Talon of Horus

[Loesh]

Was it, though?

 

Was it though?

 

Yes, yes it was.

[Conn Eremon]

Oh. 'kay.

 

Seriously, I get that it was the Horus clone, I was joking.

 

But after reading it (I said I would wait for my next check, but I just couldn't), I'm afraid the execution of that tidbit kind of fell flat. I get what it was supposed to mean, but it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel like that was what it meant. It also doesn't feel right that it mean anything else. It just fell flat for me. But I think that might be more me than the book itself.

 

And that was my only gripe about it. The actual event was great, and I loved how he made something so momentously important happen like nothing more than a footnote. Not everything that changes history has fireworks going off in the background. Not everything that should be impactful happens as expected.

 

Ultimately, I was satisfied with how that was handled.

[Loesh]

Oh. 'kay.

 

Seriously, I get that it was the Horus clone, I was joking.

 

But after reading it (I said I would wait for my next check, but I just couldn't), I'm afraid the execution of that tidbit kind of fell flat. I get what it was supposed to mean, but it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel like that was what it meant. It also doesn't feel right that it mean anything else. It just fell flat for me. But I think that might be more me than the book itself.

 

And that was my only gripe about it. The actual event was great, and I loved how he made something so momentously important happen like nothing more than a footnote. Not everything that changes history has fireworks going off in the background. Not everything that should be impactful happens as expected.

 

Ultimately, I was satisfied with how that was handled.

 

So was I, text doesn't communicate tone very well.

[DarKnight]

It'd be great to see Dorn coming to relieve Sigismund, only to find his broken body. Sigismund with his last breaths calling to his father with tears in his eyes, "Father, I failed you.... I failed you again." Another heartbreak for Rogal Dorn. 

[atin]

Some other question: 

Where is alpharius in the whole all the primarch bow down to the black legion..

I always thought at least he or his twin lived, or is it just me hoping that they (he) are still alive and kicking.

 

And I think the second primarch is the Horus clone, as a symbol.

A symbol of a new start, cutting al ties to the old way etc.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Where is alpharius in the whole all the primarch bow down to the black legion..

I always thought at least he or his twin lived, or is it just me hoping that they (he) are still alive and kicking.

 

Alpharius isn't interested in being Abby's underling. He's probably still doing the Cabal's bidding, undermining the Imperium and bringing about the extinction of the human race. 

 

I mean, the Imperium thinks it killed one of them, but given that the Alpha Legion thrives on misinformation, its unlikely that's true. 

[b1soul]

It'd be great to see Dorn coming to relieve Sigismund, only to find his broken body. Sigismund with his last breaths calling to his father with tears in his eyes, "Father, I failed you.... I failed you again." Another heartbreak for Rogal Dorn. 

 

Boy am I glad you don't write for BL

 

Your idea of "great" is to have the greatest Imperial champion in history...cry to daddy before he kicks the bucket

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

It'd be great to see Dorn coming to relieve Sigismund, only to find his broken body. Sigismund with his last breaths calling to his father with tears in his eyes, "Father, I failed you.... I failed you again." Another heartbreak for Rogal Dorn.

Boy am I glad you don't write for BL

 

Your idea of "great" is to have the greatest Imperial champion in history...cry to daddy before he kicks the bucket

Worked fine for Horus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

It'd be great to see Dorn coming to relieve Sigismund, only to find his broken body. Sigismund with his last breaths calling to his father with tears in his eyes, "Father, I failed you.... I failed you again." Another heartbreak for Rogal Dorn.

Boy am I glad you don't write for BL

 

Your idea of "great" is to have the greatest Imperial champion in history...cry to daddy before he kicks the bucket

Worked fine for Horus.

 

 

your definition of "greatest Imperial champion" could use some rethinking. ;)

 

WLK

[Conn Eremon]

My definition is just fine. They even used Horus' picture as an example in this here dictionary, printed in the hundred and thirty second year of His Imperial Majesty's reign.

 

Pretty straightforward.

[Bulwyf]

Oh. 'kay.

 

Seriously, I get that it was the Horus clone, I was joking.

