Talon of Horus

[Loesh]

 

 

I can buy that. 

 

 

Also, and...argh, this is a touchy subject, and I don't want to sound like i'm insulting the Thousand Sons or Magnus because I like them both. But I can see Magnus specifically being put into a situation where he'd have to kneel to Abaddon, both for character reasons, and because of the nature of Tzeentch and the relationship Tzeentch has with Magnus in contrast with the other Primarchs and Dark Gods.

[Nazguire]

 

 

 

I can buy that. 

 

 

Also, and...argh, this is a touchy subject, and I don't want to sound like i'm insulting the Thousand Sons or Magnus because I like them both. But I can see Magnus specifically being put into a situation where he'd have to kneel to Abaddon, both for character reasons, and because of the nature of Tzeentch and the relationship Tzeentch has with Magnus in contrast with the other Primarchs and Dark Gods.

 

 

 

...well don't hold us in suspense...? You're not going to hurt anyone's feelings having differing views on a fictional character/organisation.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

...well don't hold us in suspense...? You're not going to hurt anyone's feelings having differing views on a fictional character/organisation.

 

 

Well, you ready? Alright, here it comes....

 

Tzeentch is kind of a dick.

 

....

 

Yeah, I know, shocking right? But even by the standards of the other Dark Gods, however he and Slaanesh also tend to be the uniters: The most willing to work with others, even when it's their rabid enemies. The Chaos Gods screw themselves over constantly, but Tzeentch tends to have something resembling a plan in all that madness, as such he's the most likely to push Abaddons 10,000 year old long war to topple the Imperium. Tzeentch is also extraordinarily callous even by the standards of Dark Gods, he regards everyone...even Magnus...as a pawn in his long game and if he has to hurt the Crimson Kings dignity to get things done then he will have no problem physically forcing him to kneel.

 

Since the burning of Prospero Magnus himself has been painfully aware of this fact, and while Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Angron may be too prideful for such gestures to even cross their mind, Magnus would grit his teeth and bear it despite any arrogance he might hold. I might actually say things were a bit contrived if any of those three had kneeled instead(But that doesn't mean they wouldn't show their support in other ways either.) but for Magnus it makes the most sense to me that he would be the one to physically do it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I like it.

 

Kinda like Deadpool (and Loki) are among the few people to realize that they are comic book characters. Because DP is aware of it, he doesnt regard his actions as wrong. (this may change due to plot or author preference)

Magnus is aware of his true place, so is willing/able to play out his role.

 

WLK

[Loesh]

Essentially yes. It's worth noting that just because the Primarchs are helping him it doesn't mean Abaddons smarter then Magnus, a better swordsman then Fulgrim, Angrier then Angron, or more resilient then Mortarion. He wouldn't want their help is he could just do what they do on his own, nor does it mean that Abaddon is a better avatar of these gods then them or...even their respective mortal champions because that would be asinine. All it means is that Abaddon is at the head of the beast because he's the best person to unite the legions, and has an expansive legion of his own composed of parts of those legions, and that's why he's going to be the one pulling everyone together to break down the Imperium.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

 

...well don't hold us in suspense...? You're not going to hurt anyone's feelings having differing views on a fictional character/organisation.

 

 

Well, you ready? Alright, here it comes....

 

Tzeentch is kind of a dick.

 

....

 

Yeah, I know, shocking right? But even by the standards of the other Dark Gods, however he and Slaanesh also tend to be the uniters: The most willing to work with others, even when it's their rabid enemies. The Chaos Gods screw themselves over constantly, but Tzeentch tends to have something resembling a plan in all that madness, as such he's the most likely to push Abaddons 10,000 year old long war to topple the Imperium. Tzeentch is also extraordinarily callous even by the standards of Dark Gods, he regards everyone...even Magnus...as a pawn in his long game and if he has to hurt the Crimson Kings dignity to get things done then he will have no problem physically forcing him to kneel.

 

Since the burning of Prospero Magnus himself has been painfully aware of this fact, and while Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Angron may be too prideful for such gestures to even cross their mind, Magnus would grit his teeth and bear it despite any arrogance he might hold. I might actually say things were a bit contrived if any of those three had kneeled instead(But that doesn't mean they wouldn't show their support in other ways either.) but for Magnus it makes the most sense to me that he would be the one to physically do it.

