How do you see your Legion?

[Loesh]

While not quite as serious, I always thought of Khârn massacring his way through an enemy, appearing ferocious and insane on the outside, but in reality his communion with Khorne is so pure that he is in a state of happiness and has no clue what's going on around him.

 

Well I do hear he's a pretty swell guy.

[Conn Eremon]

While not quite as serious, I always thought of Khârn massacring his way through an enemy, appearing ferocious and insane on the outside, but in reality his communion with Khorne is so pure that he is in a state of happiness and has no clue what's going on around him.

I'm walking on sunshine! Whoa-o-oh!

 

And don't it feel good!

[incinerator950]

It was shown that Khârn still maintains a deep mental cognition in his short story.

 

As for named characters, I view them as boss fights but with a lot of plot armor.

[Kol Saresk]

I really liked his depiction in Chosen of Khorne. One minute he's perfectly calm, the next he is having visions of slaughter, and then constantly switches back and forth, back and forth, with the rarest of instances he is thinking that he is having a vision and awakens to find that his vision, had actually been real. And he just doesn't care.

[Loesh]

It was shown that Khârn still maintains a deep mental cognition in his short story.

 

As for named characters, I view them as boss fights but with a lot of plot armor.

 

Maybe that's kind of why I like Lucius, he doesn't have that plot armor...or rather to be more accurate, the plot armor in his character has been incorporated in a way that actually makes him more interesting, often the flaws can make characters more meaningful.

 

Which isn't to say Khârn as a total Mary Sue or anything, he has very real flaws in his character. Despite how much ass they kick, Angron and Khârn are easily they two most pitiable men in the setting in my book, individuals who largely blame others for their failings, and while sometimes those individuals are to blame they cannot get over it and accept who they are, Khârn has gone mad from the revelation and all Angron truly wanted was to die.

 

But back on Lucius, if he never lost to Gaviel Loken then winning his rematch would of been that much less awesome, his fight with Oros when you think about it is the story of his ultimate defeat, but him bouncing back from it and bouncing back in a way that happens to lay waste to a ship in a profoundly horrifying way. Sharrowkyn is his most cited failing, but were it not for Sharrowkyn Lucius he wouldn't have had nearly much emotion in fighting Sanakht to recover his wounded pride. Does it matter that he never beat Sharrowkyn personally? i'd lobby not, Sanakht was probably an equal or better swordsman then the Raven Guard line trooper, yet Lucius overwhelmed him in the end, you can make a character cool without winning every fight and beating every rival to a pulp.

[Tyrannicide]

While not quite as serious, I always thought of Khârn massacring his way through an enemy, appearing ferocious and insane on the outside, but in reality his communion with Khorne is so pure that he is in a state of happiness and has no clue what's going on around him.

I would love to see this brought to life in motion picture directed by Nicolas Winding Refn.

[Loesh]

You know come to think of it, I found a rather strange reason I like Lucius that factors into the overall discussion: He's not a Noise Marine.

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Noise Marines, I love Sonic Dreadnoughts, and I love sonic terminators. But I really like the Flickering and Roaring Blades, Emperors Children organizations dedicated to close combat and my most prominent Slaaneshi character is a Slaaneshi Chaos Sorcerer, a group of Emperors Children that didn't even pop up until the Siege of Terra.

 

I don't like the concept of most Death Guard being Plague Marines and Blight Mages, or most Thousand Sons Rubrics and the rest sorcerers, or certainly not all World Eaters being Bezerkers. The Emperors Children have cult troops, but they are not defined by their cult troops, if they have something heavy they need to bring down the warband might have Sun Killers still hanging around with Lascannons, if they need to be up close and personal the two groups I mentioned above are more then happy to be assault marines, Its a flexibility with characters I enjoy. 

[incinerator950]

One of the early incarnations of my Putrefactors Warband was to originally make them non Death Guard pms who found their own enlightenment.

[Loesh]

One of the early incarnations of my Putrefactors Warband was to originally make them non Death Guard pms who found their own enlightenment.

 

That...actually sounds pretty cool.

 

Expanding on my earlier point a bit, the main reason I think of the Emperors Children as a semi-organized force is because(And I may be completely wrong on this.) that I take the term 'Shattered Legion' very lightly, I do not take that to mean most...or even many of them are dead, but rather their command structure has broken down and they now operate independently of one another to varying extents, meaning they aren't all lone groups of soldiers and are perfectly capable of mounted offensives when need be or they are under the command of a potent Chaos Lord.

 

For example while many Warbands are only at company strength, during the siege of Lugganath hundreds of Noise Marines were present as were enough Chaos Sorcerers to cloak both them and their entire fleet from being detected, that's a scale of 'Entire planets die and armies collapse when they get in the way' sized warband. Emperors Children are rare to see, except when they aren't. Emperors Children don't come in large numbers....except when they do. and Emperors Children can't threaten most of the Imperium...until a big enough Chaos Lord comes along and they can.