 

But after reading it (I said I would wait for my next check, but I just couldn't), I'm afraid the execution of that tidbit kind of fell flat. I get what it was supposed to mean, but it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel like that was what it meant. It also doesn't feel right that it mean anything else. It just fell flat for me. But I think that might be more me than the book itself.

 

And that was my only gripe about it. The actual event was great, and I loved how he made something so momentously important happen like nothing more than a footnote. Not everything that changes history has fireworks going off in the background. Not everything that should be impactful happens as expected.

 

Ultimately, I was satisfied with how that was handled.

 

Sorta like Harold getting an arrow in the eye and as a result forever changing world history?

[Bulwyf]

I don't understand the whole "primarchs bowing to Abby" schtick. Why would they even care? One of the biggest gripes I have had in BL lore for, well, many years is that the demon primarchs still exist and yet do absolutely nothing. You have one Angron appearance and apparently 100 grey knights can handle that. But nothing from the rest of them.

 

I appreciate ADB for many reasons but the most important is that he is a fan who became a writer. Not all writers are created equally. Some do not care or give any thought to canon or continuity or any kind of interior logic to explain a setting. This is the first book that I can remember where at least A reason is given for why the demon primarchs do nothing when logically speaking they would be the ones leading Crusades to wipe out a prmarch less Imperium. The reason? They just don't care about the material plane aka real space aka Imperium because all of them are caught up in the Great Game of Chaos. 

 

So I have to assume that the primarchs kneeling to Abby is ADB giving other fans who also have had this question of lazy demon primarchs bugging them for years a reason WHY they are lazy. They just don't care and Abby makes it "official" by removing their ability to rally CSM and mortal troops on future Crusades to win the Long War. Abby doesn't care about them or their Great Game and they don't care about Abby or his Crusades.

 

I'm sure ADB will blow this apart if he sees it but it at least gives me some kind of balm to this long running grudge of why logically a vastly superior demon primarchs Crusade never happened against a no loyal primarch left Imperium.

[DarKnight]

 

It'd be great to see Dorn coming to relieve Sigismund, only to find his broken body. Sigismund with his last breaths calling to his father with tears in his eyes, "Father, I failed you.... I failed you again." Another heartbreak for Rogal Dorn. 

 

Boy am I glad you don't write for BL

 

Your idea of "great" is to have the greatest Imperial champion in history...cry to daddy before he kicks the bucket

 

LMAO we all have to start somewhere, Soul

[DarkChaplain]

I don't understand the whole "primarchs bowing to Abby" schtick. Why would they even care? One of the biggest gripes I have had in BL lore for, well, many years is that the demon primarchs still exist and yet do absolutely nothing. You have one Angron appearance and apparently 100 grey knights can handle that. But nothing from the rest of them.

 

I appreciate ADB for many reasons but the most important is that he is a fan who became a writer. Not all writers are created equally. Some do not care or give any thought to canon or continuity or any kind of interior logic to explain a setting. This is the first book that I can remember where at least A reason is given for why the demon primarchs do nothing when logically speaking they would be the ones leading Crusades to wipe out a prmarch less Imperium. The reason? They just don't care about the material plane aka real space aka Imperium because all of them are caught up in the Great Game of Chaos. 

 

So I have to assume that the primarchs kneeling to Abby is ADB giving other fans who also have had this question of lazy demon primarchs bugging them for years a reason WHY they are lazy. They just don't care and Abby makes it "official" by removing their ability to rally CSM and mortal troops on future Crusades to win the Long War. Abby doesn't care about them or their Great Game and they don't care about Abby or his Crusades.

 

I'm sure ADB will blow this apart if he sees it but it at least gives me some kind of balm to this long running grudge of why logically a vastly superior demon primarchs Crusade never happened against a no loyal primarch left Imperium.

 

 

First off, Angron wasn't just handled by 100 Grey Knights. The Grey Knights were nearly wiped out by him and his dozen/thirteen(?) Great Daemons. The Space Wolves were also involved in containing the incursion.

 

Nothing from the rest of them?

