Deep strike Vs. Vehicles

[Captain Coolpants]

Okay. So from what I understand, the characters gain the original units detachments rules, but the original unit do not benefit from the characters detachments rules?

 

So an inquisitor that joins a squad of terminators can deepstrike turn 1 (as long as said terminators are in the NSF)?

 

Or am I just not getting it? :S

 

 

And for the 2 or more independent character in a squad, probably a roll off at the beginning of the game? Or to make it more fun, at the beginning of each turn! :-P

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Yes an IC retains their same faction. However the faction is not really a factor. It is the definition of 'unit' that is important.

 

Units in a detachment must contain minis from the same Faction.

 

So it's a big issue.

 

 

 

An IC joined to a unit ceases to be a unit in its own right, instead becoming part of something else but still follows the rules for characters (note characters NOT Independent Characters).

 

I see where you're going with this. :)

 

What else does it become a part of?  It can't be the unit it's joined, as it's of a different Faction.  The IC must remain a unit from it's original Detachment.

 

 

 

Command benefits- rites of teleportation excerpt states "..you can make reserve rolls for any unit in this detachment..". (emphasis mine).

The key here is that the IC is no longer a 'unit' for rules purposes for the duration he is joined to something else [unit] so that units command benefits apply while his do not. i.e. he is treated as a sergeant with better LO,S.

 

Take a non GK IC that joins a GK unit.  That IC cannot be part of a NSF Detachment.

 

While it may temporarily join a GK unit, the IC is still from a different Detachment.

 

It *has* to be, because all minis are from a Detachment, and this one can't be from the NSF Detachment, because it isn't Faction: Grey Knight.

[Brom MKIV]

Aaaaaaaaaah.... mmm beer.

OK. An IC that even temporarily joins a unit, even one of a different faction, retains its faction. That is not the issue at hand.

As the rules for ICs state pg 166 last sentence paragraph 4:

"if an independent character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model..". Meaning when joined to a unit he is NOT a separate unit. He is literally absorbed into said unit "and counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". So when command benefits state "the unit" the ICs benefits do not apply to the unit he has joined. Only the reverse is true.

Players can choose to play this sort of thing loosely and if that's local custom then cool.

However I wouldn't be surprised when it snowballs. The logic is basically its own form of unbound.

Anyway carry on

[Quozzo]

I agree with the unit of IC's. If Draigo and an SM Libby in TDA joined together, could they deepstrike turn one with the rerolls from Tiggy?

[Captain Coolpants]

Surely if an independent character joins a squad that is of a different formation/faction, then both parts of the squad forgo their special detachment/faction rules?

[Gentlemanloser]

So when command benefits state "the unit" the ICs benefits do not apply to the unit he has joined. Only the reverse is true.

 

Why?  As said above, if you go this route, then surely the Space Marine Tac squad loses Objective Secured.

 

As the GK IC, while a part of the unit, is still of a Faction that *cannot* be part of the CAD the Tac Squad was taken in.

 

Therefore the Combined unit cannot be part of the CAD while the IC is attached and the unit as a whole loses *all* Command Benefits.

 

 

 

Aaaaaaaaaah.... mmm beer.

 

Is awesome. :)

[Zembar]

 

So when command benefits state "the unit" the ICs benefits do not apply to the unit he has joined. Only the reverse is true.

 

Why?  As said above, if you go this route, then surely the Space Marine Tac squad loses Objective Secured.

 

As the GK IC, while a part of the unit, is still of a Faction that *cannot* be part of the CAD the Tac Squad was taken in.

 

Therefore the Combined unit cannot be part of the CAD while the IC is attached and the unit as a whole loses *all* Command Benefits.

 

I'm thinking that it's ok to have things happen to a detachment during the game that wouldn't be alright when constructing it. Just like combat squadding a ten man strike squad in an allied detachment wouldn't break it, I think a model joining a unit using "during game"-rules wouldn't ruin the detachment either.

 

Otherwise sillyness would ensue, like losing objective secured because your HQ or one of your troops are killed and you no longer fill the requirements for a CAD.

 

In short: Requirements for constructing a detachment != requirements for maintaining it during play.

