The problem of established story plot - beware spoilers

[Captain Idaho]

Please do not take this thread as an indication that I am not wholly addicted and in love with the Heresy series.

 

This topic is a way of me airing something I feel is picking away at the series for me. Something frustrating.

 

The issue is; with the established story for many characters we are in a position where the plot of many books is stuck with regards to what can happen to whom. We know every character can't die because of what happens to them at a later date or because they're in 40K really frustrates me totally.

 

Example - In Unremembered Empire Guilliman and the Lion take on Cruze, declaring it's time to even the score regarding dead Primarchs. Then a bomb goes off killing the loyalists.

 

Yawn. We know Curze won't die at this time and we know Guilliman and the Lion survive. There's no tension.

 

Another example - Abaddon almost killed by Loken.

 

Yawn. We know Abaddon won't die. End of. No tension.

 

And when we have a character killed off like Eidolon and Lucius we know full well that they're coming back so there's little shock when they do. And making it believable is just plain hard to do without making it seem cheesey.

 

Personally I'd be happy to just ignore the established "fates" of many characters who are dead by the time 40K comes, treating what we think we know as miss information. So aside from the few Chaos characters I'd like to see Lorgar does die and doesn't actually become a daemon prince, perhaps because his soul is enslaved and used it was wrongly interpreted that he ascended etc. Maybe Curze wasn't assassinated but the Lion got him in the end. Leman Russ doesn't go missing at all but falls at the palace fighting to the throne room. Hell I'd even accept Guilliman dying abruptly and his Codex being published by a brother using his writings and all then surviving Primarchs contribute in honour to their brother (how touching would that be).

 

In summary; I'm just finding it boring to see some fights as they are never going to be decisive. There's little tension knowing a character must survive and get out of any trap.

[Lucien Eilam]

That seems to me like a simplistic way of looking at it. There's always more at stake than whether a particular "famous" character lives or dies. Maybe some authors are better at conveying that than others, but changing the story won't improve their writing.

 

I'd argue that it's actually quite unusual for a story to kill major protagonists, certainly in this genre. I never had any doubt than Conan, Elric, Corwin, Fafhrd or Bilbo would still be alive at the end of the story either, and it didn't harm my enjoyment of those books.

 

That we know they'll survive doesn't mean they weren't in genuine danger, and the interest, tension and story comes from how they react to and negotiate those situations.

 

If anything, The Horus Heresy has an advantage over most stories because, in addition to the previously known characters, it has introduced dozens more whose fates we don't know, and killed plenty of them.

[Atia]

No, that's like saying: Yoda should die in Episode III cause it's obvious that he survive his encounter with the emperor which makes the fight not as thrilling?^^

[Marshal Loss]

The Horus Heresy is mainly about filling in the gaps and solving mysteries that fans have wondered about for decades more so than attempting to forge a completely new narrative. It's part of what makes The Horus Heresy...well, The Horus Heresy. Start altering those key pillars of the universe in that setting and you affect 40k, which is a no-go.

 

I'm happy with it as it is, although it would be nice if we got to Terra before I turned 75 years old.

[Adra'Melek]

Is it not the same for my historical novel? Which these essentially are. I didn't care reading Bernard Cornwell books that the English would win at Crecy. Or that the Danes didn't take the whole of England (until later). Or that Arthur didn't stop the Saxons.

 

For 30k it only becomes a problem when some authors put loads of 40k characters in (mentioning no names). For guys like Abaddon it's about character development, not just the simple binary live or die.

[deathspectersgt7]

That is why I would rather see more unknowns in the storys. So far I find the Primarchs boring.

[Lonewolf86]

In some respects it is frustrating yes. It certainly made the last UE pretty boring in my eyes. Too many primarch fights will exacerbate the problem you have identified. That said done right they can be pretty cool-I liked the Khan-Mortarian showdown in Scars as we got to find out a good bit about both of them.

 

If they were writing this from scratch with the same rough idea of an end point I'd expect to see a lot more primarchs being killed. I'd have Magnus die on Prospero, Lorgar, Angron, Russ and the Khan on Terra and I'd have Dorn, Perturabo and Corax killed in the scouring.