Mortarion was wreaking havoc a few times, and was eventually beaten back by Kaldor Draigo, after the previous Grand Master was killed by Mortarion. (see: Mortarion's Heart by Laurie Goulding)

Magnus went on to destroy the Wolves' hope to be able to expand their recruitment drives beyond Fenris, and laid waste to the Fang.

Perturabo apparently opened a warp portal for Abaddon during the 10th Black Crusade.

Fulgrim "killed" Guilliman even after Slaanesh granted him a world of pleasures.

 

Lorgar would be the only Daemon Primarch who has actually shut himself in, not to be interrupted. Considering he's felt vindicated by his ascension, it'd be safe to assume that he's got something big in the think tank. Last time he locked himself away, he wrote the Book of Lorgar...

 

And the "they're above mortal concerns" part has been repeated time and again whenever the Daemon Primarch question came up, both at events, interviews as well as the stories.

 

Besides, even though Abaddon is apparently set to make them kneel before him, Mortarion at the very least is "free" to lead a nurgle-rampage even as far as 900.M41....

[A D-B]

I don't understand the whole "primarchs bowing to Abby" schtick. Why would they even care? One of the biggest gripes I have had in BL lore for, well, many years is that the demon primarchs still exist and yet do absolutely nothing. You have one Angron appearance and apparently 100 grey knights can handle that. But nothing from the rest of them.

 

I appreciate ADB for many reasons but the most important is that he is a fan who became a writer. Not all writers are created equally. Some do not care or give any thought to canon or continuity or any kind of interior logic to explain a setting. This is the first book that I can remember where at least A reason is given for why the demon primarchs do nothing when logically speaking they would be the ones leading Crusades to wipe out a prmarch less Imperium. The reason? They just don't care about the material plane aka real space aka Imperium because all of them are caught up in the Great Game of Chaos. 

 

So I have to assume that the primarchs kneeling to Abby is ADB giving other fans who also have had this question of lazy demon primarchs bugging them for years a reason WHY they are lazy. They just don't care and Abby makes it "official" by removing their ability to rally CSM and mortal troops on future Crusades to win the Long War. Abby doesn't care about them or their Great Game and they don't care about Abby or his Crusades.

 

I'm sure ADB will blow this apart if he sees it but it at least gives me some kind of balm to this long running grudge of why logically a vastly superior demon primarchs Crusade never happened against a no loyal primarch left Imperium.

 

That's a really interesting point. There's got to be (in my mind, at least) a balance between several aspects.

 

Most obviously (though not most importantly), the Daemon Primarchs are still involved in incursions into realspace. Very, very infrequent incursaions, but incursions nonetheless. They used to have models in Epic, and there was Angron's deal at the First War for Armageddon, and so on. In the latter example there was no evidence of anything remotely mortal about him: he was an avatar of rage and violence, sent by the Warp to a place where there'd be an immense amount of - you guessed it - rage and violence. (As an aside, I have a cool story idea where there would be certain former-primarch and self-control elements to him, in how and why the First War happens, though I'll likely never write it. But I digress.)

 

Then there's just what becoming a Daemon Prince really is. What it involves, what you gain, and most importantly, what you lose. The Daemon Primarchs are supremely powerful beings, far above the level of your average Daemon Prince, and arguably significantly closer to Chaos' whims and their gods' wills. They've evolved past mortal concerns (or ascended beyond them, if you prefer) and are now major players in the Great Game. They couldn't be further from the beings they were in the Heresy. They don't see the universe the way they saw things as mortal beings. They don't perceive the Imperium the same way. They exist as facets of Chaos, with the complexities and myriad impossibilities of perception that comes with such a state. They don't think in terms of holding territory or conquering land. They likely don't think much at all in terms humans can understand them.

 

They're as much instruments of the Divine now, as individual beings. Tools and weapons - but tools and weapons that work best inside the Eye and the Warp itself, and are fighting on different battlefields, on a different plane of existence, 99% of the time. Not in incursions into realspace, which is likely why such incursions are rare. Put more simply: Chaos didn't promote them to conquer the Imperium, because by ascending they became almost useless for that task.

