why doesn't anyone take the dwcs?

[aura_enchanted]

I'm aware of the issues surrounding the dw apothecary but the standard bearer is quite a prize (bearing the dw banner or chapter banner).

 

Since the squad has no sgt they could be paired with a chaplain, Libby, belial or thundernator comp master and grant you a lot of extra attacks in a melee oriented squad.

 

I don't see a downside beyond the fact that you can only take 5 in a squad. And if you paired them with a squad of knights they'd even be morr obscene

[DA_WarM]

It depends what you need to do with this squad.  The standard bearer can fulfill different roles depending on the banner used.

I use the DWCS with a banner of fortitude which gives a 12" feel no pain all around.   Last game it saved me 4 terminators, which offset the cost by 85 points.  A champion could also be useful with a S +2 AP3 weapon 5 points.

[Caldria]

It's funny, seeing this now - I've just started planning out some conversions for making a DWCS myself. But I'm struggling to decide whether a banner is worth it (I had planned on using these guys with a TDA Int. Chap to deepstrike near and support Azrael and co. in a drop pod). Based on that I had first thought of the standard of fortitude, but dayumn 80 points : /

But 5 points for the champion for S6 ap2 at I4 is fantastic and I'd say almost a must buy for the unit if you ever plan on getting stuck into combat. (the Int. Chap makes him even more brutal)

Since I was planning on using the FNP banner I hadn't even thought of the apothecary. Either way you'd want a hammer/shield on the banner bearer to help protect it I reckon. Then if you opt to deepstrike these guys, adding a cyclone launcher into the mix could be awesome with split fire/twinlinked - then giving that guy a hammer/shield too so that its making the most of the shooting and close combat. That's already 2 out of 2 with hammer and shields though - both are to protect the more important equipment in the unit (banner and heavy weapon). You may as well add in a 3rd hammer/shield on a regular guy to act as your meatshield and be the first casualty. That leave's one guy unequipped (you could just go ahead and add in the last hammer/shield) only thing is that the whole unit is now really expensive, albeit, a lot tougher.

These are just my thoughts anyway as I've not run the DWCS as of yet. I'm super interested to see other people's loadouts/suggestions myself.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The problem with DWCS is that it was non scoring until recently,now it is not superscoring. The price is a bit steep once you start adding in all the toys and sky rockets to the 300 plus points... in a DW army everything is nicely put into 250-ish points which also makes them hardrr to fit without gymnastics.

[Caldria]

I dont know if I'd ever play pure deathwing myself, too low model count - and terminators are just... not worth their points at the moment. But If I were to use the DWCS I'd use it in a mixedwing list, where they would be the only TDA models (and ofc the TDA HQ to unlock them, like an Int. Chap)- used alongside tac marines in rhinos/pods and bikes.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I dont know if I'd ever play pure deathwing myself, too low model count - and terminators are just... not worth their points at the moment. But If I were to use the DWCS I'd use it in a mixedwing list, where they would be the only TDA models (and ofc the TDA HQ to unlock them, like an Int. Chap)- used alongside tac marines in rhinos/pods and bikes.

Take at look at my battle-reps about footslogging deathwing. It might change your mind about pure deathwing.

[Cactus]

I've used the Deathwing command squad with Sacred Standard of Fortitude with a footslogging/teleporting Deathwing army, a 4th company gunline and a 4th company/Deathwing mechanised force. Always with two or three storm shields, Deathwing champion and a heavy weapon. If, like me, you favour infantry armies with staying power it works beautifully.

 

Chaplain Lucifer is spot on with the problems encountered when trying to actually fit this beastly support unit into an army list. I haven't played enough of 7th edition to say whether being merely a scoring unit means they could safely take the place of a Deathwing terminator squad with objective secured. Maybe. They do fit better with a footslogging Deathwing list than one with land raiders, and land raiders are very popular which I think accounts for large part of why we don't see the command squad discussed very often.

 

For armies that aren't solely Ravenwing or Deathwing I much prefer them to the power armoured command squad. They make a very resilient support unit that can counter charge with real punch.

