How do you see your Legion?

[Kol Saresk]

I've always entertained the idea of PoWs who were tortured en masse and broken psychologically before being a gun and told to march before their VIII Legion masters. The shattered psyches would cause them to be so scared of what was marching behind them that they wouldn't care who or what they had to kill in front of them in order to get away.

[Loesh]

I've always entertained the idea of PoWs who were tortured en masse and broken psychologically before being a gun and told to march before their VIII Legion masters. The shattered psyches would cause them to be so scared of what was marching behind them that they wouldn't care who or what they had to kill in front of them in order to get away.

 

So basically the imperial army. :p

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, there are weirdos in the Imperial Army who fight for courage and honor. Not to mention they have training. I'm saying to a mother, completely shatter her mind and then put her family between her and freedom and watch as she kills them just to get away from you.

[Phantomzero17]

My take on the cultists as I've been slower gathering and painting up some Orlocks.

 

Gangs made up of captured military personnel, civilians, and descendants of the ships original crew.  Sworn to the service of one of the claws they handle the grunt work of moving liberated equipment, captured personnel, and scavenging anything they find useful.  They are the primary means for which new weapons, supplies, and luxuries find there way down to the lower decks Black Market.

 

Still non-essential crew but afforded a little better lot in life then before.  And as such when necessary a claw will spend the lives of such men as there is always another group of mortals to find below decks.

[Loesh]

So, we've got an Anarchist Sleeper Cells, Enslaved Cannon Fodder, and a Hereditary Scavenger Teams.

 

This is one of the reasons I love Chaos, there's so many different takes that any three people are unlikely to have concepts of the same thing that resemble each other unless they are all under the same Chaos God, if even.

[Dragonlover]

Alpha Legion Cultists: Well trained, well equipped, not viewed as massively expendable. Sure, they'll have *some* cannon fodder, but it's not ideal. I also like to think that the half brothers are often in charge of these groups.

 

World Eater Cultists: Everything from mobs of bloody handed thugs to loose packs of superlative duelists. Probably also a recruitment ground to an extent, if you're young enough and one of the Legion sees you pull off an impressive kill, you get raised to Astartes.

 

That's a point, how do you guys see recruitment working? I've got some ideas, but I'll need to not be on my phone to type them up.

 

Dragonlover

[Marshal Rohr]

Anarchy =/= Chaos. If a world goes from peace to anarchy, that just means it goes to peace to peace without anyone in charge. What you mean is that is descends into violence which is not the same thing as, or interchangable, with anarchy.

[Loesh]

Anarchy =/= Chaos. If a world goes from peace to anarchy, that just means it goes to peace to peace without anyone in charge. What you mean is that is descends into violence which is not the same thing as, or interchangable, with anarchy.

I mean anarchy with violence and a desire to overthrow the system thus generating that violence in a particularly disorderly way, which I assume given the nature of the post seemed fairly obvious.

Edited the post to be a more clear.

[Loesh]

Alpha Legion Cultists: Well trained, well equipped, not viewed as massively expendable. Sure, they'll have *some* cannon fodder, but it's not ideal. I also like to think that the half brothers are often in charge of these groups.

 

World Eater Cultists: Everything from mobs of bloody handed thugs to loose packs of superlative duelists. Probably also a recruitment ground to an extent, if you're young enough and one of the Legion sees you pull off an impressive kill, you get raised to Astartes.

 

That's a point, how do you guys see recruitment working? I've got some ideas, but I'll need to not be on my phone to type them up.

 

Dragonlover

 

That was kind of how I viewed it as well, if someone in the masses of cultists managed to get lucky and down someone of greater power, they would be considered for Geneseed, though even then I assumed there would be some kind of trial.

