How do you see your Legion?

[Loesh]

It is refreshing to see them as viewpoints on bothsides instead of what GW has proverbially tried to do.

 

I think if I have a problem with Games Workshops handling of the Legions, it's that I think the Primarchs should have way more to do with realspace. But in this case it's more a want of how I see my legion then how I actually do, the Primarchs being tied up in the great game has been around since forever for better or worse.

[Loesh]

OH! and while we were on the subject, I think the most cool obscure Slaaneshi thing I found was the Pleasurereaper of Slaanesh.

 

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/dvdhwk/PLeasurereaper.jpg

 

What happens when Slaanesh gets ahold of the baneblade, much like it's more popularized Nurglite brother. Twin hull mounted heavy bolters, a demolisher cannon, twin linked heavy bolters on either side along with two blastmasters, and a sonic cannon.

 

Also a pipe organ that blasts everything around it with sound, because Slaanesh doesn't have enough weaponized pipe organs.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

This is something that still confuses me.

 

At 999.999.M41 is Cadia overrun? Or is the 13th Black Crusade just beginning? Some of the timelines say the fighting begins on Cadia at 995.M41 which is only 2-3 days before M42 begins and not enough time to fight through Cadia.

 

 

 

I think Cadia is overrun at this point, but I could be wrong.

 

Cadia is pretty much definitely not overrun at the stopping of the clock in the current fluff incarnation. There has not been any mention (that I'm aware of) of any conclusion to the war, it's pretty much just warming up. We have the Chaos book saying the Traitors are trying to push to Terra, but haven't got past Cadia yet; "Abaddon is throwing his might into the Cadian Gate", "Imperial forces counter-attack, but there seems to be no end to the forces of the Dark Gods". The Guard book (iirc, don't have it to hand) says something similar, though obviously more Imperial-biased, with Creed masterminding the counter assault, inflicting great destruction on the forces of Chaos. Then there's the Wolves dex where "The Cadian Gate is attacked on a system-wide front (do they mean sector here?, stupid scale inconsistencies)...Upon his arrival, the Old Wolf assumes the mantle of supreme commander of the Imperium's forces and prepares for what threatens to be the deadliest war since the Horus Heresy".

 

So yeah, I'd say there's a decent level of consensus across the various dexes here. Cadia, though under attack, still stands, and the war is only beginning...

[Loesh]

Breached then, the Traitor Legions have broken through and are filtering into other parts of the Imperium en mass.

[Tenebris]

I consider Cadia bypassed by the outrunner elements of the Chaos forces. I think that if there is fighting there it is because the Cadian Pylons need to be destroyed but overall I don't see an average Chaos Lord blunting his precious army on the single most fortified planet in the Imperium after Terra. Also in proper Chaos fashion those who have the thankless task to break Cadia are far from favoured by their lords and legions. 

[Kol Saresk]

Enough of the space before the Cadian Gate has been either taken over by Chaos or simply breached that Cadia in and of itself is a single outpost.

 

Even then, the state of Cadia is that the space above is contested with Imperial fleets holding the high ground while Cadia itself belings to the Lost and the Damned, with the exception of a single fortress.

 

That is the current standing of the fluff. Cadia itself is on the brink off falling. But the Cadian Gate is broken.

 

What has happened is that the focus of the background has shifted. Instead of focusing just on the breaking of the Cadian Gate, it has taken to showing how much preparation has gone ito the 13th Black crusade and that the Crusades were never about the taking of the Cadian Gate, as much of the fandom has always believed. In essence, the EoT campaign wasn't the entirety of the Last Black Crusade, but rather was D-Day of World War II; an entire warfront meant to create a foothold from which to launch further attacks within the overall war.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Breached then, the Traitor Legions have broken through and are filtering into other parts of the Imperium en mass.

 

Again no, even in the Chaos dex, there isn't any mention of the gate being breached. Engulfed in war, yes, breached, no. Any Chaos forces spilling out into the wider Imperium during the fighting thus far would appear to be small, precedented escapes. Hence the bit from the Wolf book, the crusade 'currently' only threatens to be the deadliest since the HH, it's not at that point yet (whereas, if Cadia was breached, that'd be a lot more serious business than what is stated).