 

It would be good for Mortarian to survive hating his very existence, Fulgrim would still 'kill' Guilliman and I'd leave Vulkan and Johnson to have disappeared after the scouring without any confirmation about whether they died or not.

[No Foes Remain]

I think the problem is they are concentrating on too many characters whose fates we know of. If we had more characters along the lines of Garro and Loken there would be more free reign on their fates and whether they live or die during the heresy and what sides they took.

 

Don't get me wrong I like that they are bringing some characters in like Pollux and Abbadon but do we really need a load of stories focused on the big-guys, like the primarchs and the notable characters of that time? We do need stories about them to explain their actions (like why the Lion, Guilliman and Russ were not at Terra) and give them some life, but there is a fine line between giving life and putting them in our face.

 

Take The First Heretic for example, it explains some key stuff about the Heresy and how it all came about but did not focus on Logar, Erebus and Kor Whatshisname. They were in it, but not the focal point. Instead we had Argel Tal whose fate was not written before he was created by ADB, so his fate was decided by the authors who wrote about him.

 

Personnally I would prefer more stories like that about the 'little guys' and how they fought in the Heresy rather than the Big Dogs and what they got up to.

 

 

Does any of that make sense? If not I'll try to reiterate.

[Tyrannicide]

So in other words, let's turn the Heresy into an Alternate Heresy? 

[Fire Golem]

@Cpt Uriel Ventris yeah that makes perfect sense, and it definitely works too, Argel Tal is one of my favourite characters and his story was very tense at times because I didn't know what was going to happen to him (well, there was the prophecy from Raum but that was pretty vague).

[No Foes Remain]

So in other words, let's turn the Heresy into an Alternate Heresy? 

Are you refering to my comment, brother? If so how did you come to that conclusion as thats not what I meant.

[Fire Golem]

I think he meant ones above saying more Primarchs and major characters should die :)

[Marshal Rohr]

The Primarchs and first captains show can be fun, but it's been done to death now. Some of the other first captains need more expansion, and the loyalists have been suffering from an appealing lack of attention in favor of the traitors.

[Slips]

*cough*Sigismund*cough*

 

And while yes, the Loyalist haven't been on equal footing with the Traitors in the Istvaan books, we need to remember that, besides the Battle on the Vth Planet, the whole thing revolves around the Traitor Legions gathered there and how the Heresy Truly swings into motion.

 

On the flip side, we're more likely to get a LOT of loyalist screen time in the books to come : Space Wolves + Custodes + Sisters of Silence vs Thousand Sons, Ultramarines vs Word Bearers, White Scars, Blood and Dark Angels, etc.

 

The only traitor legion that hasn't been covered yet was the Thousand Sons. The rest are loyalists. Its just a matter of time, really.

[Phoebus]

I don't mind the fact that a great deal of the series centers on "known events".  This is unavoidable, given the fact that novels and entire story arcs have to focus on major events and characters.  I think a more valid complaint would be that the handling of peripheral events or "fill in the gap" storylines has been largely hit-and-miss.

 

Legion, to me, set the standard for giving the Heresy more context, introducing unknown twists, etc.  Other than that, though?  Battle for the Abyss, Nemesis, The Outcast Dead, Vulkan Lives, The Unremembered Empire, and Vengeful Spirit have been lackluster.  They don't have impact.  At best, they have only had a tangential effect on the major storyline, and only truly affect those novels that are likewise peripheral/filling in the gaps.  At worst, they seemingly contradict previous books outright and then require awkward, questionable side-stories to explain said contradictions.

 

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to novels of this sort.  In fact, I think they're necessary for this series to truly thrive.  Right now, though, a lot of these stories seem disjointed and written mostly for the sake of writing about something other than the main storyline.

[JeffJedi]

Primarchs are very hard to kill. In many cases we have never even heard a Primarch speak to another before these books. Pretty much everything that happens involving a Primarch is a BIG deal here. Did we ever think we'd see Roboute, Sanguinius and the Lion in one place?