[Dammeron]

The Emperor's Children? As enlightened; as free. They have found a means of existing in a universe that otherwise offfers nothing but misery and drudgery that is celebratory and ecstatic; they have learned to take pleasure in the pain, the darkness; the torment that is universal in their particular reality. They are no longer shackled or behold to any parameter; any state of being or operation, intellectual, philosophical or even physical; everything is to be transgressed and transcended. In that, they express a certain metaphysics; a philosophy that is at least as elaborate as one might find in Colchisian (or Sicarian) writings or the occult investigations of the Thousand Sons. They express it somewhat differently; through their flesh and that of others; through their actions and expressions, but it is and has always been more than he rabid carnality that others perceive; that is particularly clear if one reads the Horus Heresy novels centring around them; they achieve their state of abandon not mindlessly, but through slow processes of revelation and transgression, sloughing off old selves and states of operation to inhabit new ones, until every thought and moment is spent in pursuit of that very transcendence.

[Tenebris]

How do I see MY Legion? 

 

In my first post on this topic I wrote about my insights about the traitor legions in a general way. To me the legions are by now shattered, its children bastardized and most of its identity lost or corrupted. It is the "normal" process of evolution, hence "survival" in the Empire of the Eye. It is true and proper that some still cling to the old nomenclatures, ancient traditions, rituals or tactics but this is again "normal" for what else are the posthumans astartes if not creatures of tradition. Every brain cell in their minds was wired in such a way and only trough immense effort one is able to unshackle himself from the notions of blood, legion, faith, allegiance.

 

Which is MY Legion?

 

My legion is my first love in the Warhammer 40k universe, The Thousand Sons. I am a very scholary person in life and I have a tendency to wax philosophical about everything. Also I am in love with all things magic and intellectual. It is only reasonable that I was overtaken by the image of the warrior-scholar that the XVth legion exhibits but because I share so much with their attitude and outlook I feel a sort of kinship with their plight.

 

The Thousand Sons are a legion four times betrayed. The first betrayal came from the Emperor who in his indignity unleashed the Space Wolves, a barbaric and uncouth legion, on what was effectively one of the most perfect and harmonic societies achieved by mankind, an utopia. We all know what led to Prospero and what followed so enter the second betrayal, that of Magnus. Magnus betrayed his children, when they needed him most he closed himself in his sanctuary and despite his claim that he was ruminating on the nature of the Warp he was an absent father figure, which inevitably led to the third betrayal, that of Ahriman. We know the motives behind the Rubic and I understand the plight of the First Librarian, his tragedy was a personal one so his need to stop the Fleshchange was dire. This three betrayals culminated in the Rubic but this was to be the greatest and most sinister of betrayals, that of Tzeentch himself. The goal of the Rubic was achieved in its totality, but the result was a shattered legion that was legion no more.

 

It is on this stage, on this backdrop that I place the personal story of my Sorcerer Lord, of my alter ego and his motley warband of dubious heroes. In this sequence of calamitous events the Thousand Sons were no more, the prominent figures were locked into a dire play for power which left an already shattered legion broken into countless fragments. One of this Sorcerers was a Pavoni, a healer by his calling, a soldier by his geneforged might, a scholar by his soul. Imagine the tragedy of loosing a legion, of being a mere spit in the eye of the Emperor when the Horus Heresy raged, imagine a legion of broken souls and broken automatons waging war unending, war that followed them into the Eye.

 

Hopefully in the future years we will learn more about the Legion Wars but as it stands my warband fought in them, died in them and was ravaged by them. In this indecipherable spiral to madness and kinslaying a ray of hope appeared, Abaddon the Despoiler. Now place yourself in the mind of that poor and scholary soul that is my Sorcerer, imagine that everything he ever had held dear was either destroyed or corrupted, imagine a healer forced to take lives, imagine an intellectual horrified by the things he has to learn in order to survive. No wonder that at the first hope of change my Sorcerer flocked to it like a light starved mite. I have not yet read Talon of Horus but one day I might be able to expand on the role of such a Sorcerer in the Black Legion.

 

Yet here we speak of Legions, not of warbands. But are the Thousand Sons actually a legion, can they even call themselves one? They cannot, for while other legions were shattered in spirit most of their body is still around, they still can feel the warmth or hate of their brothers, they still have living and breathing brothers around, as for the Thousand Sons, their very brotherhood was broken, clad in a ceramite grave, barely a mote of spirit behind. You cannot call brother a golem. You will attempt to communicate with him, but what you get in return is a statue that moves on your whim and little else. 