 

I consider Cadia bypassed by the outrunner elements of the Chaos forces. I think that if there is fighting there it is because the Cadian Pylons need to be destroyed but overall I don't see an average Chaos Lord blunting his precious army on the single most fortified planet in the Imperium after Terra. Also in proper Chaos fashion those who have the thankless task to break Cadia are far from favoured by their lords and legions. 

One thing that bothers me about that sort of interpretation (apart form the whole 'destroy the pylons' thing, my objections to which aren't really on topic atm). If bypassing the Gate (which, remember, is far larger than merely the Cadian system itself) was that easy, what is the point of the Gate and its defences to begin with?

 

Plus, it appears the "average Chaos Lord" isn't being given much choice in the matter, assuming he isn't going to flat out defy Abaddon. "Those Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters who have sworn allegiance to the Warmaster are forming the vanguard of the invasion, a broad-headed spear to plunge deep into the heart of the Cadian system. Abaddon care little how many casualties are amassed on each side". It looks like Abby's going all in, everyone's being thrown into the teeth of the Gate.

 

That is the current standing of the fluff. Cadia itself is on the brink off falling. But the Cadian Gate is broken.

 

Have you got a source for that? Because as I've outlined, there's nothing in any current codex to suggest the Gate is broken or that Cadia is on the brink of falling, merely that the war around the Eye is just warming up.

[Kol Saresk]

It's called the Eye of Terror campaign. It hasn't been retconned, the focused has merely changed. If everyone recalls, there was still fighting on Cadia even though Chaos won the campaign. What does the Codex say? It says there is fighting on Cadia. Nothing has been retconned. The focus has simply been shifted while the scope of the 13th Crusade has been expanded from just Cadian Gate, to the entire Crimson Path. Which would make the charge for the Cadian Gate, the beginning of the 13th Black Crusade.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Hasn't been retconned? I disagree. There's more than enough alterations to the events of that Campaign to render the entire thing 'non-canon'. Medusa hasn't been invaded (as I'd expect the Iron Hand's fluff to at least mention this, as the White Scar's fluff does with Huron's attack on Chogoris), Eldrad isn't dead, none of the Necrons actions are consistent with their new 'Space Tomb Kings' fluff, Ahriman hasn't breached the webway (his fluff is back to/still the same as it was before EoT 'turned his energies to locating the Black Library'). It really looks to me like they've rolled the clock back, which tbh I didn't think was in question.

 

Or better yet, another quote from Codex:CSM (Abaddon's entry): "Possession of the Cadian Gate - the only stable path from the Eye of Terror - hangs in the balance". That just doesn't sound like a broken gate to me.

[Artein]

I like the idea that through the Imperium circles a rumour that Cadia is overrun. Is it really? Should we believe it? Maybe it's just a piece of heretical propaganda. Or maybe the mighty bastion have fallen and the forces of hell are coming for the rest of us. We are doomed. Or maybe not yet.

[incinerator950]

Under attack to contested, only been saying it for four damn years.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Siege of Cadia would make an amazing novel series, is why I ask. If it was moved back on the timeline to the beginning of 999 it would be plenty of time for Cadia to fall. Then adjust the timeline so that on 995999.M41 the Imperial defenders are routed and chaos has begun to travel onward.

[Loesh]

Hasn't been retconned? I disagree. There's more than enough alterations to the events of that Campaign to render the entire thing 'non-canon'. Medusa hasn't been invaded (as I'd expect the Iron Hand's fluff to at least mention this, as the White Scar's fluff does with Huron's attack on Chogoris), Eldrad isn't dead, none of the Necrons actions are consistent with their new 'Space Tomb Kings' fluff, Ahriman hasn't breached the webway (his fluff is back to/still the same as it was before EoT 'turned his energies to locating the Black Library'). It really looks to me like they've rolled the clock back, which tbh I didn't think was in question.

 

Or better yet, another quote from Codex:CSM (Abaddon's entry): "Possession of the Cadian Gate - the only stable path from the Eye of Terror - hangs in the balance". That just doesn't sound like a broken gate to me.