[incinerator950]

Yes well, ironically the step backwards in the right direction makes it harder to make PMs without easier access to DG or BL sorcs. So in 4th I remade them as Deathguard.

[Kol Saresk]

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

What good is a doctor with no patients? A scholar in a universe that praises ignorance and enlightenment brings insainity?
For the former cheif apothecary of the Thousand sons, one who was part of the cabal that aided in the rubric, their is only the humiliation from the greatest triumph and yet most terrible mistake the legion made after the burning of Prospero.
There is also that, the hunger for vengeance on the sons of Russ, hypocrites all, the hilarity of the soft, caring "Honourable" façade the thin blooded whelps of Fenris maintain now.
A reckoning shall too be had against those liars and cheats who used Nikea to slander us, to discredit all our work in their small minded ignorance.
But most of all, he who's mere mention causes a hatred that reduces all to ash, one that doomed the legion, the one's blemish must be wiped away to restore the honour of the sons of Prospero and pay for her sacking.
Magnus shall pay.

[Loesh]

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

 

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

Personally, I feel that this isn't just the case for us fans, but it is true in-universe as well.

 

The Legions are extinct. And they are not extinct.

 

The Legions exist as disorganized collectives. And they exist only as a long-dead concept.

 

The Legion Wars killed the Legions. And it remolded them into something new.

 

For some, to say you are a Death Guard, or an Emperor's Children, or whatever Traitor Legion, means nothing anymore. For others, it's more important now than it ever was.

[Loesh]

 

 

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

Personally, I feel that this isn't just the case for us fans, but it is true in-universe as well.

 

The Legions are extinct. And they are not extinct.

 

The Legions exist as disorganized collectives. And they exist only as a long-dead concept.

 

The Legion Wars killed the Legions. And it remolded them into something new.

 

For some, to say you are a Death Guard, or an Emperor's Children, or whatever Traitor Legion, means nothing anymore. For others, it's more important now than it ever was.

 

 

Must be confusing as all hell for the Imperium, for most of the time they only see small warbands and tiny groups of World Eaters and Emperors Children usually are seen working with other larger groups and they conclude they must of been destroyed, only reinforced or confused by various reports that people like Eidolen and Lucius have died(Likely not knowing the latter can't die and the former is good at vanishing, if they are aware he exists at all.) and the World Eaters flagship being taken over by a rival warband as the Conqueror once again changes hands. Then the Eye of Terror just vomits up a massive fleet of them into realspace to rain down hell.

 

Then they shatter and flee back to space when finally overwhelmed, and they go under the same assumption for a couple hundred years before it suddenly happens again. All the way up to the 13th Black Crusade where the Cadian Gate is breached and now massive warhosts of them are all over the place.

 

I would imagine being logistics in the Imperium right now is a complete nightmare.

[A D-B]

 

 

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

Personally, I feel that this isn't just the case for us fans, but it is true in-universe as well.

 

The Legions are extinct. And they are not extinct.

 

The Legions exist as disorganized collectives. And they exist only as a long-dead concept.

 

The Legion Wars killed the Legions. And it remolded them into something new.

 

For some, to say you are a Death Guard, or an Emperor's Children, or whatever Traitor Legion, means nothing anymore. For others, it's more important now than it ever was.

 

 

Perfect.

 

 

 

 

 

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

Personally, I feel that this isn't just the case for us fans, but it is true in-universe as well.

 

The Legions are extinct. And they are not extinct.

 

The Legions exist as disorganized collectives. And they exist only as a long-dead concept.

 

The Legion Wars killed the Legions. And it remolded them into something new.

 

For some, to say you are a Death Guard, or an Emperor's Children, or whatever Traitor Legion, means nothing anymore. For others, it's more important now than it ever was.

 

 

Must be confusing as all hell for the Imperium, for most of the time they only see small warbands and tiny groups of World Eaters and Emperors Children usually are seen working with other larger groups and they conclude they must of been destroyed, only reinforced or confused by various reports that people like Eidolen and Lucius have died(Likely not knowing the latter can't die and the former is good at vanishing, if they are aware he exists at all.) and the World Eaters flagship being taken over by a rival warband as the Conqueror once again changes hands. Then the Eye of Terror just vomits up a massive fleet of them into realspace to rain down hell.

 

Then they shatter and flee back to space when finally overwhelmed, and they go under the same assumption for a couple hundred years before it suddenly happens again. All the way up to the 13th Black Crusade where the Cadian Gate is breached and now massive warhosts of them are all over the place.

 

I would imagine being logistics in the Imperium right now is a complete nightmare.

 

 

40K is awesome.

[Loesh]

I really do like this thread, I feel like it's going a long way in understanding/hammering out our views of the Traitor Legions.

