Some thoughts on the new flyers.

[knife&fork]

Since I've now had a couple of games both on the giving and receiving end I'd like to share my experiences.

My initial thought when reading the rules was that the storm wolf was the superior choice by far as a gunship. That still stands and I would be hard pressed to ever recommend a SW player to go with the fang as the only flyer in a list.

Storm wolf:

+ A beast with the TLLC and 2*MM. Easily the most powerful flyer in the game (not counting FW).

+ Great deployment option for many units.

+ Sits low on the base for easy, non jink, cover saves.

- Expensive!

- Not good as a dedicated transport for anything but throw away squads of blood claws or similar. Same issue as the storm raven really.

- Firing arcs are seriously narrow. If you want to fire both TL-MMs at a smallish target you only have a few inches worth of practical melta range!

- Sits low on the base, enemy units can get cover more easily and sometimes it's difficult to draw LoS (compared to other flyers).

Storm Fang:

+ OK as a second flyer, best focused on infantry hunting. TL-HBs are vastly superior to sky hammer missiles.

+ Some players are intimidated by the large blast.

+ Far easier to use all the weapons, movement is easier to plan compared to Storm wolf.

+ Doesn't have to be played quite as aggressively as the Storm Wolf, no need to jink as often.

- Expensive and not good as your only flyer.

- Loses it's main appeal when forced to jink.

- Similar LoS and cover issues as the Storm Wolf.

In conclusion I must say that the storm **** release is one the better ones we've seen in recent times from GW. I personally like the model and the rules make it powerful but fairly priced. Both variations have some advantages and drawback that makes them interesting to play, compared to the 'good at everything' units that just zap the fun out of a match.

Well done and congrats to SW for the best (non broken) flyer in the game!

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks for sharing. Good to see someone else enjoying the design of those flyers ;)

 

Though calling it the best is a bit of a stretch. The best at what? AA? Close call, I do not think it is superior to 2 night scythes spamming S7 (almost equivalent cost) since jink is very strong against low amount of shots.

Best at AT? I'll buy that.

Best at AI? Hell no!

Best assault transport? Possibly.

[skeletoro]

I just played a doubles tournament on the weekend where I took two storm wolves with passengers as my contingent.

 

I haven't played a lot of tournaments and didn't realise that it's rare to get much past turn 2-3. For such short games, they're a pretty crappy unit because they hardly get a chance to do anything! I did roll very poorly on my reserves rolls, however, with maybe 12 of the 20 or so reserves rolls I made coming up 1 or 2. It was pretty exasperating.

 

That said, it's an amazing unit. It is extremely powerful. Although I got unlucky with reserve rolls, my fliers managed to do a lot of damage to enemy units while they were on the board. I probably tallied up a dozen vehicle kills. In the game I played vs tyranids, my storm wolf (if I remember correctly, the other one never arrived and the game only lasted 3 turns) managed to kill a hive crone with the helfrost special rule and stripped most of the wounds off one of those gaunt spawning MCs, too.

 

I tend to agree that the best transport application is probably for a smallish cheap unit of blood claws. 10 and a flamer seems relatively inexpensive. I am not sure there's much point taking 5 blood claws as they won't have the oomph to effectively assault much. I think if taking 5 models, I'd take grey hunters - they have a bit more flexibility as they can occupy an objective and still do something with their bolters. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I just played a doubles tournament on the weekend where I took two storm wolves with passengers as my contingent.

 

I haven't played a lot of tournaments and didn't realise that it's rare to get much past turn 2-3. For such short games, they're a pretty crappy unit because they hardly get a chance to do anything! I did roll very poorly on my reserves rolls, however, with maybe 12 of the 20 or so reserves rolls I made coming up 1 or 2. It was pretty exasperating.

 

That said, it's an amazing unit. It is extremely powerful. Although I got unlucky with reserve rolls, my fliers managed to do a lot of damage to enemy units while they were on the board. I probably tallied up a dozen vehicle kills. In the game I played vs tyranids, my storm wolf (if I remember correctly, the other one never arrived and the game only lasted 3 turns) managed to kill a hive crone with the helfrost special rule and stripped most of the wounds off one of those gaunt spawning MCs, too.