 

So if there is a legion that is truly broken and lost those are the Thousand Sons. The original Sorcerers of Prospero are few and far between so the only hope for some brotherhood is to either join with another legion or scavenge what little survivors you can and embrace everyone willing to break bread with you. My Sorcerer has chosen to wear the black and the ones he calls brothers are a menagerie of horrors from all the other legions. Ragged survivors, broken souls, iconoclasts, desperate husks of flesh and sinew and eventually cold automatons. That is what means to be a Thousand Son in M41, no longer you have a legion, no longer you have brothers and your only comfort lies in the perilous knowledge you harbour. I think an average Thousand Son shares more kinship and brotherhood with his bound daemons than he ever could with what little brothers he has in flesh, a flesh that is still mutable and treacherous.

 

In the end the concept of "Legion" is quite an ironic thing for the Thousand Sons. A distant dream, a nightmare and an endless font of sorrow, sorrow which can only be quenched by an insane thirst for power and an insatiable appetite for change.  

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

In the end a collection of poets, serial killers, artists, occultists, heroes, and villains who signify the terrible hydra of the post human, bound together as one only because they are all far too strange to live but much too rare to die.

 

 

Dr. Fabius: Let's give the boy a lift.

Capt Raoul : What? No. We can't stop here. This is Night Lords country.

[Loesh]

I was wondering if anyone would get that. :p

[Slave to Darkness]

I've read the book until the spine split and the pages fell out, it would have been criminal if I never got the reference :D

[Loesh]

I'v always liked the Thousand Sons, partially this comes from my like for Sorcerers...though of the Slaaneshi variety more then the Tzeentcian one.

 

This is because I think Sorcerers in Warhammer are so different from other settings, they seek knowledge of course but they are also very strong individuals capable of single combat if need be and boosted by dozens of daemonic pacts in addition to their own potent psyker capabilities. When I think Thousand Sons I more often then not think of Gandalf, the wanderer archetype without a real home who scours the galaxy collecting bits of arcane lore and trinkets.

 

With the Emperors Children I find their sorcerers pretty interesting, Fulgrim while supporting Psykers didn't want them in his legion because of the possibility of gene-defection. As such they had no librarians, yet they did have Sorcerers during the Siege of Terra who helped increase the sensations derived from the population. As such, their Chaos Sorcerers were most likely drawn from the legion members who, on their own in whatever unit, began getting a taste for warpcraft which I find rather unique. I also very much like Slaanesh's school of lore despite Tzeentch being the master of magic, I still remember Fulgrim essentially one-shotting a titan with magic by making it's crews flesh swell so much it ripped the machine apart from the inside.

[Loesh]

A little bit elaboration when it comes to cultists, now that I think about it.

 

I think the reason I like the masses of the Lost and the Damned  supplementing a Chaos Marine army is generally because of how I view leadership: Charisma is everything, I don't believe a Chaos Lord should be about kicking ass, though he should be able. When talking about my own Warband leader, Sigvald, he's not really a melee or ranged power house. He's not a slouch in melee but isn't great at ranged so he often leads from the back, he focuses a lot on buffing and debuffing spells as well as carrying the banner of his warband rather then getting into the thick of things.

 

A Chaos Lord who can actually inspire loyalty amongst an army where there's precious little is a hundred times more scary then a Chaos Lord who is individually a power house, Lorgar may of been the weakest of the Primarchs but look at the tremendous mess he made with words alone. Perhaps this is why I like Slaanesh and Dark Apostles so much.

[Prot]

Didn't Azrael kill Krannon?

 

 

Just as a side note... I thought Krannon was dead too after reading something online. But he's not dead... it's wishful thinking on the part of Turmeil (DA Libby) who 'foresees' Krannon's death at the hands of Balthasar.

[Conn Eremon]

Of all my warbands, I have only developed one to enough of a level to participate in this kind of discussion.