 

 

That seems likely to me. Very Tzeentch. Or, at least, a significant angle in all things Tzeentchian.

 

On a general note, not to Loesh specifically, there's also the more simplistic side to this. As much as the series is going to be filled with esoteric Warpness (as readers of Talon have noted in spades), there's a core truth in just how Abaddon can conduct business. Not that he always does, just a certain way that he can.

 

"Give me what I want."

 

"No."

 

"Give me what I want or I'll destroy you."

 

"Sure, here's that thing you wanted."

 

Angron was banished by just one-tenth of a Space Marine Chapter. A very powerful Space Marine Chapter, but still numerically just 100 Space Marines, and that was including his Khornate honour guard of 12 Bloodthirsters. Mortarion? Even less than that. They were in corporeal reality, not on their home turf with all of the power and influence that comes with such a position, but... Well, there are no hard and fast rules on this, especially given all the Eye's metaphysics. 100 Space Marines is a lot of Space Marines. 100,000+ is... significantly more. That's the kind of fleet that levels planets, as has been proven plenty of times before. And that's not even counting their thralls, slaves, daemons, allies, Mechanicum forces, etc. which comprise a lot of Abaddon's overall strength.

 

That's the kind of approach that Abaddon's capable of. it would cost a great deal in time and effort sometimes, and he couldn't overuse it - nor is he naive and simple enough to want to overuse it - but it's certainly another weapon in his arsenal. Abaddon chooses his wars carefully, and won't always fight them in the obvious way. At no point is it ever as simple or silly as "Abaddon is 'better' than X, Y, or Z", but at the same time, there's a reason he's the force of the End Times and the doom of the Imperium. It's not "Those daemon primarch guys" whose names are whispered with dread on X thousand worlds.

 

The guy is used to getting his own way. That's because he gets his own way a lot of the time. I've posted plenty of long and detailed posts about the nature of the daemon primarchs and their ascension beyond mortal concerns, and at no point do I want to do them a disservice, but that doesn't mean they get what they want all the time, or are impossible to challenge. A daemon primarch is still ultimately just a Daemon Prince, with all the power - and all the limitations - that state entails. If people are going into the lore unsure how a force the size of the Black Legion (and led by the Chosen of Chaos) could get what it wants in the Eye of Terror, on one hand I hope to explain that, but on the other hand... it's also kind of obvious, at times. 

 

EDIT 1: It should also be noted that the "Here's what you want, now don't destroy me" approach would make for pretty poor narratives if it happened all the time (where's the story in that?), so it's likely that those are the ones that'll mostly happen off-screen. But that clout is still an element in all of his later dealings.

 

EDIT 2: And beyond that, the daemon primarchs aren't the utterly, perfectly favoured sons of the Gods, so to speak. Which we often assume, with Primarch Wow Factor, attributing the most importance to them because they're famous in the licence and Big Names. But Tzeentch is hardly going to defend Magnus and come to his aid if he's in trouble (at least, not in an obvious way). The Gods don't work like that, even with their most favoured champions. Plus, Chaos has already got what it wanted out of the daemon primarchs. It got them, and it got their Legions. The primarchs play the Great Game, largely above mortal relevance, and the Legions do what the Legions do. Job done. Now Chaos wants more.

[Loesh]

 

 

EDIT 2: And beyond that, the daemon primarchs aren't the utterly, perfectly favoured sons of the Gods, so to speak. Which we often assume, with Primarch Wow Factor, attributing the most importance to them because they're famous in the licence and Big Names. But Tzeentch is hardly going to defend Magnus and come to his aid if he's in trouble (at least, not in an obvious way). The Gods don't work like that, even with their most favoured champions. Plus, Chaos has already got what it wanted out of the daemon primarchs. It got them, and it got their Legions. The primarchs play the Great Game, largely above mortal relevance, and the Legions do what the Legions do. Job done. Now Chaos wants more.

