: Abaddon and the Disappointments. I got slammed pretty hard by an Ork Mega Amoured boss and it instantly reminded my of why I like Kranon.... no Daemon weapon. I'm so cursed with those things it's something you have to see to believe.

 

Idea 3: What about the relics...? What if I combine the Spineshiver (welfare Drachnya) and Hand of Darkness (dubious talon thingy) and Skull of Kerngar? I was thinking of doing my Black Legion Lord, Protivus the Lost based on this concept. Give him the mark of Khorne, and the Juggernaut and put him with 5 vanilla bikes???

 

This comes to a whopping 260 pts!  (I also gave him a 4++ Sigil) BUT in one shot he can insta-kill something, or go with the Spineshiver for +1 Initiative and AP3..... for marines.

 

Also he is not stuck in Termie armour so transport/deepstrike isn't an issue as he will start on the table, and move fast with bikes.

 

What do you guys think?

 

I still have the odd squad of mixed role Chosen at 290 pts in a rhino, and then the list exists off of Cultists/Hellcult/Helbrute and some other junk including Maulerfiends (which make every list.)

 

When I view this HQ, and I view the list overall, I still prefer Kranon, even with a possessed tax. The support of the two lists is super similar, but I think where my Black Legion fail is in the HQ (using the supplement of course.)

 

Any ideas on how I can maximize my Black Legion HQ? Right now it's hard getting Black Legion games in because I'm finding it just easier/funner with Crimson Slaughter. But obviously I could be missing something right under my nose.

[Midnightmare]

What about said juggerlord with spineshiver/skull/poweraxe combo? I haven't tried it as I use Khârn normally but it is a little cheaper. Depends if the spineshiver is specialist or not I suppose. You could always run that combo the old faithful Nurgle biker Lord, although I could understand why you wouldn't (I use khorne myself too)

[Prot]

Yea, I guess I could try nurgle biker but the issue here is... what to do with it? Poweraxe over Black Hand? I guess it's cheaper but the idea of insta-gibbing something is tempting, and really the spineshiver is the only thing I'd need from the codex because at toughness 6 I'd probably ditch the Skull.

 

I'm not feeling the love here. Not sure if I can pull this off from the BL codex. (or make it worth while) It doesn't seem like many have tried the artifacts?

[Midnightmare]

I know what you mean, that's why when using the BL I either use Khârn for cheap/chopper, Abby coziI love the guy (no BoD though as I have no termies) or a Khorne Daemon Prince, purely for fluff. Which is kind of why I use the supplement anyway :)

 

Going to be trying a Juggerlord I have been working on next for a campaign, but from the standard book. Never used the CS book, so can't comment sorry!

[Emperors Immortals]

I was hoping someone who plays more games could comment, but the main reason I run CS is for the universal Fear and the Daemonheart, which should be in the core book anyway..

 

With the BL book I take (when being a little more competitive) a Nurgle bike lord with powerfist and spineshiver, pretty cheap and fast and with T6 its lasting a while. Slaaneshi with spineshiver is a lovely surprise for Eldar, especially considering the special MoS>Eldar rules :evil

 

The only other artifacts I take semi-regularly is the Hand on a Disc Sorcerer or the Yuranthos on a Slaanesh Sorcerer on Steed. They both have the movement to get in range and surprise enemy characters but still be good against troops/light armour, though both can die hard if unlucky or outplayed.

 

Ive found the other artifacts either far too expensive (im looking at you Eye of Night) or just unnecessary (Crucible). BL is a great book, ive read it a few times now and its not weak by any means. Its just the special powers are a little underwhelming unless you want Terminator's.

 

Draznicht's rule is a pretty good IMO, and they both do well enough to consider. My big problem now is saying that if you alrady enjoy teh CS book, perhaps stick with it? My gaming opportunities are pretty thin on the ground these days and I would'nt waste a game on a not very fun list.

 

 

 

Tl;DR - IMO take CS unless you like Abaddon and retinue OR want the spineshiver on a character you have a plan for.

[Prot]

I know what you mean, that's why when using the BL I either use Khârn for cheap/chopper, Abby coziI love the guy (no BoD though as I have no termies) or a Khorne Daemon Prince, purely for fluff. Which is kind of why I use the supplement anyway

Going to be trying a Juggerlord I have been working on next for a campaign, but from the standard book. Never used the CS book, so can't comment sorry!

I agree. When comparing the standard Chaos Codex, if we are talking purely ruleswise on the tabletop, it is quite hard to get Black Legion to click into place. (It's just an awkward feeling codex to me.)