 

Of all the legions, I think the World Eaters have been betrayed the most. They were betrayed by the Imperium, who needed them yet constantly vilified and reviled them. They were betrayed by the Emperor, who cast them at the feet of a broken, damned man and then promptly forgot them. With that one act, He proved that they were nothing more than tools to Him. They were betrayed by their father, who shattered their bonds of brotherhood, the single most important thing to them. A father who loudly spoke of the deaths of tyrants and the breaking of chains, all the while enslaving his sons to insanity. They were betrayed by their brothers, who used them in the guise of aid or camaraderie, pushing the Legion before them over the edge of damnation. And they were betrayed by themselves, when their control slipped more and more, when the brotherhood they tried their damnedest to hold onto, in spite of the efforts of the Emperor, their Primarch, and their fellow Traitors, finally eroded away and was gone forever.

 

Pretty much the only one to not betray the XII is Khorne. Whatever else one can say about the Blood God, he is honest and direct.

 

When it comes to the Warp Warriors, I like to focus on their former Legion identities, and by that I mean the ancient days of yore, whatever the status of these Legions in present day. And the reason for that is that Chaos itself does little for me. The Gods are just not appealing as actual objects of worship or idolatry. It's one of two main reasons why I'm more Imperial than not. The Emperor, right or wrong, good or bad, has that quality that makes me like the idea of believing in him, and so I can better connect with those that do. The other reason is simply that I like the cleaner look of the overall Imperial aesthetic. Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Khorne do little for me. So I mire my Warbands in the past, force them to be trapped by the ghosts of their former lives rather than actively or willingly being a part of their current situations.

 

I intend to develop an Emperor's Children warband next that remains defined by their former relationship with the Iron Hands. Pursuit of perfection, by the elimination of the imperfect. Superiority, through the triumph over the weak.

[Loesh]

Now I tend to find Khorne pretty boring so as you might imagine I don't like World Eaters much, but one thing I DO like is the sort of tribal traditions they maintain(Probably the same reason I like the duelist society of the Palatine Blades.) like, stuff such as the 'Victory Rope' are something I love reading about, and I really, really, REALLY understand why Angron would be unhappy about not being able to add a black rope to his scars as a mark of remembrance rather then shame. Similarly, I liked reading about their attitude towards librarians and how that mixed poorly with their superstitious nature, I consider their fate one of the worst tragedies in the 40k universe.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I would give that roughly one million Loyalist Astartes a disclaimer that it might be ten thousand or more less than that when there are Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, Lamenters and Crimsons Fists running around at severely depleted strength, recent converts like the Crimson Slaughter and Night Reapers who only recently converted within the last decade Chapters like the Crimson Consuls and the Marines Errant who have been effectively wiped out. And those are the famous ones.

There's a flip side to that though, there could just as easily be a few thousand more loyalist marines extant than the 1,000 Chapter estimate would suggest. While you have the devastated and recent Traitors, you also have the isolated, mysterious and undocumented. Chapters like the Charcarodons, who surprised the loyalists at Badab with their existence, and left again for the dark places when the war ended, or the Astral Claws at one point (I think it was them, but I'm not certain, certaibkly a Chapter involved in Badab), believed destroyed, only to resurface in the Imperial Record millennia later. Maybe the negative exceptions outnumber the positives, maybe vice versa, or maybe they balance and the ballpark 1 million figure is accurate enough. Who knows ?

[The Errant]

On the subject of total numbers, I think the rough estimate of one million loyalist Astartes is as good a number as any to hold to, give or take anywhere from ten to fifty thousand, spread across the galaxy. Here's the kicker--the Imperium is the largest contiguous realm in the galaxy, and bears the brunt of aggression from hostile neighbors (most notably the Tyranids, the Necrons and the Chaos space marines but also the Orks, the Eldar, the Tau, and rebels and heretics all over the galaxy). And while the Imperium possesses as a whole more raw military might than any one of these other factions, they have to shift and spread their forces to counter multiple simultaneous threats on a constant basis.

 

For that reason I'm certain there are nowhere near one million Chaos space marines--if there were, they would have made it to Terra long ago. The thing is the Imperium can only afford to pull so many forces away from so many other fronts to deal with them. This is why each faction remains a threat to the Imperium despite having nowhere near the same total size and capability.

 

Least that's my read on it.