 

Which ties into the Gods wanting Abaddon, but he resists ascension. No matter how powerful it would make him, it would limit him in the same way. He doesn't care about the Great Game or the whims of divine beings. He cares about mortal matters. He cares about conquering the Imperium. 

 

I know that we all know this, but it's good to reiterate for context in discussions as multi-layered as this.

 

Perhaps most importantly, Khayon had a certain turn of phrase about the primarchs kneeling, but there are two other factors in that. 

 

As much as I love to keep factions balanced and I'm against the idea of one Legion being "better" than the other, there's the plain fact that every character has flaws, and some primarchs were raised and shaped in significantly worse circumstances than others. Flaws are what make characters interesting a lot of the time, and for every time Lorgar or Horus insist that Chaos chose them, there's an equal argument for the idea that Chaos just found the most misguided and the most arrogant primarchs to be the easiest two to dupe. For every argument that Angron was such a perfect incarnation of fury that Khorne would have preferred no other, there's the possibility that he was simply so lost that claiming his soul was child's play; and, more intriguingly, that Khorne favours Khârn more, because Khârn is the immortal one out there in the galaxy, apparently(?) brought back from the dead, and actually taking skulls for the Skull Throne.

 

So you've got to keep the idea of Legion/Primarch balance, present several possibilities of imbalance as almost equally credible, and on top of that you've got to bear in mind that, well, some primarchs really may have just been 'broken' or 'better' and take the plunge in presenting that outlook, while keeping it in line with the above possibilities. Writing for 40K isn't exactly easy. I don't say that to engender sympathy (this is the best job in the world), but just to illustrate the nuance that can go on at times. 

 

The second aspect about Khayon's turn of phrase I mentioned is that it's just that: a turn of phrase. When he actually talks in detail about the Daemon Primarchs, he doesn't say they all physically kneel before Abaddon. He says that one in particular does, but doesn't say how, and (no spoilers) he says that there are dealings with others that take certain courses. This is the Twelve Tasks of Hercules, or the Odyssey. It'll never be as straight-cut as them all being 'beaten' in the same way, or even beaten at all in the obvious way. Some Daemon Primarchs might recognise Abaddon as Chaos' perfect mortal instrument - they'd be wise enough to respect him for sensing he'll do what their brother Horus couldn't. Some might hate him. Others might be largely indifferent to him, until he gets their attention in some way... and then they might go back to being largely indifferent again, until the next summons or cycle comes around. Others might specifically want to work with him, or through him, or serve as ambassadors for their god in later years. Others will seek to use him to further their own gods' aims, or their own schemes. Over X-thousand years, a primarch might go from thinking A to B to C to D, from being a mentor to being a rival to not giving a damn to being almost destroyed to being a prisoner to being a mentor again. There's a lot of possibility.

 

So it'll be far from simple. Khayon's turn of phrase was a generalisation about an eventuality. One he clarified immediately, and not a reference to the entire story or process of dealing with the Daemon Primarchs over the entirety of time in the Empire of the Eye.

[Loesh]

 

-snip-

 

This is something i'v actually thought on a lot with the Daemon Primarchs and their respective champions who are, interestingly enough, not Daemon Princes despite Thrall Wizards ascending while Ahirman did not. It's a concept I very much enjoy and one of the bases for my particular warband leader was a character who enjoyed the pleasures of mortal life more then those offered in the warp, I think we all too often only see Chaos Lords running after becoming Daemon Princes and it gives this very narrow view of what Chaos is and how it affects people.

 

One of the things I liked from the Tome of Excess was a Pirate Prince of the Ragged Helix who became a champion of Slaanesh...not by succumbing to excess, but by mastering his vices and had a adviser represent a vice mastered in turn, he had kept hold of his humanity by embracing this sort of six fold path for himself. It's something that doesn't get a lot of play in Chaos, and i'd love to see more.

[Allart01]

 

 

That's a really interesting point. There's got to be (in my mind, at least) a balance between several aspects.