 

aura_enchanted, in my most recent game with the Deathwing command squad I did pair them with the knights, both in Deathwing land raiders, alongside tactical squads in rhinos and an outflanking Ravenwing squadron (2500 points gives you a lot of options!) against tau with eldar allies. While the command squad beat up a farseer and his wraithguard retinue they were also saving a tactical marine here or there which really helped me keep control of the objectives. Meanwhile the knights went straight up the middle. When the riptide, piranhas and crisis suits finally destroyed the land raider five knights took the entirety of the tau's subsequent shooting phase in the face. It took until literally the very last shot he had to bring down the last of the knights because they had Feel no Pain from the command squad nearby, and those were shots he sorely needed to be using to shift my tactical squads, also within FnP range, off the objectives.

 

I think the psychological benefits of some unit choices are often overlooked.

[Brother dean]

Because this is the era of Fast Firepower and Ravenwing is all I have been playing lately.  I regularly used "Belials command squad" under the last codex and I have plans to bring it back in this edition, since they made it "scoring" again in 7th.

[Caldria]

 

I dont know if I'd ever play pure deathwing myself, too low model count - and terminators are just... not worth their points at the moment. But If I were to use the DWCS I'd use it in a mixedwing list, where they would be the only TDA models (and ofc the TDA HQ to unlock them, like an Int. Chap)- used alongside tac marines in rhinos/pods and bikes.

Take at look at my battle-reps about footslogging deathwing. It might change your mind about pure deathwing.

 

Hey man, thanks, I had a look.

 

I noticed you used the knights often (don't want to derail this thread, but they seemed to work fairly well for you, they are a unit whose models I absolutely love but just can't find a way to make them work, im really surprised to see you deepstruck them rather than delivering them via landraider - and I will admit I did like your lists a lot, although one of the other reasons I hadnt really been a fan of pure deathwing is that I'd like some variety in the list with models, some vehicles and other non infantry units etc.)

 

steering back on course - up until now most people have viewed the knights and command squad as either/or, and never both in the same list - what are your views on that? and would it be advised against in a mixed wing list?

 

Like Cactus says above, the knights, with their T5 and the FnP from the command squad, are a rather scary prospect - just sooo many points tied up into that. I too would love to use a command squad with fort banner as the central "hub" of my army - which seems to favour deathwing deepstriking and anything mobile enough to fall under the banners influence when needed. I will mention though that I have a rather large dislike for Belial as an HQ. Whenever I've needed to unlock DW as troops I've opted for  Azrael (possibly another reason I favour mixed wing lists) Besides his scatterless deep strike im just so dissapointed with him - because beyond that and unlocking deathwing he really is meant to be a beatstick and he just isnt. But that scatterless deepstrike with the fort banner seems like a really great combo - being able to put it where it's needed on turn 1 or 2.

 

What about having azrael and vets drop pod in turn one into the thick of it - and have him take the reserves manip warlord trait. While advancing with rhinos and some black knights. Then turn 2 you bring in the command squad on the pod's or black knights homing beacons to grant feel no pain to everyone around, At the same time 1-2 squads of ravenwing bikers/attack bikes come in from reserves. basically all converging around your main point of attack that Azrael initiated. You could even keep the black knights near azrael's attempted drop zone so that the command squad can come in on their beacon on turn 1 with azrael, giving his unit and the black knights FnP. Then turn 2 your melta bikes come in hopefully for a nice 1-2 punch.

 

Sorry for the wall of text, this has kinda gotten me excited about my termies again.

 

 

[SvenONE]

I am in love with the concept of a command squad, but I think they are at odds with their root concept.  To me the command squad is basically supposed to be extra wounds and extra attacks for your commander to increase that model's effectiveness.  I'll use the Dark Eldar Archons or a Necron Destroyer Lord/Overlord as an example.  These models are really good in close combat, either through sheer volume of attacks and initiative, or just the fact they simply hit hard.  They are also a BARGAIN for what they can do.  They are also commonly found surrounded by models that are cheap enough to eat wounds, Warriors, Wraiths, Wracks, etc.  This is one of the reasons that the Azrael/Vet lists seem to be taking off.  Cheap wounds, fast delivery, fair number of attacks.

 

While DA has some unique command squads, they go against those core principles.  They are all too expensive to throw away, and they become too threatening to not draw a TON of fire.  Not to mention that if you give them a banner they basically become the largest target on the table.

 

Regular CS has cost effectiveness.

RWCS has mobility, durability, great weaponry, great close combat attacks, and good rules

DWCS is just has the ability to make itself more expensive by bringing a banner.

 

You can stick a regular banner of devastation command squad in a land raider, and it may cost more than a DWCS with a banner, but it's far more durable and far more effective.

 

DWCS is a nice idea, but poorly implemented (like so many other things).