 

Eh, those things I think were just necessary to the setting really, well some of those things. I'm not sure if Medusa is decanonized just because it wasn't there or that Newcrons aren't fluffy(The likely answer to the latter is it depends on which background you like more.) but Eldrad and Ahirman are fan favorites which makes them fairly resistant to alteration, and Cadia does still need to be broken so the Eye of Terror can expand past the Necron Pylons, so I imagine a lot of fighting is still front and center there. 

 

So I tend to work under the assumption EoT is still canon, which isn't at all bad mind you. It gives a broader range of settings to fight between the Imperium and the forces of Chaos.

[Marshal Rohr]

When it comes to the campaign results, the safest bet is to assume it never happened. My concern was more along the lines that we know Cadia get broken open, but will it happen in the Abaddon series and remain unaddressed in future publications? Or will the new chaos codex next summer expand more on the sequence of events. I think it's important to remember that the Cadian models are the standard IG army, and destroying their home world wouldn't make sense, as new IG players get turned off by the idea that their hyper militarized space Spartans lost and only scattered survivors remain.

[Loesh]

When it comes to the campaign results, the safest bet is to assume it never happened. My concern was more along the lines that we know Cadia get broken open, but will it happen in the Abaddon series and remain unaddressed in future publications? Or will the new chaos codex next summer expand more on the sequence of events. I think it's important to remember that the Cadian models are the standard IG army, and destroying their home world wouldn't make sense, as new IG players get turned off by the idea that their hyper militarized space Spartans lost and only scattered survivors remain.

 

Fair enough, though ADB would have better insight...if even then...then I would, i'd be interested to hear it anyway.

 

On topic though, I think another reason I like the Emperors Children is because their model colors can both be bright and eye watering, but also dark and sinister depending on the character and Warband in question. In particular I liked how this guy looks:

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/c9/Jihar.jpg

 

Chaos Lord that led a failed Black Crusade into the Gloom Worlds, though to be fair he used a fleet so small the Imperium didn't even notice and relied mostly on Abhuman and Mutant soldiers.

[Kol Saresk]

A D-B has stated on numerous occasions(I would hazard as a proffessional employee[or at least paid] of GW) that the Cadian Gate is broken open.

 

Hence why I choose to read it that the focus has shifted to back before the 13th Campaign, but that the campaign itself has still very much happened and that the results are still good; ie Chaos won.

[Loesh]

A D-B has stated on numerous occasions(I would hazard as a proffessional employee[or at least paid] of GW) that the Cadian Gate is broken open.

 

Hence why I choose to read it that the focus has shifted to back before the 13th Campaign, but that the campaign itself has still very much happened and that the results are still good; ie Chaos won.

 

Ah got it, again, new. :p

[A D-B]

A D-B has stated on numerous occasions(I would hazard as a proffessional employee[or at least paid] of GW) that the Cadian Gate is broken open.

 

Hence why I choose to read it that the focus has shifted to back before the 13th Campaign, but that the campaign itself has still very much happened and that the results are still good; ie Chaos won.

 

Sort of. That was ostensibly the result of the campaign, and it's interesting to note it, but the campaign itself was over a decade and a half ago and practically never mentioned again anywhere official... which shows exactly how much it matters. I'm all-in on the notion that 40K is set in the Dark Millennium, at whatever point you choose, but that the future history of the setting goes all the way to the gearing up / beginning of the 13th Black Crusade and the commencement of the Crimson Path, as noted in 6th and 7th edition releases.

 

My official answer on the 13th Black Crusade is essentially "It doesn't matter right now and I don't care. If it changes, it will matter and I'll totally care."

 

I was playing at the time and I loved the vibrancy that the store campaign brought to the hobby, but I have no wish to be bound to the results of a chaotic (little-C) store campaign, when the official results have been largely overlooked for over fifteen years, and were conflicted and dubious even when said results were published. It was a fun campaign. I'm cool to leave it at that, unless something more comes from it in the future. 

[Loesh]

 

A D-B has stated on numerous occasions(I would hazard as a proffessional employee[or at least paid] of GW) that the Cadian Gate is broken open.

 

Hence why I choose to read it that the focus has shifted to back before the 13th Campaign, but that the campaign itself has still very much happened and that the results are still good; ie Chaos won.