 

 

I wanted to address this specifically, what I mean when I say 'Avatar of the Gods' I refer to them specifically as Icons or Divine Teachers rather then descendants. I hardly expect them to get what they want all the time(Inversely I wouldn't want a situation where they are constantly losing.) but they function better then Abbadon does as a facsimile, by his very nature as a undivided champion while he may appear as such to other people, he cannot emphasize the extremes of any one god in such an effective way. Purely because trying to do so would split his personality into a thousand different, twisting, confusing directions.

 

Which goes again back to while Fulgrim represents something for the Emperors Children to revere and aspire to, it is champions like Lucius and Eidolen that truly matter in the long war.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

EDIT 2: And beyond that, the daemon primarchs aren't the utterly, perfectly favoured sons of the Gods, so to speak. Which we often assume, with Primarch Wow Factor, attributing the most importance to them because they're famous in the licence and Big Names. But Tzeentch is hardly going to defend Magnus and come to his aid if he's in trouble (at least, not in an obvious way). The Gods don't work like that, even with their most favoured champions. Plus, Chaos has already got what it wanted out of the daemon primarchs. It got them, and it got their Legions. The primarchs play the Great Game, largely above mortal relevance, and the Legions do what the Legions do. Job done. Now Chaos wants more.

 

 

I wanted to address this specifically, what I mean when I say 'Avatar of the Gods' I refer to them specifically as Icons or Divine Teachers rather then descendants. I hardly expect them to get what they want all the time(Inversely I wouldn't want a situation where they are constantly losing.) but they function better then Abbadon does as a facsimile, by his very nature as a undivided champion while he may appear as such to other people, he cannot emphasize the extremes of any one god in such an effective way. Purely because trying to do so would split his personality into a thousand different, twisting, confusing directions.

 

Which goes again back to while Fulgrim represents something for the Emperors Children to revere and aspire to, it is champions like Lucius and Eidolen that truly matter in the long war.

 

 

I think pretty much exactly the same. Which, I suspect, is not a surprise.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

EDIT 2: And beyond that, the daemon primarchs aren't the utterly, perfectly favoured sons of the Gods, so to speak. Which we often assume, with Primarch Wow Factor, attributing the most importance to them because they're famous in the licence and Big Names. But Tzeentch is hardly going to defend Magnus and come to his aid if he's in trouble (at least, not in an obvious way). The Gods don't work like that, even with their most favoured champions. Plus, Chaos has already got what it wanted out of the daemon primarchs. It got them, and it got their Legions. The primarchs play the Great Game, largely above mortal relevance, and the Legions do what the Legions do. Job done. Now Chaos wants more.

 

 

I wanted to address this specifically, what I mean when I say 'Avatar of the Gods' I refer to them specifically as Icons or Divine Teachers rather then descendants. I hardly expect them to get what they want all the time(Inversely I wouldn't want a situation where they are constantly losing.) but they function better then Abbadon does as a facsimile, by his very nature as a undivided champion while he may appear as such to other people, he cannot emphasize the extremes of any one god in such an effective way. Purely because trying to do so would split his personality into a thousand different, twisting, confusing directions.

 

Which goes again back to while Fulgrim represents something for the Emperors Children to revere and aspire to, it is champions like Lucius and Eidolen that truly matter in the long war.

 

 

I think pretty much exactly the same. Which, I suspect, is not a surprise.

 

 

Not really, but I felt the clarification might be valuable all the same. Part of my interest in your books is that we appear to have similar views concerning the setting, but on the other hand I have a very, very, very narrow view of what I am and am not interested in and consume material accordingly. Though I tend to wind up researching huge swaths of the setting anyway purely by proximity.

 

Warhammer is very intricate, to say the least.

[Blackout2014]

 Quote: 

 

I wanted to address this specifically, what I mean when I say 'Avatar of the Gods' I refer to them specifically as Icons or Divine Teachers rather then descendants. I hardly expect them to get what they want all the time(Inversely I wouldn't want a situation where they are constantly losing.) but they function better then Abbadon does as a facsimile, by his very nature as a undivided champion while he may appear as such to other people, he cannot emphasize the extremes of any one god in such an effective way. Purely because trying to do so would split his personality into a thousand different, twisting, confusing directions.

 

Which goes again back to while Fulgrim represents something for the Emperors Children to revere and aspire to, it is champions like Lucius and Eidolen that truly matter in the long war.