 

I tend to agree that the best transport application is probably for a smallish cheap unit of blood claws. 10 and a flamer seems relatively inexpensive. I am not sure there's much point taking 5 blood claws as they won't have the oomph to effectively assault much. I think if taking 5 models, I'd take grey hunters - they have a bit more flexibility as they can occupy an objective and still do something with their bolters. 

 

My point exactly. Due to the increased turn length in 7ed, many players have switched to alpha strike armies to speed up the gameplay at tournaments. For this reason, anything but guaranteed reserves (or very view reserves) are somewhat risky and a turn 3 charge borderline useless. If you know, that the game will last much longer though, SW is a damn solid pick.

[skeletoro]

Yeah. That said, I don't know how likely I am to play tourneys in the future if the games are only 3 turns long. What a stunted way to play the game! I don't even think it's accurate to call them warhammer 40k tourneys if games aren't ever actually finished.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, try to see it from the TO point of view. 3 turns now are what 4-5 turns used to be in terms of time. And if you need to host around 100 games on bigger tournaments, you simply can not allow games to go on for too long, otherwise we won't be done by the end of the weekend.

That is not to say there are no games that actually go 7 turns. Those really close ones. 3 turns is basically a roflstomp when the opponent is so far superior that you can not be bothered anymore. There are all types of games. All I am saying is that alpha strike is very common and slower lists are at a disadvantage.

[Donkalleone]

If u have problems with reserves....Why dont u play the "Wolfs Unleashed" detachment. Evry Round after the First a unit automatically joins the play

[Frater Cornelius]

That is probably the only way I would play the Stormwolf ;)

Razorspam MSU, WUD detachment.

[knife&fork]

Thanks for sharing. Good to see someone else enjoying the design of those flyers

Though calling it the best is a bit of a stretch. The best at what? AA? Close call, I do not think it is superior to 2 night scythes spamming S7 (almost equivalent cost) since jink is very strong against low amount of shots.

Best at AT? I'll buy that.

Best at AI? Hell no!

Best assault transport? Possibly.

Best at anti heavy AV, anti flyer and anti monster. Things marines in general don't do so well on other platforms. Scythes are obviously better in most cases but that's why I wrote "non broken", they aren't going to stay at that powerlevel with that cost in the next Necron codex.

I just played a doubles tournament on the weekend where I took two storm wolves with passengers as my contingent.

I haven't played a lot of tournaments and didn't realise that it's rare to get much past turn 2-3. For such short games, they're a pretty crappy unit because they hardly get a chance to do anything!

What kind of tourney are you playing where people don't finish their games? Or do you mean that people get wiped on turn 2-3?

The normal 2.5-3 hours is plenty to finish a 2k game unless you face some kind of summoning spam or extreme horde list.

I like the 5 man BC with flamer for snatching objectives and pushing weak units off them. Some extra BS4 bolter shots isn't enough to justify the extra points you pay for a GH squad IMHO. That said it's nice to have the option to put just about anything in that storm wolf. Don't get married to the concept that it always has to be used by the same unit, or even used by just one unit during a game.

[Brannrik]

Has anyone ever tryed a Flyer with the Skyshield Landing Platform? I mena especially if you go first you can have your flyer on the board from T1 on without even having to care about intercept - it might be to expensive though

[knife&fork]

You'd have to start in hover mode though. So that's potentially 2 full turns of getting shot at with whatever at full BS.

[Wraithwing]

My list has a Stormwolf with a unit of 10 bare bones BCs led by a Wolf Priest on board. 

 

Do you think it's too risky for the points?

[knife&fork]

Yes, because I'm not sure I'd want those two units going to the same place on the battlefield. Considering how short the effective range of the the storm wolf is you might have to put yourself in a very bad position for using either it or the unit riding inside as they have very different targets. The storm wolf is also going to be a priority target, flyers generally are, and by putting something expensive and vulnerable inside you reward your opponent for focusing on it.