[Quozzo]

 

So when command benefits state "the unit" the ICs benefits do not apply to the unit he has joined. Only the reverse is true.

 

Why?  As said above, if you go this route, then surely the Space Marine Tac squad loses Objective Secured.

 

As the GK IC, while a part of the unit, is still of a Faction that *cannot* be part of the CAD the Tac Squad was taken in.

 

Therefore the Combined unit cannot be part of the CAD while the IC is attached and the unit as a whole loses *all* Command Benefits.

 

The CAD is only for creating your detachment. Afterwards the unit are still part of that detachment and cannot change. Similarly the IC is still part of the other detachment, that doesn't change.

 

The tac squad is still a troops choice. Regardless of what IC's have joined the unit. It is still part of the detachment is was taken for and still gains the benefits associated with that. RoT still benefits units from C:GK if an IC was attached, but if an GK IC was attached to an SM unit then it looses RoT as it becomes part of the SM unit, and would then be eligible for their command benefit instead, like OS perhaps.

 

I don't see where the confusion lies. If an IC joins a unit i becomes part of that unit for ALL rules purposes.

[Gentlemanloser]

 Afterwards the unit are still part of that detachment and cannot change. Similarly the IC is still part of the other detachment, that doesn't change.

 

 

 

I don't see where the confusion lies. If an IC joins a unit i becomes part of that unit for ALL rules purposes.          

 

If the IC doesn't change from being part of the NSF Detachment, then it still have the Rites of Teleportation Command Benefit.

 

A Benefit given to all units in that Detachment.

 

The *only* way the IC can lose it is if he somehow becomes not part of the Detachment.

 

Which as you say, can't change.

 

 

 

In short: Requirements for constructing a detachment != requirements for maintaining it during play.

 

An interesting point on Manditory units.

 

But it's a different subject to the viability of an existing unit.

 

No where in the rules does it state the *Restrictions* of a Detachment stop as soon as play starts.

 

[Quozzo]

 

Afterwards the unit are still part of that detachment and cannot change. Similarly the IC is still part of the other detachment, that doesn't change.

 

 

 

I don't see where the confusion lies. If an IC joins a unit i becomes part of that unit for ALL rules purposes.

 

If the IC doesn't change from being part of the NSF Detachment, then it still have the Rites of Teleportation Command Benefit.

 

You're right he does. But as he is not a unit he cant use them, if he starts the game not attached to a unit he would benefit from it. If when during the game he becomes detached from the unit then he would benefit from RoT, but as RoT is before that's possible you don't see it in game.

 

A Benefit given to all units in that Detachment.

 

The *only* way the IC can lose it is if he somehow becomes not part of the Detachment.

 

Which as you say, can't change.

 

 

 

In short: Requirements for constructing a detachment != requirements for maintaining it during play.

 

An interesting point on Manditory units.

 

But it's a different subject to the viability of an existing unit.

 

No where in the rules does it state the *Restrictions* of a Detachment stop as soon as play starts.

 

I dont have my book, but where does it say they continue into the game. As far as I know it only mentions it when creating an army. As I've said before. If that was the case then you cant attach a HQ IC to a unit, as you wont have a HQ choice. Or when a unit dies you wont be fulfilling the mandatory troops slots so you would lose.

 

You have to take at least two troops choices. Even if you only take one and then combat squad it, despite the unit counting as two for all rules purposes (or seomething to that effect). Another example of where the FOC only applies to constructing an army, not during play.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

But as he is not a unit he cant use them

 

He is a unit.

 

Even attached to another unit, he's still a unit.  No longer a unit on his own, but a combined unit.  Of which one part is from the NSF Detachment, which hasn't lost it's command Benefit.

 

And a combined unit rolls a single dice for Reserve rolls...

 

 

 

if he starts the game not attached to a unit he would benefit from it. If when during the game he becomes detached from the unit then he would benefit from RoT

 

As the IC never leaves the NSF Detachment, he *never* loses the Command Benefit.

 

He never loses RoT.

 

 

 

Another example of where the FOC only applies to constructing an army, not during play.

 

The FoC of a Detachment is neither it's Command Benefits, nor it's Restrictions.