I was hoping someone who plays more games could comment, but the main reason I run CS is for the universal Fear and the Daemonheart, which should be in the core book anyway..

With the BL book I take (when being a little more competitive) a Nurgle bike lord with powerfist and spineshiver, pretty cheap and fast and with T6 its lasting a while. Slaaneshi with spineshiver is a lovely surprise for Eldar, especially considering the special MoS>Eldar rules :evil

The only other artifacts I take semi-regularly is the Hand on a Disc Sorcerer or the Yuranthos on a Slaanesh Sorcerer on Steed. They both have the movement to get in range and surprise enemy characters but still be good against troops/light armour, though both can die hard if unlucky or outplayed.

Ive found the other artifacts either far too expensive (im looking at you Eye of Night) or just unnecessary (Crucible). BL is a great book, ive read it a few times now and its not weak by any means. Its just the special powers are a little underwhelming unless you want Terminator's.

Draznicht's rule is a pretty good IMO, and they both do well enough to consider. My big problem now is saying that if you alrady enjoy teh CS book, perhaps stick with it? My gaming opportunities are pretty thin on the ground these days and I would'nt waste a game on a not very fun list.

Tl;DR - IMO take CS unless you like Abaddon and retinue OR want the spineshiver on a character you have a plan for.

Thanks for this^ Great ideas here, and some good feedback. It does appear very few people here (can't speak for the entire internet) don't really have much to say about "playing" Black Legion. It seems rather largely theory hammered stuff.

CS: Draznicht is actually a little better than I think most people give credit. Now why he isn't a BL type character (thus a troop) is beyond me. But hey, he is a CS dude, and imho he carries a lot of credit for his 10 points..... To me, he helps make the Chosen a true multipurpose unit, which is my favorite. (never been fond of mono-role units if I can avoid it)

BL: I am finding those artifacts just too expensive and contrasting the CS ones, not as useful overall.

Fun:??? What's that??? J/k.... but yea, I do find CS fun. I've always been hung up on playing a founding Legion... for years. It's stupid of me really. What I do fear is GW has this way of painting a poster boy, then leaving him to die. I think that will happen to CS. When we finally do get a 7th/8th/9th edition (?) codex, CS will probably be equivalent to "The Purge". A footnote. That kind of sucks, but I also derive lots of fun out of background/fiction, etc. But honestly? As is stands now I really like the CS background, and character. Again, they are the only real 'chapter' gone bonkers that I really like.

- Your final note is bang on. My goal was to make a list surrounding my self created special character (the dude on a Juggernaut with toys) and it's not really working how I hoped....

I was supposed to play a Chaos game last night, and flipped over to my Ravenwing in frustration. Thanks for the post I really appreciate the thoughts.

[Emperors Immortals]

@MidnightRunner you argument (because fluff) is awesome - its the only way I write a list and play a battle these days . That way if I lose its really not such a big deal, before though it would .KILL. ME. Khorne is a good theme - fully fluffy and fun even when losing, because winning is not Khornes primary focus! :D Servants of Slaughter is awesome fun too, thought about allies?

 

@Prot I can't post for awhile but Id be very happy to help craft a fun list with you, first question is whats the real reason for using C:BL? I totally understand wanting an official background for your forces, that's why im stoked the new ADB books are BL - I can justify myself! Other people dont care as much but I do.

 

I mean have you thought about detachments? How do you feel about mixing marks or sorcerers? Since I embraced the full pantheon I have been having more fun then ever, and Ive been here about 20 years, like many of us older posters!

 

The future to me is good, I like our dex and its getting fun again.

[incinerator950]

It's remarkably funny how similar Beasts of Annihilation are too Crimson Slaughter.

[bozo69pd]

I think the main consideration is are you fighting an space marines or not? CS has good WL traits, relics, lots of units can't take VoTLW, and  army wide fear that I ALWAYS forget to use because I fight space marines 95% of the time.

 

If you run the Black Legion codex I think it is mostly for fluff reasons or because you want every unit to have VoTLW. If you use Terminators it's also nice because you get buffed (too bad it costs extra). I don't use the relics except maybe the eternal warrior skull on a kitted out DP. I just do PF/LC on biker lord combo.

[walpurgisnacht]

You know what I have found? That by taking the old chestnut units that are "noncompetitive", I have had success.

 

Example: vs Tau.