 

In almost any movie you know that certain characters are not going to die. James Bond for example. Comic books have had the same characters fighting for 75 years now and even when they do die they somehow come back.

[GhostMalone]

I just think we need more characters like zahriel nemiel corswain loken iacton Varren etc characters that have never existed in 40k lore but have big parts to yet play

[Vesper]

Another example - Abaddon almost killed by Loken.

 

Yawn. We know Abaddon won't die. End of. No tension.

The tension was more about "will Abaddon kill Loken ?", because Abaddon's victory made no doubt. Not because he's alive in 40k, but because he's the better fighter, he's fresher and better equiped.

Turns out Loken's fate currently is one of the most tragically missed opportunity at doing something good (the other one being the treatment of a Lucius).

I've never felt like Abaddon was threatened during the fight. It felt more like he was using his defensive superiority to his advantage. Stuff like "if Abaddon wasn't wearing his Terminator armor, he'd be so dead, my chainsword would tear through him because I'm so insanely badass, one day I will become Cerberus to reach new heights of badassery, turning my story into a never ending facepalm" is, well, kinda ridiculous. Thing is, he's wearing Terminator armor and he's probably fine taking blows that are no threat to him.

 

 

Personally I'd be happy to just ignore the established "fates" of many characters who are dead by the time 40K comes, treating what we think we know as miss information. So aside from the few Chaos characters I'd like to see Lorgar does die and doesn't actually become a daemon prince, perhaps because his soul is enslaved and used it was wrongly interpreted that he ascended etc. Maybe Curze wasn't assassinated but the Lion got him in the end. Leman Russ doesn't go missing at all but falls at the palace fighting to the throne room. Hell I'd even accept Guilliman dying abruptly and his Codex being published by a brother using his writings and all then surviving Primarchs contribute in honour to their brother (how touching would that be).

Yeah. No.

[Sons of Horus]

I think the problem has more to do with the way the novels are being written. I mean ADB nails it every single time he gets published. The battle at the end of The First Heretic was very well done even though we knew that neither Lorgar nor Corax would die on Isstvan V. But then take a look at Angel Exterminatus *cringes*. The characters were so boring and unbelievable, the plot was just as bad. Oh and speaking of sticking to established lore, I hope BL stops throwing the "shattered legions" into every single novel. They're supposed to be out of the fight because of the Dropsite Massacre.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, the Abaddon vs Loken thing I didn't really understand. Lokens fate was done terribly, but that battle was about killing Loken, not if Abaddon would win. In the first trilogy, if Abaddon had been written in a way that made him a deeper character and not just Horus the Lesser the fight would've had more drama.

 

By the same token, the Sigismund vs Khârn fight would be pointless because we know both survive. It may be poorly written (though thankfully John French mentioned handling it, so I'm excited) but if it's handled well the tension of two friends fighting one another will be tragic turned up to 11.

[Captain Idaho]

Nice thoughts everyone.

 

For the record I don't read historical novels either.

 

I'm not saying the history of the Heresy has to change completely but some facts can change.

 

I do agree that reading more about less known characters would give us back some suspense. I still want to see big characters in the series of course. Khârn in Betrayer was great and almost understated deliberately to make him believable. Likewise the interaction between Guilliman and the Lion was a real eye opener. The battle between Lorgar/Angron and Guilliman was also nicely done.

[Phoebus]

Primarchs are very hard to kill. In many cases we have never even heard a Primarch speak to another before these books. Pretty much everything that happens involving a Primarch is a BIG deal here. Did we ever think we'd see Roboute, Sanguinius and the Lion in one place?

 

In almost any movie you know that certain characters are not going to die. James Bond for example. Comic books have had the same characters fighting for 75 years now and even when they do die they somehow come back.

 

The question isn't whether or not the authors should use primarchs as characters.  The question is how well they are used, and to what extent/effect they are used to tell a story.