 

End Quote

 

I can see that, I guess I just need to do some research on what being a Daemon Primarch actually means. I have, perhaps mistakenly, always assumed that they had more leeway than actual Daemons when it comes to realspace. 

 

It looks like I could be wrong. 

[Karthak]

 

 

 

That seems likely to me. Very Tzeentch. Or, at least, a significant angle in all things Tzeentchian.

 

On a general note, not to Loesh specifically, there's also the more simplistic side to this. As much as the series is going to be filled with esoteric Warpness (as readers of Talon have noted in spades), there's a core truth in just how Abaddon can conduct business. Not that he always does, just a certain way that he can.

 

"Give me what I want."

 

"No."

 

"Give me what I want or I'll destroy you."

 

"Sure, here's that thing you wanted."

 

Angron was banished by just one-tenth of a Space Marine Chapter. A very powerful Space Marine Chapter, but still numerically just 100 Space Marines, and that was including his Khornate honour guard of 12 Bloodthirsters. Mortarion? Even less than that. They were in corporeal reality, not on their home turf with all of the power and influence that comes with such a position, but... Well, there are no hard and fast rules on this, especially given all the Eye's metaphysics. 100 Space Marines is a lot of Space Marines. 100,000+ is... significantly more. That's the kind of fleet that levels planets, as has been proven plenty of times before. And that's not even counting their thralls, slaves, daemons, allies, Mechanicum forces, etc. which comprise a lot of Abaddon's overall strength.

 

That's the kind of approach that Abaddon's capable of. it would cost a great deal in time and effort sometimes, and he couldn't overuse it - nor is he naive and simple enough to want to overuse it - but it's certainly another weapon in his arsenal. Abaddon chooses his wars carefully, and won't always fight them in the obvious way. At no point is it ever as simple or silly as "Abaddon is 'better' than X, Y, or Z", but at the same time, there's a reason he's the force of the End Times and the doom of the Imperium. It's not "Those daemon primarch guys" whose names are whispered with dread on X thousand worlds.

 

The guy is used to getting his own way. That's because he gets his own way a lot of the time. I've posted plenty of long and detailed posts about the nature of the daemon primarchs and their ascension beyond mortal concerns, and at no point do I want to do them a disservice, but that doesn't mean they get what they want all the time, or are impossible to challenge. A daemon primarch is still ultimately just a Daemon Prince, with all the power - and all the limitations - that state entails. If people are going into the lore unsure how a force the size of the Black Legion (and led by the Chosen of Chaos) could get what it wants in the Eye of Terror, on one hand I hope to explain that, but on the other hand... it's also kind of obvious, at times. 

 

EDIT 1: It should also be noted that the "Here's what you want, now don't destroy me" approach would make for pretty poor narratives if it happened all the time (where's the story in that?), so it's likely that those are the ones that'll mostly happen off-screen. But that clout is still an element in all of his later dealings.

 

EDIT 2: And beyond that, the daemon primarchs aren't the utterly, perfectly favoured sons of the Gods, so to speak. Which we often assume, with Primarch Wow Factor, attributing the most importance to them because they're famous in the licence and Big Names. But Tzeentch is hardly going to defend Magnus and come to his aid if he's in trouble (at least, not in an obvious way). The Gods don't work like that, even with their most favoured champions. Plus, Chaos has already got what it wanted out of the daemon primarchs. It got them, and it got their Legions. The primarchs play the Great Game, largely above mortal relevance, and the Legions do what the Legions do. Job done. Now Chaos wants more.

 

Sounds to me like strong-arming someone who can't be permanently killed and still commands considerable power and influence within the Eye ("Perturabo just put the word out. Any Iron Warrior cooperating with the Black Legion will be made to regret it") is a tactic that could backfire spectacularly. After all, they have forever to plot their revenge.

[Loesh]

 

Sounds to me like strong-arming someone who can't be permanently killed and still commands considerable power and influence within the Eye ("Perturabo just put the word out. Any Iron Warrior cooperating with the Black Legion will be made to regret it") is a tactic that could backfire spectacularly. After all, they have forever to plot their revenge.

 

 

 

Well yes, but note that while the Primarchs are immortal their assets are not. Their followers and troops can very much die and stay dead. If you can't hurt someone, the next best thing is to hurt what they care about.