 

The FoC is totally seperate.

[Quozzo]

 

But as he is not a unit he cant use them

 

He is a unit.

 

Even attached to another unit, he's still a unit.  No longer a unit on his own, but a combined unit.  Of which one part is from the NSF Detachment, which hasn't lost it's command Benefit.

 

And a combined unit rolls a single dice for Reserve rolls...

 

 

 

if he starts the game not attached to a unit he would benefit from it. If when during the game he becomes detached from the unit then he would benefit from RoT

 

As the IC never leaves the NSF Detachment, he *never* loses the Command Benefit.

 

He never loses RoT.

 

 

 

Another example of where the FOC only applies to constructing an army, not during play.

 

The FoC of a Detachment is neither it's Command Benefits, nor it's Restrictions.

 

The FoC is totally seperate.

 

So...

"if an independent character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model..". Meaning when joined to a unit he is NOT a separate unit. He is literally absorbed into said unit "and counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". So when command benefits state "the unit" the ICs benefits do not apply to the unit he has joined. Only the reverse is true.

Would apply. and we've gone full circle.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Would apply. and we've gone full circle.

 

;)

 

I addressed that above.

 

If the IC doesn't leave its Faction, and it doesn't leave it's Deatchment it still has the Detachments Command Benefit.

 

Regardless of whatever unit or combined unit it is a part of.

 

To say otherwise would mean showing some BRB support of units in a Detachment losing the command Benefits.

 

As far as I'm away, there is nothing to support this, ever.  There is no rule that deals with leaving a detachment, or losing a Command Benefit.

 

It's just (currently) not possible.

 

If anyone thinks you can, you'll have to show rule support.

[Izekael]

 

Doesn't all units in a detachment usually have to come from the same faction, for example combined arms and nemesis strike force? Of course they might be able to join each others units but it seems strange that a unit would benefit from something affecting a detachment which they can't be part of?

 

Edit; on the other hand it states that battle brothers does benefits from each others modifiers to reserve rolls.

 

That's the issue. See, what is a mixed unit considered to be? Reserves rolls are made for entire units, not for any IC's attached to said unit prior to deployment. GW don't provide a clear answer, so we resort to RAW. Under RAW, GK Libby+UM Terminators in Reserves, you roll a single Reserve die for the whole unit to come on. The UM Terminators are part of Tiggy's detachment, and thus benefit from his 'Gift of Prescience' re-roll to their Reserve roll. The GK Librarian meanwhile is part of the Nemesis Strikeforce detachment, and thus benefits from 'Rites of Teleportation'. You only make a single Reserves roll for the entire unit to come on, so there is no way to seperate out the buffs, or claim they're seperate units. If your opponents argue the point, ask them to explain which detachment that mixed unit belongs to, and how they determine it. By RAW, a mixed unit is considered to be part of both detachments, and thus the benefits stack.

 

I'm not sure GW intended the rules to work that way, but it is how it functions. Pretty hilarious IMO, because Tiggy fixes so many issues in one go, and he's not even that expensive (he's just easily killed).

From what I gather from the aegis discussion a re-roll isn't a modifier only a +-to the value rolled counts as a modifier.

 

 

Correct, and that's why if you want to buff a Knight unit to benefit from Tiggy's re-roll to Reserves, you have to attach him to that unit.

.

 

You separate them by factions. The NSF has a faction requirement of grey knights or no faction. So if the do not meet those requirements they do not get rites. Rules only transfer to ic/units only if stated that they do and only if they still meet the orginal requirements.

 

 

Gk ic joins space smurfs. Ic still has rites smurfs do not. Since they cannot arrive together on turn one they can only roll on turn two under normal ds rules. Same goes for a go unit with a smurf ic.

 

Also if you say that requirements are just for construction then when game starts you do not have command benifts. Detachments ends at game start is what you are saying.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

You separate them by factions. The NSF has a faction requirement of grey knights or no faction. So if the do not meet those requirements they do not get rites.

 

But all Grey Kngihts are Grey Kngihts, so they do.

 

 

 

Rules only transfer to ic/units only if stated that they do and only if they still meet the orginal requirements.