 

Sort of. That was ostensibly the result of the campaign, and it's interesting to note it, but the campaign itself was over a decade ago and practically never mentioned again anywhere official., which shows exactly how much it matters. I'm all-in on the notion that 40K is set in the Dark Millennium, at whatever point you choose, but that the future history of the setting goes all the way to the gearing up / beginning of the 13th Black Crusade and the commencement of the Crimson Path, as noted in 6th and 7th edition releases.

 

My official answer on the 13th Black Crusade is essentially "It doesn't matter and I don't care. If it changes, it will matter and I'll totally care."

 

I was playing at the time and I loved the vibrancy that the store campaign brought to the hobby, but I have no wish to be bound to the results of a chaotic (little-C) store campaign, when the official results have been largely overlooked for over ten years, and were conflicted and dubious even when said results were published. It was a fun campaign. I'm cool to leave it at that, unless something more comes from it in the future. 

 

 

Fair enough, and it's a bit like how I view 40k as well. When these battles happen isn't in a bubble, it merely happens just about when everythings going to hit the fan. Tyranids are invading, the Necrons are waking up from their sleep, the Tau are starting to grow as a power, the Eldar are on the last of their last legs even as they try to change the fate of the universe, and humanities sins have come to roost in the form of Chaos. One way or another, they are going to at least get through Cadia and cause terror to the greater Imperium, everything has come down to this.

 

Over the last ten thousand years the various Chaos forces have been plotting and planning, waging a much smaller scale raids in preparation for this, their holy war. Geneseed stolen from Imperial forces, direct attacks on critical imperial cities, the planting of hundreds of thousand of Chaos Cults throughout the countless numbers of humanity. Now it's here and they are knocking on the Emperors door, they are going to do some damage and they just won't settle for breaking even.

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough. Point conceded.

[Loesh]

So, since the Black Crusade supplement came up earlier, I think I should talk about cultists again.

 

I don't know why but, as the mainstay of a Slaaneshi force outside of any rabble rousing they cause, I REALLY like the idea of Slaaneshi pirates and their human followers being pirates as well. In the Tome of Excess they gave a rather delightful overview on what it's like to be a pirate prince and it's amazing, it was about then that I knew that...while Cultists shrieking praises to the Dark Gods has it's appeal...the idea of an organized military force with fleet capabilities and a strong emphasis on plunder made a pretty cool dynamic. While they are most certainly depraved individuals I felt they were a lot more subtle then the typical shrieking madman you might find with the Word Bearers, though still having quirks(Like almost all of them having some insane OCD that they must constantly fulfill.) and being a much more credible threat as they tend to be very well equipped in comparison to most humans in the setting.

[Tenebris]

On the Cultist part as a Tzeentchian at heart I don't consider them all that special, or useful or unique, mostly because their downfall was planned way before even the first sermon or illuminated text were given to them. I like how they are portrayed in Talon of Horus, a clear meritocracy, the useful ones are on top, the useless are expendable. Each is worth something, but that something is usually a very specific thing or purpose. 

[Loesh]

On the Cultist part as a Tzeentchian at heart I don't consider them all that special, or useful or unique, mostly because their downfall was planned way before even the first sermon or illuminated text were given to them. I like how they are portrayed in Talon of Horus, a clear meritocracy, the useful ones are on top, the useless are expendable. Each is worth something, but that something is usually a very specific thing or purpose. 

 

Well now i'll have to get ahold of the Talon of Horus, we so rarely get into see a Cultists life.

 

The only other one I can think of is the Word Bearers Omnibus, and with no disrespect to the author their portrayal there is stereotypical expendable regardless of who it is(Though they did give the Imperial Army a run for their money when they popped up.)

[Tenebris]

Well in Talon of Horus the more appropriate term would be "slaves" or "crew" but eventually they all end as part of a some sort of cult. My view of the humble cultists is actually on the line with bolter shells, food rations, parchment, machine parts. Without them a chaos warband has a very tough time, yet at the same time they are expendable for their chaos space marine overlords. But I still think that their lives are not expended that easily as are conscripts, guardsmen or fighting men and women of the Imperium. In the end a chaos warband has to raid planets for this mass of laborers and followers and it has to invest time and material in acquiring them, so strange as it seems they are actually in a better spot than many of their imperial counterparts. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The meritocracy passage made me imagine a warband based on Atlas Shrugged.