 

I think that you should always have a spare transport option in your list so that you can be flexible in your deployment. In my BA list every unit has a transport option, and then I take the raven on top of that. When the situation calls for it I can then switch things around with a dread not using his pod and instead hitching a ride in the raven, as one example.

For SW it's even better as you can have an extra FA pod or flyer that anyone can choose to use depending on the type of list you face. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Gotta agree with knife here. Having obj.sec. on a flyer is basically useless because you would need to go down to hover mode, which basically spells its doom. So unless you are completely full on FA slots, I would take SW. I would never do it like that though because I have more important things in the FA slots.

[FenrisWolf]

Just to go ever so slightly off topic, does anyone have opinions or experience with the Caestus Assault Ram?

[Frater Cornelius]

Just to go ever so slightly off topic, does anyone have opinions or experience with the Caestus Assault Ram?

 

Yes, I shot one down as Tau. That is all the experience I have :D

[FenrisWolf]

Lol... Not quite what I was looking for... 

 

I'd think the melt cannon it has (not sure of the exact name but an large blast melt gun IIRC) would be very effective at troop delivery, and seeing how it can transport 20 terminators...

[eyeslikethunder]

Gotta agree with knife here. Having obj.sec. on a flyer is basically useless because you would need to go down to hover mode, which basically spells its doom. So unless you are completely full on FA slots, I would take SW. I would never do it like that though because I have more important things in the FA slots.

in maelstrom I agree but in the tradional missions where you grab objective at the end having a obsec flyer with obsec unit inside can be quite useful as probably all the dangerous fire is gone so the risk is low to zero and you have double objective grabber which hard for your opponent to destroy

[CatSmasher]

I love the fliers we got in the new dex. I use void claws or wolves unleashed to ensure they come right away. They are great because of their mobility, their fire power, and jink (and PotMS) with av 12 means its hard to shoot down. AP3 templates are nothing to scoff at either. 

 

I have tried them paired with a LR and Thunderwolves, and also with drop-pods in a "null deployment" list with great success. I have run a wolf priest and small WG squad to get preferred enemy to tank or MC hunt.

 

My current list if fluffy and pretty dangerous. I run one fang and one wolf(termies), one LR with termies, Ulric and Thunderwolves I use our speed and combat prowess to pressure the opponent. I can DS the termies if I am worried about them in the flier. Depending on the list size you can emphasize armour by adding a vindicator, or season with desired HQ.

 

I do agree with the criticisms here though, and agree that they work best in tandem. They are amazing and fun units to play, and fluffwise i love the idea of a LR and low flying long boat puking up some wolf guard with arjac and Ulrik, none shall survive!

[skeletoro]

My opinion with the CAR is that it's potentially very good because it gets attacks on more than one phase. With a little luck, it can conceivably ram an enemy vehicle, destroying it, giving it the option of shooting its passengers with the magna melta.

 

Also, it just struck me how useful outflank would be for a CAR - though it cannot be taken as a dedicated transport so you could only get it on a 6 with SWU.

 

Regarding the tournament (3 turns was due to time, not being tabled), it was a doubles tourney and I noticed a lot of time was used up by allies discussing their plans. But my first opponent was the #2 player in NZ and he said that it's pretty much the norm for 2k games to run out of time and be cut short.

 

I understand it from the TO's point or view. I don't blame anyone. I just think that it's a very limited way to play the game (and less fun, though I did still enjoy myself), if that's the norm.

 

Regarding BCs of 5, you'd have to be charging a VERY weak unit to make 5 blood claws useful. charging necessitates weight of numbers because you will likely suffer overwatch and retaliatory strikes. Casualties are almost unavoidable. A 5 man grey hunter squad may not be targetted by enemy fire, and if they are, the enemy pays an opportunity cost for doing so (they could have targetted another unit). Even if blood claws aren't actively targetted, they will likely suffer some attrition due to overwatch/assault. 5 blood claws may defeat a weak enemy unit (initiative 3, poor armour save, and relatively small in size) but once they've taken a casualty or two they'll struggle to even do that. And they're not great if they're sitting on an objective, not charging anything. And 5 grey hunters only cost 10 more points than 5 blood claws. That's a pretty trivial difference if you ask me.