 

Most obviously (though not most importantly), the Daemon Primarchs are still involved in incursions into realspace. Very, very infrequent incursaions, but incursions nonetheless. They used to have models in Epic, and there was Angron's deal at the First War for Armageddon, and so on. In the latter example there was no evidence of anything remotely mortal about him: he was an avatar of rage and violence, sent by the Warp to a place where there'd be an immense amount of - you guessed it - rage and violence. (As an aside, I have a cool story idea where there would be certain former-primarch and self-control elements to him, in how and why the First War happens, though I'll likely never write it. But I digress.)

 

 

I will sacrifice eight bunnies to the Blood God and pray for this to happen. 

 

As for the rest, I can't wait to see how daemon-Angron relates to mortals, be it dealing with Abaddon or right after his ascension. 

He is free from the nails, yet filled once again with divine rage.

I'm so very curious about him and his evolution. 

[Bulwyf]

 

I don't understand the whole "primarchs bowing to Abby" schtick. Why would they even care? One of the biggest gripes I have had in BL lore for, well, many years is that the demon primarchs still exist and yet do absolutely nothing. You have one Angron appearance and apparently 100 grey knights can handle that. But nothing from the rest of them.

 

I appreciate ADB for many reasons but the most important is that he is a fan who became a writer. Not all writers are created equally. Some do not care or give any thought to canon or continuity or any kind of interior logic to explain a setting. This is the first book that I can remember where at least A reason is given for why the demon primarchs do nothing when logically speaking they would be the ones leading Crusades to wipe out a prmarch less Imperium. The reason? They just don't care about the material plane aka real space aka Imperium because all of them are caught up in the Great Game of Chaos. 

 

So I have to assume that the primarchs kneeling to Abby is ADB giving other fans who also have had this question of lazy demon primarchs bugging them for years a reason WHY they are lazy. They just don't care and Abby makes it "official" by removing their ability to rally CSM and mortal troops on future Crusades to win the Long War. Abby doesn't care about them or their Great Game and they don't care about Abby or his Crusades.

 

I'm sure ADB will blow this apart if he sees it but it at least gives me some kind of balm to this long running grudge of why logically a vastly superior demon primarchs Crusade never happened against a no loyal primarch left Imperium.

 

That's a really interesting point. There's got to be (in my mind, at least) a balance between several aspects.

 

Most obviously (though not most importantly), the Daemon Primarchs are still involved in incursions into realspace. Very, very infrequent incursaions, but incursions nonetheless. They used to have models in Epic, and there was Angron's deal at the First War for Armageddon, and so on. In the latter example there was no evidence of anything remotely mortal about him: he was an avatar of rage and violence, sent by the Warp to a place where there'd be an immense amount of - you guessed it - rage and violence. (As an aside, I have a cool story idea where there would be certain former-primarch and self-control elements to him, in how and why the First War happens, though I'll likely never write it. But I digress.)

 

Then there's just what becoming a Daemon Prince really is. What it involves, what you gain, and most importantly, what you lose. The Daemon Primarchs are supremely powerful beings, far above the level of your average Daemon Prince, and arguably significantly closer to Chaos' whims and their gods' wills. They've evolved past mortal concerns (or ascended beyond them, if you prefer) and are now major players in the Great Game. They couldn't be further from the beings they were in the Heresy. They don't see the universe the way they saw things as mortal beings. They don't perceive the Imperium the same way. They exist as facets of Chaos, with the complexities and myriad impossibilities of perception that comes with such a state. They don't think in terms of holding territory or conquering land. They likely don't think much at all in terms humans can understand them.

 

They're as much instruments of the Divine now, as individual beings. Tools and weapons - but tools and weapons that work best inside the Eye and the Warp itself, and are fighting on different battlefields, on a different plane of existence, 99% of the time. Not in incursions into realspace, which is likely why such incursions are rare. Put more simply: Chaos didn't promote them to conquer the Imperium, because by ascending they became almost useless for that task.

 

Which ties into the Gods wanting Abaddon, but he resists ascension. No matter how powerful it would make him, it would limit him in the same way. He doesn't care about the Great Game or the whims of divine beings. He cares about mortal matters. He cares about conquering the Imperium. 