 

Plus is gives me a chance to just ramble about the Emperors Children whenever a errant thought strikes my mind, which I love to do. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Loesh: That is exactly what the term "Shattered Legion" means. Not that the Legions no longer exist at all, just that there is either so little cohesion or a strenous cohesion at best that for all intents and purposes, the organization is no longer there. Sure, one or two like the Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors have ruling councils, but those councils are just as ignored as they are listened to. Heck, the Council of Sicarus just had a recent internal spat that resulted in two of its members dead, IIRC.

Heh, fair enough. It's just most people seem to take the term 'Shattered Legion' and take it to mean both disorganized and on the verge of extinction.

Personally, I feel that this isn't just the case for us fans, but it is true in-universe as well.

 

The Legions are extinct. And they are not extinct.

 

The Legions exist as disorganized collectives. And they exist only as a long-dead concept.

 

The Legion Wars killed the Legions. And it remolded them into something new.

 

For some, to say you are a Death Guard, or an Emperor's Children, or whatever Traitor Legion, means nothing anymore. For others, it's more important now than it ever was.

Must be confusing as all hell for the Imperium, for most of the time they only see small warbands and tiny groups of World Eaters and Emperors Children usually are seen working with other larger groups and they conclude they must of been destroyed, only reinforced or confused by various reports that people like Eidolen and Lucius have died(Likely not knowing the latter can't die and the former is good at vanishing, if they are aware he exists at all.) and the World Eaters flagship being taken over by a rival warband as the Conqueror once again changes hands. Then the Eye of Terror just vomits up a massive fleet of them into realspace to rain down hell.

 

Then they shatter and flee back to space when finally overwhelmed, and they go under the same assumption for a couple hundred years before it suddenly happens again. All the way up to the 13th Black Crusade where the Cadian Gate is breached and now massive warhosts of them are all over the place.

 

I would imagine being logistics in the Imperium right now is a complete nightmare.

This is something that still confuses me.

 

At 999.999.M41 is Cadia overrun? Or is the 13th Black Crusade just beginning? Some of the timelines say the fighting begins on Cadia at 995.M41 which is only 2-3 days before M42 begins and not enough time to fight through Cadia.

[Conn Eremon]

This is something that still confuses me.

 

At 999.999.M41 is Cadia overrun? Or is the 13th Black Crusade just beginning? Some of the timelines say the fighting begins on Cadia at 995.M41 which is only 2-3 days before M42 begins and not enough time to fight through Cadia.

Five years isn't enough time to fight through Cadia with a force that is supposed to overrun Terra?

[Marshal Rohr]

Sorry, 995.999.M41.

[Loesh]

I think Cadia is overrun at this point, but I could be wrong.

 

I think the way i'm starting to see(See what I did there?) the Chaos Legions outside of the Black Legion are as a sort of weird curve-ball that Chaos can throw at the Imperium, utilizing weapons and tactics that make the Imperium go "What the hell?!" 

 

Going into the background fluff there are a lot of cool toys the mono-legions get that, even if not represented on the tabletop right now, would baffle an Imperial army. Among other cool things i'v found with the Emperors Children: Sonic Dreadnoughts, Sonic Terminators, Noise Marines that have made slaves into walking sound beacons, Noise Marines that have started to jam all sorts of weird alien tech into their weapons and armor, Noise Marines that can apparently combine the power of their weapons into a massive *psychic attack*, close combat specialists covered in shrieking blood drinking mouths, close combat specialists that get substantially more dangerous the closer to death they are,  Warhound Titans mutated into some weird scorpion hybrids, and unit formations that can cause reality to violently rebel just by moving in a certain way with the proper occult rituals.

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Forté]

I'm going to sound really sad here. But I love how this topic is going. Just seeing how others view current "Legion" organisations, or lack of, has really altered my way of thinking about how a 40k army should be. Even to the point of losing my disappointments over the lack of proper Legion rules.

 

Though I now want those outlandish Slaanesh units you speak of Loesh. Purely because they sound fun :D

[Loesh]

I'm going to sound really sad here. But I love how this topic is going. Just seeing how others view current "Legion" organisations, or lack of, has really altered my way of thinking about how a 40k army should be. Even to the point of losing my disappointments over the lack of proper Legion rules.

Though I now want those outlandish Slaanesh units you speak of Loesh. Purely because they sound fun

Yeah I know right? Sorting through the fluff, I actually found the Emperors Children(And presumably the other mono-god legions.) actually have access to tons of weird and unique equipment that they get to play around with that the Children of Torment/Red Cosairs might find hard, if not impossible to get.

So it wasn't really that the Emperors Children had been diluted, it just that we don't have the legion rules to reflect those kind of things in the fluff.

[incinerator950]

It is refreshing to see them as viewpoints on bothsides instead of what GW has proverbially tried to do.

[Forté]

It is refreshing to see them as viewpoints on bothsides instead of what GW has proverbially tried to do.

It certainly is.