 

Buffmander

 

Suits with missiles

 

Riptide (singular) I'm guessing because opponent didn't want to be :cuss

 

Firewarrior X 3 outflanked

 

Marker light guys

 

Vs

 

Juggalo Axe guy - ok, some what competitive, but not with BL tax and plasma pistol

 

CSM 10 man squads with special weapon and rhinos X 3

 

Bikers X 5 with 2 plasma guns, champ with plasma pistol - I know, I know, what's with the plasma pistols. He wounds himself almost every time.

 

Havoks X 8 with 4 auto cannon - kind of competitive

 

Havoks X 8 with 4 lascannon - real expensive

 

Two oblits - ok, competitive but not really. They managed to scatter full 12" away from Buffmander and crew off board edge. Hooray?!?

 

Anyhoo, long story short; I won. With VoLW CSM in Rhinos versus Tau. A veteran Tau player who laughed when he saw my aged chaos force circa 1998. So, small base oblits that look like industrial accident victims trying to pass habanero chili dogs and ham fisted CSM. In bawkses.

 

I think he was most frightened by the korn lord and bikes as he dumped a +lot+ of firepower on them leaving the lord with one wound and the champ. He should have paid more attention to the havoks who blasted the blank out of him.

Oh yeah, he couldn't hurt my rhinos either. So I drove around getting objectives and won the game. He got first blood and slay the warlord.

[Prot]

That's a fine list that can have its moments, and trust me, no one on this forum is happier than me that you plowed Tau through the ground, but it isn't really a Black Legion codex list.

 

What I was actually trying to do was create a similar list using my homemade lord and the (some) of the BL artifacts, but  I think it's not worth it. I'm probably better off doing what you did... just firing up a vanilla Khorne lord or even Khârn and playing vanilla.

[Dammeron]

I have surprising amounts of success using the Black Legion supplement to represent a splinter Black Legion band that are on-loan to my Severed Angels from Abby-Dabby-Doo-Da-Don (though they're ostensibly there to keep the Angels sweet). Note that the list, like all those that I use, is fashioned more with an eye towards background and fluff rather than all out competition, so there's a lot here that one might regard as redundant or "a waste of points:"

 

HQ:

 

Verriscius Septile, The Wingless Saint (Chaos Sorcerer with MoS, GoM, VOTLW, Spell Familiar, AoDG, 3 mastery levels and Last Memory of Yuranthros)

 

 

Troops:

 

The Fractured Dance (six Chosen, MoS, five Plasma Guns, Icon of Excess, VOTLW, champion with GoM, power weapon, Rhino transport with Dirge Caster and Havoc Launcher)

 

The Children of Sin (30 Chaos Cultists, MoS, 3 Flamers), part of Helcult formation.

 

The Vermillion Fraternity (10 Chaos Cultists, Flamer, MoS), part of Helcult formation.

 

 

Elites:

 

Denagrahs The Broken Idol (Helbrute with power scourge and heavy flamer), part of Helcult Formation

 

The Cerulian Choir (squad of five Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters and CCW, Champion with GoM, Doom Siren, Icon of Excess, VOTLW, Rhino with Dirge Caster)

 

 

 

Fast Attack:

 

The Nightmare of Venados (Heldrake with Baleflamer)

 

 

 

Heavy Support:

 

The Tantalites (two Maulerfiends with magma cutters)

 

 

 

As you can see, the list is in no way optimised and flies in the face of the current minimalist philosophy that predominates the current meta. That is simply not the way I play or the wayy I build armies; sometimes it costs me, sometimes it provides surprising boons. Generally, the sorcerer accompanies the Noise Marines in their rhino on one flank,, accopanied by a Maulerfiend, whilst the Chosen take the other, accompanied by a Maulerfiend. The cultists and Helbrute generally head for objectives and cover, whilst the Heldrake either discourages potential threats or torches them outright. Though the Chosen and Noise Marine units are small, owing to their equipment, they can put out A LOT of firepower, as well as being quite handy in assault. The Sorcerer (on top of the highly underrated Slaanesh primaris owing to Chaos Psychic Focus) generally makes one roll on the Slaanesh lore, one on Biomancy or Telepathy and one on Infernal Daemonology (usually swapping for the Prrimaris unless he gets something particularly useful). A lot of potential for protection or buffing spells, which have proven invaluable against all comers, and The Last Memory provides a nasty little surprise if you can get it in range.

 

Not necessarily an army for a hyper-competitive environment; wily opponents will take advantage of the lacking numbers. If I have  a few more points to play with,, I sometimes take a Daemon Prince or daemon allies to povide summoning support and more assault capability. Always have a lot of fun with it.