 

I know that we all know this, but it's good to reiterate for context in discussions as multi-layered as this.

 

Perhaps most importantly, Khayon had a certain turn of phrase about the primarchs kneeling, but there are two other factors in that. 

 

As much as I love to keep factions balanced and I'm against the idea of one Legion being "better" than the other, there's the plain fact that every character has flaws, and some primarchs were raised and shaped in significantly worse circumstances than others. Flaws are what make characters interesting a lot of the time, and for every time Lorgar or Horus insist that Chaos chose them, there's an equal argument for the idea that Chaos just found the most misguided and the most arrogant primarchs to be the easiest two to dupe. For every argument that Angron was such a perfect incarnation of fury that Khorne would have preferred no other, there's the possibility that he was simply so lost that claiming his soul was child's play; and, more intriguingly, that Khorne favours Khârn more, because Khârn is the immortal one out there in the galaxy, apparently(?) brought back from the dead, and actually taking skulls for the Skull Throne.

 

So you've got to keep the idea of Legion/Primarch balance, present several possibilities of imbalance as almost equally credible, and on top of that you've got to bear in mind that, well, some primarchs really may have just been 'broken' or 'better' and take the plunge in presenting that outlook, while keeping it in line with the above possibilities. Writing for 40K isn't exactly easy. I don't say that to engender sympathy (this is the best job in the world), but just to illustrate the nuance that can go on at times. 

 

The second aspect about Khayon's turn of phrase I mentioned is that it's just that: a turn of phrase. When he actually talks in detail about the Daemon Primarchs, he doesn't say they all physically kneel before Abaddon. He says that one in particular does, but doesn't say how, and (no spoilers) he says that there are dealings with others that take certain courses. This is the Twelve Tasks of Hercules, or the Odyssey. It'll never be as straight-cut as them all being 'beaten' in the same way, or even beaten at all in the obvious way. Some Daemon Primarchs might recognise Abaddon as Chaos' perfect mortal instrument - they'd be wise enough to respect him for sensing he'll do what their brother Horus couldn't. Some might hate him. Others might be largely indifferent to him, until he gets their attention in some way... and then they might go back to being largely indifferent again, until the next summons or cycle comes around. Others might specifically want to work with him, or through him, or serve as ambassadors for their god in later years. Others will seek to use him to further their own gods' aims, or their own schemes. Over X-thousand years, a primarch might go from thinking A to B to C to D, from being a mentor to being a rival to not giving a damn to being almost destroyed to being a prisoner to being a mentor again. There's a lot of possibility.

 

So it'll be far from simple. Khayon's turn of phrase was a generalisation about an eventuality. One he clarified immediately, and not a reference to the entire story or process of dealing with the Daemon Primarchs over the entirety of time in the Empire of the Eye.

 

 

I sincerely appreciate the response. It has always bothered me that if Chaos wanted to take over real space, I mean really wanted to do this then the simple solution would be to spit the Demon Primarchs back out of the Eye with all the bells and whistles we've come to see from Black Crusades. The Imperium in 40k hasn't had a live or non stasis frozen loyal Primarch in millennia.  It should be relatively easy then for six rampaging Demon Primarchs to trample over the opposition and give the last call bum rush to the Big E and boot him off the Golden Throne.

 

But that has never happened nor has it really been explained why it has not happened or could ever happen. Taking into account your well crafted response it sorta boggles the suspension of disbelief that this has not been directly addressed previously to ToH. Even the old "warp creatures can only exist for "X" amount of time outside the warp while in real space" argument would not be a satisfactory answer. There certainly are enough worlds to sacrifice to extend a Demon Primarch's material existence and frankly speaking the only one world that truly matters to the Imperium is Holy Terra. If all six of the Demon Primarchs led a Crusade directly to Earth and attacked the I'm not quite dead yet Emperor then they would be unstoppable in that goal.