 

As for cultists, speaking on behalf of the Alpha Legion I'd say it depends on the warband and the situation. As some above me have said, they could be legit Chaos cultists, carefully cultivated in the years leading up to an operation and set loose at the right time. They could be blood-sworn auxiliary forces that fight alongside the Astartes, as another part of the Legion. They could be candidates for induction to the warband, and these battles their screenings. They could be traitor Guard or PDF. They could be a mix of these things, but I'm certain the Alpha Legion at least would utilize operatives in part or in full.

 

My warband in particular I haven't figured out yet, but one of my early concepts is their Cultists are an IG regiment that was sh pathetic to their cause, subverted from the time of their formation by operatives of the warband. Or something like that. I'll have to give it more thought.

[Trevak Dal]

My core concept for a Warband is that of a bunch of Professional Thieves and Mercenaries that hire themselves out to larger discerning organizations.

[Loesh]

My core concept for a Warband is that of a bunch of Professional Thieves and Mercenaries that hire themselves out to larger discerning organizations.

 

I enjoyed that concept to some degree, a lot of Noise Marines enjoy being paid as mercenaries to the highest bidders. That said, I do usually take the more bound root, a bit ironic for a legion that values individuality so much eh? But I just like the concept of Palatine Blade Assault Marines, Sun Killer heavy weapons guys, and a mainstay of very flexible Noise Marines rather then tactical. Which in a twisted way reflect pre-heresy Emperors Children.

 

To me, it layers on an extra level of mockery between shouting "FOR THE EMPEROR!" while killing Ultramarines and running around with the Imperial Aquilia. 

 

I don't think what a gigantic mockery the Emperors Children are of the Imperium gets enough play, everything they do is a blasphemy to the God Emperor to such a degree that it'd make a Dark Apostle blush. Hell, my Warband has roaring blades members who go out to fight alongside the cultists in a mockery of how the Righteous Blades were the one of the only Space Marines to fight beside the Imperial Guard during the great crusade.

[Loesh]

Something else I was thinking about, how do you guys view Legion Champions?: Which is to say, people like Khârn, Typhus, Ahirman, and Lucius.

 

A lot of people tend to feel Lucius is a tremendous failure as an Emperors Children champion, something I find is one of the biggest misunderstandings of 40k canon(In my personal opinion.) it's easy to look at his character and say this characters whole stick revolves around losing, therefore he sucks.

 

Yes, Lucius has been beaten in a straight up fight before which casts some doubt on him being the greatest non-primarch swordsman in the galaxy, but I think it's important to look at the circumstances of the loss. The most infamous one was of course where he seemingly, actually died, but given that it was a result of fighting Nykona 'I don't use the floor' Sharrowkyn I think it's worth a pass, similarly his loss during the Scarlet Blade when fighting Cyrius wasn't merely because Lucius was a worse swordsman, but because his blade couldn't actually penetrate the other Lord Commanders armor where Lucius was wearing a tunic. This reflects Lucius style, often he isn't fighting his all...if he's fighting chumps, he'll fight like a chump because he's bored, it's only when he get's a challenge that he actually goes all out.

 

Similarly yes Gaven punched him in the face to win a match, but Lucius won their rematch, Sanakhet may of been tossing out fighting tips mockingly during their dual but he actually lost that fight despite sorcerers not predicting his defeat. 

 

I remember one of the coolest things I ever read from an Emperors Children member came from Lucius being hunted down by Oros Telemar as the Iron Hands were purging the Herevok sector, he effortlessly cut down Telemars bodyguards and then they engaged in a game of cat and mouse for seven days and seven nights, finally Telemar struck him down and took his whip and saber as trophies. Having no knowledge of his gift, Lucius took control of Telemars body onboard his ship, grabbed his weapons and proceeded to kill every single person onboard the ship and then taking a pod out into the immaterium.

 

The Iron Hands continue to be absolutely baffled by Lucius later appearances, all in all I find that pretty awesome.

[Marshal Rohr]

While not quite as serious, I always thought of Khârn massacring his way through an enemy, appearing ferocious and insane on the outside, but in reality his communion with Khorne is so pure that he is in a state of happiness and has no clue what's going on around him.