[aura_enchanted]

I am in love with the concept of a command squad, but I think they are at odds with their root concept. To me the command squad is basically supposed to be extra wounds and extra attacks for your commander to increase that model's effectiveness. I'll use the Dark Eldar Archons or a Necron Destroyer Lord/Overlord as an example. These models are really good in close combat, either through sheer volume of attacks and initiative, or just the fact they simply hit hard. They are also a BARGAIN for what they can do. They are also commonly found surrounded by models that are cheap enough to eat wounds, Warriors, Wraiths, Wracks, etc. This is one of the reasons that the Azrael/Vet lists seem to be taking off. Cheap wounds, fast delivery, fair number of attacks.

 

While DA has some unique command squads, they go against those core principles. They are all too expensive to throw away, and they become too threatening to not draw a TON of fire. Not to mention that if you give them a banner they basically become the largest target on the table.

 

Regular CS has cost effectiveness.

RWCS has mobility, durability, great weaponry, great close combat attacks, and good rules

DWCS is just has the ability to make itself more expensive by bringing a banner.

 

You can stick a regular banner of devastation command squad in a land raider, and it may cost more than a DWCS with a banner, but it's far more durable and far more effective.

 

DWCS is a nice idea, but poorly implemented (like so many other things).

I feel that the dwcs could make a good slow moving deathstar if it have the right support system. Such as Ezekiel and a terminator secondary hq to support and provides the buffs

 

The dwcs would also make for the best anchor unit. In a turtle strategy because of their superior saves and slow nature.

 

For example you could take a void shield generator, with a dwcs with pc's/cml and the fort banner

 

Toss in some long range firepower and you have a lovely little bubble of guns. This list is impractical for anything other than pta but it's not a bad idea.

 

The dwcs could also be strong vs armies with low ld with bad cc. Like mt, am, orks, or some csm lists. A melee hit team with asmodai or a comp master would just Faceroll so many of the things thanks to fear, the chapter banner/dw banner and all of the adamantium will to shield them from debuffs

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Another problem of the command squad is taht is limited to only 5 elements... Only 5 can be a bad situation for a unit you want as resilient as possible.

[aura_enchanted]

Another problem of the command squad is taht is limited to only 5 elements... Only 5 can be a bad situation for a unit you want as resilient as possible.

yea I hope in the next codex they get bumped up to a 10 man team. That'd solve lots of headaches.

 

Anyway I bought one to see how they do. I'll be pairing them with a lrc and a terminator captain and see if the boat floats okay.

 

Just gotta paint em first.

 

Also I totally stuck a jump pack on a relic bearer. It looks so positively lols

[Prot]

I kept trying to talk myself into building a DWCS, but it still hasn't happened. The only way I feel it's worth doing is if you can go big with it. I like the idea of the Fortitude Banner.

 

Belial has a homer, so I imagine if you can select the other units to come in off him in turn two you have guaranteed FnP? I haven't tried this, just theorized it.

 

At the end of the day everytime I play Maelstrom, I tie him to superscoring termies and landing him in the mouth of the enemy, stealing victory points is extremely annoying to your opponent and can't be underestimated because they must be wiped to either stop them from stealing, or contesting.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That's their issue right there all right, they cost the same as normal DW termies but are noticably worse until you pay for (generally) overpriced upgrades. I'm making some right now but only for the Rule of Cool, not because they are actually worth it on the tabletop. Luckily for me my current game friends are into cool more than facepunching.

[aura_enchanted]

That's their issue right there all right, they cost the same as normal DW termies but are noticably worse until you pay for (generally) overpriced upgrades. I'm making some right now but only for the Rule of Cool, not because they are actually worth it on the tabletop. Luckily for me my current game friends are into cool more than facepunching.

since they have no sgt you can make em a squad of actual thundernators

[Pigshead]

That's their issue right there all right, they cost the same as normal DW termies but are noticably worse until you pay for (generally) overpriced upgrades. I'm making some right now but only for the Rule of Cool, not because they are actually worth it on the tabletop. Luckily for me my current game friends are into cool more than facepunching.

 

I'm in that fortunate position myself. There's one guy who always bring bucket loads of cheese and also seems to have ridiculous dice luck, but the rest of them tend to play fluffy armies 90% of the time, which means I get to use things like my DWCS.

 

My personal favorite use for the DWCS is as a center piece to a DW army, with the fort banner. It usually pays for itself during a game.