 

We at least have now some explanation the reason why this McGuffin was never used seriously before. A brief appearance here or there hardly qualifies as a serious incursion. If the reason why the six remaining primarchs don't show up is because they simply don't care because their greater fight and prize will always be inside the Eye/Warp then it gives Abby a free hand to worry about the mortal real space. I like it. Abby can have their blessing/support as needed or forced while the DPs simply shrug their shoulders and tut tut about mortals and their mortal concerns while they are grappling with the dying of stars and galaxies and all that other cosmic/spiritual war that the Pantheon is engaged in.

 

I don't know if this would count as asking for spoilers but I do have to ask: we can safely assume that four of the Demon Primarchs (DP) are working directly for the Pantheon god they are identified with. Lorgar has always been about Chaos Undivided but that leaves one of my personal favorites completely unaccounted for: the Lord of Iron. What god does the DP Perturabo serve? Is he also serving Chaos Undivided or does he serve one of the Pantheon? Or something else for that matter? His Legion is one of the few who see Chaos as simply a tool to be used or discarded at will so it would at least make some sense that they are following their primarch in this line of thought.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

-snip-

 

This is something i'v actually thought on a lot with the Daemon Primarchs and their respective champions who are, interestingly enough, not Daemon Princes despite Thrall Wizards ascending while Ahirman did not. It's a concept I very much enjoy and one of the bases for my particular warband leader was a character who enjoyed the pleasures of mortal life more then those offered in the warp, I think we all too often only see Chaos Lords running after becoming Daemon Princes and it gives this very narrow view of what Chaos is and how it affects people.

 

One of the things I liked from the Tome of Excess was a Pirate Prince of the Ragged Helix who became a champion of Slaanesh...not by succumbing to excess, but by mastering his vices and had a vice mastered in turn, he had kept hold of his humanity by embracing this sort of six fold path for himself. It's something that doesn't get a lot of play in Chaos, and i'd love to see more.

 

 

 

Please count me among the "teeming masses yearning for nuanced Chaos characters" instead of, to be honest, "bolter porn" bad guys we generally have in BL fiction. Present ADB company excluded, of course.

[Artein]

The thing I'm most looking for in the series is the interaction between Abaddon the Warmaster and Daemonic Primarchs. I'm looking for it since the series was announced.... warp, even earlier, since ADB had his conversation with Dan Abnett posted on the Black Library site few years ago....

[Loesh]

 

 

 

-snip-

 

This is something i'v actually thought on a lot with the Daemon Primarchs and their respective champions who are, interestingly enough, not Daemon Princes despite Thrall Wizards ascending while Ahirman did not. It's a concept I very much enjoy and one of the bases for my particular warband leader was a character who enjoyed the pleasures of mortal life more then those offered in the warp, I think we all too often only see Chaos Lords running after becoming Daemon Princes and it gives this very narrow view of what Chaos is and how it affects people.

 

One of the things I liked from the Tome of Excess was a Pirate Prince of the Ragged Helix who became a champion of Slaanesh...not by succumbing to excess, but by mastering his vices and had a vice mastered in turn, he had kept hold of his humanity by embracing this sort of six fold path for himself. It's something that doesn't get a lot of play in Chaos, and i'd love to see more.

 

 

 

Please count me among the "teeming masses yearning for nuanced Chaos characters" instead of, to be honest, "bolter porn" bad guys we generally have in BL fiction. Present ADB company excluded, of course.

 

 

Agreed, in fact i'd like Chaos Followers who aren't villains at all now and again.

 

That said, I can wait a bit: One of the reasons I like Games Workshop is because of how much they make do with their IPs flexibility, while the broader universe is stagnant(Which isn't always a bad thing.)  artists and fluff writers seem to be given an amazing amount of free reign to project their vision within a controlled environment. Yes this get's things like Matt Ward, yes it also gets C.S Goto, but it also means that the lore for the *most part* is consistent  and fits together cohesively while allowing a lot of freedom for...not just authors...but players...to do their own thing.

 

Other franchises like Warcraft, Star Wars, etc have become or were complacent with having one central Ideas guy like Lucas or Metzen rather then a cast of authors, as such the storytelling suffers as one particular vision devours the entire universe. Without any alternate source or in-universe explanation for alternate perspectives(Like Chaos mostly being seen through an Imperial PoV which is why they all seem single-minded and evil.) it eventually collapses onto itself into one overpowering miasma of failure.