 

That said, i'm not convinced this would be something Abaddon would do, on the grounds that Abaddon is not stupid. Aside from the While he can push around the Thrice Cursed all he wants he likely knows the other Chaos Legions still hold power. Despite being a shattered Chaos Legion the World Eaters still mustered 50,000 troops when the call to arms came down the chain, fully half actual legion size. Lucius is noted as leading a Warhost not a Warband, the Death Guard have entire plague fleets, even the Thousand Sons, arguably the most broken ones, can muster a lot of sorcerous power when they are ticked off enough.

 

The Black Legion might win but it would be embroiling themselves into a bloody and nasty civil war with Chaos that might even cause the Black Legion to break from within, and Abaddon knows that. So what does he do for things like Warhosts? He does what every Warlord in the Eye does on a much bigger scale: He trades favors, I scratch your back you scratch mine, quid pro quo, and he avoids wasting resources on needless fighting with other champions.

[A D-B]

Sounds to me like strong-arming someone who can't be permanently killed and still commands considerable power and influence within the Eye ("Perturabo just put the word out. Any Iron Warrior cooperating with the Black Legion will be made to regret it") is a tactic that could backfire spectacularly. After all, they have forever to plot their revenge.

 

 

 

 

Oh, absolutely. And on one hand, Chaos warbands pushing each other too far is basically a huge slice of the daily pie in the Eye of Terror, but ultimately, like I mentioned above, Abaddon can do that... but probably doesn't very often. It's a key shift in the tone of the narrative here, though. Before it was "How could Abaddon ever challenge the daemon primarchs?", which was probably the wrong* angle to look at it from. Now it's "Abaddon absolutely could challenge them - or anyone in the Eye - he's just not childish, and chooses his battles wisely".

 

In terms of Space Marines alone, the 100 Grey Knights that banished Angron was an immensely powerful concentration of Adeptus Astartes might. Abaddon doesn't have 10 times that number, or even 100 times that many Space Marines. He has forces likely in excess of over a thousand times the number that banished a daemon primarch and that primarch's elite Bloodthirster honour guard. And that's just his Space Marines. Not even counting allied Legions and warbands that would jump on board with whatever he was arranging, or the fleets he commands, the slave hordes, the Mechanicum, etc. The scale of just what's at the Warmaster's command is pretty breathtaking. Which is why it's important the narrative shifts.

 

And none of that even takes into account the idea that there's more going on than the simple realities of military might. Every daemon primarch will treat differently with Abaddon, with a range of reactions. There's a tiny bit of it mentioned in the BL supplement, and if there'd been more time to communicate while we were both writing about the Black Legion, I'm sure there'd be more references involved, but the supplement only took a few weeks to write and had a sharp deadline, so we did what we could.

 

 

 

 

* -- Actually, it's not wrong. It's a perfectly valid angle, it just has some clear answers that people don't always reach for. Even so, nothing's that clean-cut in the Eye, especially when you're descending to a world that's controlled by the whims of a demigod. 

[Loesh]

Also, I think it's worth noting that with size, comes logistics and the Black Legion has a lot of logistics to it compared to your average World Eater warband. Promotions aren't just a matter of killing the guy ontop of you, you have to actually be competent. Nor is it possible for Abbadon to just point a spot on the map and muster the entire Chaos Legion in one spot, much like the Legions of the great crusade it's split up into dozens of pieces with commanding bodies of their own dedicated to certain tasks and functions within that legion, while it's the biggest army Chaos has got it's also the slowest army Chaos has got to get moving.

 

Stated simply, Abaddon doesn't have the time to crush everyone that gets in his way and make them wear the black when an exchange of currency, artifacts, or even planets can solve the problem and get them to do what he wants them to do: March on the Imperium. That's why the Ezekylon exist, to act as a council to run things because while being a dictator simplifies things on paper there are in fact dozens of nuances to running an organized government and military that one man only has so many hours in the day to tend to.

[Vesper]

And all that is taking place in the Eye of Terror. It's probably a nightmare to organize anything of that scale in such a place.

[Loesh]

And all that is taking place in the Eye of Terror. It's probably a nightmare to organize anything of that scale in such a place.