[knife&fork]

  But my first opponent was the #2 player in NZ and he said that it's pretty much the norm for 2k games to run out of time and be cut short.

 

 

Regarding BCs of 5, you'd have to be charging a VERY weak unit to make 5 blood claws useful.  

 

There's a number of way to fix that in my experience. The easiest one is to remind players of the time (1 hour, 30 min and 15 min warnings) and have a huge clock somewhere that people can see. Another is to put in some kind of scoring mechanic in the missions that only kick in at turn 5. If nothing else helps put a hard cap on player turns.

Even complicated matches are played quickly when both players concentrate and work together to finish up :)

 

Correct, but the same thing is also true for 5 grey hunters. You'll need to take at least 10 MEQ and pay for additional upgrades before you can reliably shift something tougher than guardians or guardsmen off an objective. Considering that this squad will do late game scoring they are likely to go after uncontested objectives, score line breaker, bully weak units or trump a non obsec unit. 

I don't think they need to put out a lot of damage to their job.

[skeletoro]

they did do the reminders thing.

 

its not quite the same with grey hunters because they have a longer effective range. Several smaller ranged units can effectively pool their resources by shooting at the same target, and a pack of 5 grey hunters can do this while standing on a mid field objective. Several packs of 5 blood claws won't pool their effectiveness quite as readily, as they'd need to assault the same target together (otherwise they will trigger extra overwatch and other assault phase attrition when they engage extra enemy units). It is even harder to so this while camping an objective.

 

5 of anything will often need to work in concert with your other units, but 5 grey hunters can do this easier while sitting on an objective.

they did do the reminders thing.

 

its not quite the same with grey hunters because they have a longer effective range. Several smaller ranged units can effectively pool their resources by shooting at the same target, and a pack of 5 grey hunters can do this while standing on a mid field objective. Several packs of 5 blood claws won't pool their effectiveness quite as readily, as they'd need to assault the same target together (otherwise they will trigger extra overwatch and other assault phase attrition when they engage extra enemy units). It is even harder to so this while camping an objective.

 

5 of anything will often need to work in concert with your other units, but 5 grey hunters can do this easier while sitting on an objective.

[skeletoro]

I think it would be good to make the eternal war scoring only apply at the conclusion of a game - make unfinished games a draw. Along the lines of what you said. I agree.

 

many of my games were quite frustrating because at the end of turn 3 it was looking like we had a really good chance of winning by the end of turn 5, but without those two extra turns, we were far behind in terms of victory points.

[knife&fork]

 

its not quite the same with grey hunters because they have a longer effective range. Several smaller ranged units can effectively pool their resources by shooting at the same target, and a pack of 5 grey hunters can do this while standing on a mid field objective. Several packs of 5 blood claws won't pool their effectiveness quite as readily, as they'd need to assault the same target together (otherwise they will trigger extra overwatch and other assault phase attrition when they engage extra enemy units). It is even harder to so this while camping an objective.

 

5 of anything will often need to work in concert with your other units, but 5 grey hunters can do this easier while sitting on an objective.

 

I think you might misunderstand me. I don't advocate MSU spam when it comes to marine infantry as we can't bring enough special weapons for that to be effective. There's no real marine equivalent of things like eldar fire dragons.

Better to maximize killing and staying power in proper units so that we don't have to commit several of them at once to deal with a threat. At least not more than what's absolutely needed. 

 

That throw away 5 man unit is just there to get late game easy VPs, not to do any heavy lifting. Most of the time simply being on table is what they'll do. For vanilla marines a 5-man scout squad would do a similar job, but the blood claws are better in every way. Keep em as cheap as possible and it won't hurt your plan that much if they get delayed or destroyed along with the flyer. A 10 pt (or 20 with chainswords)  difference might not seem like a lot but it will pay for a melta, locator beacon, dozer blade, melta bomb or some other piece of wargear elsewhere.

[Frater Cornelius]

MSU is only worth it when you can get worthwhile dedicated transports. Firedragon Serpent spam beats Marine Razorspam any day of the week.