 

So far, Warhammer hasn't gone down that road.

[Loesh]

Something I was thinking about with Black Legion Hierarchy and I haven't been able to go through the book so forgive me, but in Battlefield Gothic I remember it being said Eidolen served as one of Abaddons lieutenants despite still identifying as an Emperors Children. Do groups like the Ezekarion only belong to the Black Legion? or can Abaddon and Co have a council of people from several different legions at any one time?

[Conn Eremon]

I would think such groupings can be fluid, and temporary organizations can exist as needed or for specific situations and stretches of time.

 

Such as Eidolon serving as Abaddon's lieutenant during a certain period of time or campaign/crusade. That doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon was considered a part of the Black Legion or the Ezekarion at that time. It just means that, at that time, Eidolon was subordinated but highly placed in Abaddon's collective hosts.

[Loesh]

I would think such groupings can be fluid, and temporary organizations can exist as needed or for specific situations and stretches of time.

 

Such as Eidolon serving as Abaddon's lieutenant during a certain period of time or campaign/crusade. That doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon was considered a part of the Black Legion or the Ezekarion at that time. It just means that, at that time, Eidolon was subordinated but highly placed in Abaddon's collective hosts.

 

Fair enough, maybe we can see a bit more of 'The Risen' if ADB ever gets the idea to write something about Battlefield Gothic. :p

[b1soul]

 

LMAO we all have to start somewhere, Soul

 

Perhaps you're drawing inspiration from Horus' grief in his final moment before destruction. Well, I think tears are a bit more justified in that scenario. Horus realises the depth of his treachery, how he has betrayed his own father by allowing Chaos to manipulate his pride and ambition, the irreparable damage he has done to the Imperium. That is something to be ashamed of...turning on your own father when you're his most favoured son. Horus is the Arch Traitor. It's rather appropriate for him to cry tears of shame when he finally snaps out of his Chaos-induced haze. 

 

In your scenario, Sigismund gives his all to defeat Abaddon but can't pull off the win (in part because Sigismund is really old by the time they cross blades). There's really not much for Sigismund to be ashamed of...I don't think defeat alone would justify a weepy Sigismund. He's the original Emperor's Champion. Why have him display such weakness in his final moment? You'd think crying would shame Sigismund even more in the eyes of Dorn, further reducing Dorn's opinion of him. Dorn wants his sons to be strong and resolute.  

 

In my humble opinion, I think a more powerful way of handling it would be something like this:

 

"I have failed you lord...again." Sigismund's voice is weak. He is choking on his own blood. "I am not worthy to be called a son of Rogal Dorn." The life was fast draining from the old knight. "My name is not worthy of remembrance...I deserve only oblivion." Sigismund shows no weakness. Weakness allowed Abaddon to best him. In his final moments, Sigismund banishes weakness. He bears the crushing shame of failure without flinching. He will die as an Imperial Fist, even if he failed to live as one. 

 

Dorn is kneeling beside the fallen warrior. Stony-faced, Dorn looks over Sigismund's mangled form. The primarch is about to speak, but Sigismund coughs blood, once, twice, and then no more. The life has fled from the paladin's face. The expression fixed upon it is both inspiring and heart-breaking, torn between a warrior's stoicism and a penitent's remorse.

 

I have failed you lord. Dorn reflects heavily upon these words. The primarch's own failures have haunted him for many decades. His reluctance to accept Horus' treachery. That was his first crime. His absence from the Emperor's side as his father faced the Arch Traitor alone. That was his ultimate sin.

 

The noble Angel had given his life to weaken Horus, if only every so slightly. What had he done, the Emperor's supposed Praetorian? Nothing. Dorn's expression softened almost imperceptibly. "We have all failed," Dorn whispered. "My failures have perhaps been the most unforgivable." The Primarch slowly raised himself to his full height and saluted the fallen Paladin. "But I promise this...the name of Sigismund, son of Dorn, will be remembered forever."