 

It's a nightmare to organize anything even outside the Eye of Terror, the Traitor legions don't have access to the relatively stable Astropaths so the only thing you've got is the dangerous art of sorcery. Either that or travel in person which could take hours or centuries depending on the fickle nature of the warp.

 

I play my Emperors Children Warband as part of what organization the greater legion has left under Lucius, but all that means is my Warband leader might hear from up the chain once in two to ten years if he's been tasked with something that takes him apart from the Warhost proper. Things like the internet or phones that we use in our daily lives simply do not exist in the paradoxically more advanced and yet in many ways much more crude Imperium of man due to how technology has been upkept since the Dark Age of Technology.

[A D-B]

And all that is taking place in the Eye of Terror. It's probably a nightmare to organize anything of that scale in such a place.

 

 

 

And all that is taking place in the Eye of Terror. It's probably a nightmare to organize anything of that scale in such a place.

 

It's a nightmare to organize anything even outside the Eye of Terror, the Traitor legions don't have access to the relatively stable Astropaths so the only thing you've got is the dangerous art of sorcery. Either that or travel in person which could take hours or centuries depending on the fickle nature of the warp.

 

I play my Emperors Children Warband as part of what organization the greater legion has left under Lucius, but all that means is my Warband leader might hear from up the chain once in two to ten years if he's been tasked with something that takes him apart from the Warhost proper. Things like the internet or phones that we use in our daily lives simply do not exist in the paradoxically more advanced and yet in many ways much more crude Imperium of man due to how technology has been upkept since the Dark Age of Technology.

 

 

Running out of likes, but... Yes. All of that. 

[Loesh]

When it comes down to it though, this discussion is a repeat of one that has happened in a thousand different places(In a thousand different parts.) and I feel the best way to handle Abaddons relationships with the Primarchs is to not worry too much about it.

 

I really like the Emperors Children as pretty much everything I say I do would tip someone off too fairly quickly when it concerns the 40k fandom. I find them the most badass, the most interesting, and the most unique of the Chaos Legions. That said everything we've just discussed is not new per say, just poorly explained until recently and not often handled, and no amount of Emperors Children fanboyism I can generate could change that in the fluff the Black Legion has always been the biggest threat to the Imperium even above the Primarchs.

 

That said: Devram Korda is still the leader of the Chosen of Abaddon, so Slaanesh is best god confirmed. Nyuh.

[Balthamal]

I'd agree with that. Given the understanding Abaddon has developed throughout his exile in the Eye, it's not unreasonable to assume he's worked out the best way of dealing with the Primarchs. For someone who has his eyes set firmly on the prize of winning the Long War, not the accumulation of power within the Eye itself, I wouldn't be shocked to see it portrayed as a king of "Ok I know your Legions still look up to you for the most part, so give me what I want because through that you'll get what you want" just on a much more nuanced level. 

 

I'm actually hoping that the next book or two shows some of this interaction since I think there's potential for some fantastic scenes there, especially to demonstrate Abaddon's character growth. And as mentioned before "they all bowed, some willingly, some grudgingly and one who was brought to his knees" I could see Lorgar being willing given his previous for furthering the powers of the Warp etc etc. Perturabo? Angron? Fulgrim? I'd say they range from possibly to no chance in hell, Fulgrim especially since I don't think his pride would let him bend the knee. Magnus we know ends up being put on his knees by Khayon so I think we can rule out a lot of scenarios including the rest of the Primarchs ganging up on him and so on. That I think will be a very powerful portrayal, the symbolism of choosing an adopted brother over a blood father. Mortarion......I have no idea. But it will be great either way.

[Loesh]

Of course, which isn't to say I like it mind you, in fact I think it's an actively bad way to portray Chaos and the potential it holds by having someone like Abaddon at it's head. But it is what it is, and I understand why it is that way.

 

I personally would not like such a scene to be spelled out, not just for Fulgrim, but even for Angron the Primarch I like the least, the symbolism would not appeal to me either(Then again, outside Silent Hill 2 and classical art i'v yet to be shown symbolism that's done very well rather then having been beaten over the head with it.) so there's that.

 

Nevertheless, if Fulgrim shows up i'd like to read about it just for the sake of adding something else to my archive of knowledge.