 

A significant portion of The Unremembered Empire, for example, depended on combat action involving a grand total of four primarchs. That's all fine and good, even though we - technically - know none of them could (or, well, should) die in said action.  What about the rest of the story, though?  The interaction between the Lion and Roboute is very strong, but ultimately it doesn't carry a novel.  Sanguinius' "coronation" as titular head of Imperium Secundus is the novel's closing action - not a significant part of it.  Worse, we know that, whatever his feelings at that time, Sanguinius is going to return to Terra and that Imperium Secundus is doomed to be forgotten.

 

In essence, what we got from The Unforgiven Empire is a lot of action without significant consequence, and updates on ostensibly major characters that don't really affect the major storyline.  It set up the next portion of the Imperium Secundus storyline, which is basically an aftermath to the storyline that really mattered - the Shadow Crusade that ensured the XIII Legion could not help the Imperium in its time on need.  At best, it provides an update to what the Lion and Sanguinius are up to before they start their respective journeys back to Terra.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Dan Abnett's fiction and I hold him as an indispensable part of this setting.  As far as novels - or even as continuations to the Horus Heresy - go, though, The Unremembered Empire just didn't impress me. It felt like filler at worst, like an update at best.  As posted earlier, it's part of what I consider to be a worrying trend: six out of 31 entries to the series feel like this sort of "filler".  I sincerely hope The Damnation of Pythos doesn't follow suit.

 

I hope BL stops throwing the "shattered legions" into every single novel. They're supposed to be out of the fight because of the Dropsite Massacre.

 

I'm not opposed to the Shattered Legions being featured in the storyline.  I'm just not in favor of the current direction they've got going: it lacks direction, it lacks memorable characters, and it feels more like writing about those legions for the sake of writing about those legions more than anything else.

[FashaTheDog]

Part of the fun of the Horus Heresy series is that it has a somewhat similar to the Greek plays in nature.  Namely the fact that the audience knew exactly how it would all turn out and often knew quite a few of the major details in the how, but what they didn't know and what brought them to the theater was the entirety of how.  Take Medea for example; when Euripides wrote the tragedy it was certain that nearly every person who say the play knew that Medea was going to be be betrayed by Jason and in revenge she would murder the children she bore Jason and be rewarded by the gods for it and whisked off to safety.  Yet they came because they wanted to see how Euripides would fill out the details of it, how he would handle the interaction of the characters.  In this example, there was no drama from discovering Medea's infanticide or shock at her divine reward, but the interest was entirely in the small details of how and what the characters specifically said and did.

[Stonerhino]

 

Primarchs are very hard to kill. In many cases we have never even heard a Primarch speak to another before these books. Pretty much everything that happens involving a Primarch is a BIG deal here. Did we ever think we'd see Roboute, Sanguinius and the Lion in one place?

 

In almost any movie you know that certain characters are not going to die. James Bond for example. Comic books have had the same characters fighting for 75 years now and even when they do die they somehow come back.

 

In essence, what we got from The Unforgiven Empire is a lot of action without significant consequence, and updates on ostensibly major characters that don't really affect the major storyline.  It set up the next portion of the Imperium Secundus storyline, which is basically an aftermath to the storyline that really mattered - the Shadow Crusade that ensured the XIII Legion could not help the Imperium in its time on need.  At best, it provides an update to what the Lion and Sanguinius are up to before they start their respective journeys back to Terra.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Dan Abnett's fiction and I hold him as an indispensable part of this setting.  As far as novels - or even as continuations to the Horus Heresy - go, though, The Unremembered Empire just didn't impress me. It felt like filler at worst, like an update at best.  As posted earlier, it's part of what I consider to be a worrying trend: six out of 31 entries to the series feel like this sort of "filler".  I sincerely hope The Damnation of Pythos doesn't follow suit.

 

I think you (or me) might be looking at UE backwards. 

 

I view UE as the end of an act and the rest of the novels and shorts where filler to get us from The First Heretic to UE.  A way to get some of the key players where they need to be rather then a way to tie up some loose ends and character achs.  Along with Angel Exterminatus and Vengeful Spirit the authors have given us a snapshot of where everyone is and what they are doing. 

 

If I'm right then the events in UE where set in motion very early in the series and are leading to something that was unknown to 40K's history books.