 

Command Benefits =/= Universal Special Rules.
 

[Brom MKIV]

Even attached to another unit, he's still a unit.  No longer a unit on his own, but a combined unit.  Of which one part is from the NSF Detachment, which hasn't lost it's command Benefit.

 

This is the flaw in the reasoning. He is not still a unit.

The excerpts I quoted from above show that. He doesn't necessarily lose anything, its still there but only when he "again becomes a unit of one model".

 

Anyway this debate has been played out. I think players have enough insight to both sides. Time to move on.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

 He is not still a unit

 

He is still a unit.

 

Part of a combined unit.

 

As per the reserve rolls rules at least.

[Brom MKIV]

I thought my work was done here but I do have one last thing to add.

 

If ICs are still a unit within a unit then by that reasoning ICs can manifest the same power as the unit they are joined to.. i.e. purifying flame x 2. 

[THE PORTCULLIS]

I have been popping back on a regular basis to see how this allied IC debate develops.

 

Can I just say that GW expect children to be able to play this game. You'd have thought they might have decided against a complex and fall frought 150 page rulebook full of the unexplained.

[gk1989]

So from what i am reading, if i have a Gk librarian with a squad of TH/SS SM terminators (because why not) they cannot arrive turn 1 from deep strike because the unit is not originally part of the NSF. Conversely if Mephiston joins a squad of GK paladins (because that would be something wouldn't it?) then they can arrive because the overall unit was part of the NSF and the IC doesn't change that.  correct?

[Izekael]

 

You separate them by factions. The NSF has a faction requirement of grey knights or no faction. So if the do not meet those requirements they do not get rites.

 

But all Grey Kngihts are Grey Kngihts, so they do.

 

 

 

Rules only transfer to ic/units only if stated that they do and only if they still meet the orginal requirements.

 

Command Benefits =/= Universal Special Rules.

 

I was commenting on the fact everyone seems to think that rules just transfer, they do not and not all usr are unit rules.

 

I like the way you are cherry picking my post to pull it out of context.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cherry picking?

 

lol

 

Your post didn't have any more information that the quotes...

 

And yes, the Command Benefits remain.  Until anyone can find any BRB ruling that details how a unit can;

 

1: Change their Faction

2: Change their Detachment

3: Lose or transfer Command Benefits and Restrictions

 

Basically, the BRB is in no way detailed or robust enough to deal with this issue.  This is something the developers have either missed or ignored, and the rules do not cover *any* cross faction/detachment interaction.

 

The fragile ICs rules can be seen to buckle and break under the strain.  "For all rules purposes" is quite demonstrably bunk.  And not only that, any Codex specific rule would (thanks to the unchanged page 7) over rule "For all rules purposes".

 

And Rites of Teleportation is a Codex rule (unlike Objective Secured) let's not forget...

[Izekael]

1 it does state you cannot change faction. Codex=faction cannot change your codex=cannot change faction.

2 it may not say you can't change but since it doesn't say you can by default you cannot

3 you do not meet requirements of said rule or benift you cannot gain said rule of benift.

 

Pretty clear cut to me.

[Gentlemanloser]

Rites applies to units part of a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.

 

Are you part of the Nemesis Strikeforce Detachment?

 

 

 

it may not say you can't change but since it doesn't say you can by default you cannot

 

So you agree you *can't* leave the Detachment, if originally bought in it.

 

Do you still meet the requirement of Rites?

 

Yes.

 

Someone, anyone, *needs* to prove otherwise.

 

They really do, or can we please let this sink.

 

There is Zero rule support for changing Faction or Detachment, and Zero rule support for the loss of a Command Benefit.

 

Anything else is pure speculation until sown otherwise.

[Brom MKIV]

The majority of opinions I've come across locally and on multiple forums are against what is suggested here. If it works locally cool but know that it is not a a lot of support for such a notion and making an army around it is risky, especially since tournaments tend to err on the conservative side IME. i.e. it will cause more problems than it solves, especially considering Ml 3 psykers arent in short supply around here and reserve manip starts at 70 pts without the troops tax tigurius incurs.

 

Either way I agree this thing is played out. Lets talk gunships and dogfighting instead!