[Balthamal]

I'm on the flip side to that coin. I like the contrast presented of everything possible with the power of the Warp at one's fingertips just not being able to "touch the dark side" as it were. Or as I prefer to call it "the genie contrast" - Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty living space. ADB covered the whole concept really well in one of his blog posts back when the novel was being written about the temptations to dip his toe into the water and take hold of the power at his fingertips.

 

I think so long as the scenes added more to the "core" characters I wouldn't have a problem seeing Abaddon standing over the Primarchs, just as I'm fine with the whole idea of the fact he's still mortal gives him a distinct advantage over a daemon prince. However if they were just included to fill pages I'd rather they were kept away. But still saying that I'd love to see something between Telemachon and Fulgrim in much the same way I want to see Khayon let rip his grievances with Magnus for leading them to the precipice of damnation and Ahriman for applying the coup de grace. Maybe as more of the Nine Legions gain representation within the Black Legion, like Valicar for example, the potential for other angles will become apparent

[Conn Eremon]

Mortarion......I have no idea. But it will be great either way.

According to the book's glimpses of the future style of an epilogue, Mortarion came closest of all to ending the Black Legion dream through his Holy Plagues.

 

He was not the one who was forced to kneel, which sounds to me like Abaddon won Mort's begrudging respect and was eventually a willing supporter.

 

But holy hell, do I want to see Mortarion and his sons bring Abaddon and his would-be Legion to their knees, just for that insanely badass moment where Abaddon stands back up.

 

Way I see it, Abaddon has the favor of the Gods. The Daemon Primarchs are now limited as being extensions of those Gods, though unlimited in other aspects.

 

But Abaddon was not their chosen from the start. He had to earn it. And he had to continue to prove that he alone deserved it, forever.

 

The Daemon Primarchs seem best suited to test Abaddon and prove his worthiness. Not by being just subservient. If Abaddon could be brought down, then it would prove he was unworthy. So it isn't just tests to see if he is strong enough. It's a never-ending battle of wits, for survival's sake. If Abaddon slips, he's gone.

 

Which again, doesn't mean he can't lose. He just can't bend, lest they break him.

[Loesh]

I'm on the flip side to that coin. I like the contrast presented of everything possible with the power of the Warp at one's fingertips just not being able to "touch the dark side" as it were. Or as I prefer to call it "the genie contrast" - Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty living space. ADB covered the whole concept really well in one of his blog posts back when the novel was being written about the temptations to dip his toe into the water and take hold of the power at his fingertips.

 

I think so long as the scenes added more to the "core" characters I wouldn't have a problem seeing Abaddon standing over the Primarchs, just as I'm fine with the whole idea of the fact he's still mortal gives him a distinct advantage over a daemon prince. However if they were just included to fill pages I'd rather they were kept away. But still saying that I'd love to see something between Telemachon and Fulgrim in much the same way I want to see Khayon let rip his grievances with Magnus for leading them to the precipice of damnation and Ahriman for applying the coup de grace. Maybe as more of the Nine Legions gain representation within the Black Legion, like Valicar for example, the potential for other angles will become apparent

 

Would that be something Telemachon would do? I don't know that much about the character so I couldn't say for sure, but the other legion I think most likely to dislike their Primarch would probably be the World Eaters, the Emperors Children found largely no fault in Fulgrim for turning to Slaanesh where the World Eaters didn't terribly like Angron even when they were loyalist. For one reason or another, a couple of them felt he was a broken Primarch and the implantation of the Butchers Nails did....not good things...to World Eaters to say the least.

[Balthamal]

Sorry that came across a bit wrong what I should have said was Telemachon electing to stay with the Black Legion when clearly he still feels some reverence towards Fulgrim as shown by his behaviour towards the clone. Gold mine of potential among it all

[Loesh]

Sorry that came across a bit wrong what I should have said was Telemachon electing to stay with the Black Legion when clearly he still feels some reverence towards Fulgrim as shown by his behaviour towards the clone. Gold mine of potential among it all

 

Ah yeah, but I do get your point. The Black Legion serves as a good pool for the disenfranchised, the angry, and the most vengeful of marines. Which is largely why I only dislike their place in the story but enjoy the legion itself, it's rather cool to have a CSM force devoted towards the Long War specifically.